104 Double Suicide

[Minkin]

Criterion Contraption

[YnEoS]

Interesting film, and quite a discovery for me. Superficially this is almost the definition of the type of films I usually can't stand, high emphasis on stylized sets and an uninvolved story. But I do agree there's more going on than this film, and I think Herr Shreck and others have rightly focused on the Kuroko and the close ups on their facial reactions as being a key aspect that elevates this film above that.

Despite the being mostly un-invested with the plot, but I did find it very easy to watch. Despite the dramatic form consisting almost entirely of reveals and explanations of motivations it did kind of hook me in as the information slowly built and grew more complex, and the pace of revealing the information steadily picked up. The end worked well for me too by playing off of the sort of inevitability and ritualization of tragedy in these sorts of things.

I probably could use a second viewing after getting a bit more cultural context at this one. I can't say I loved it but I'm intrigued and its sort of been itching at me since watching it.

(As a possibly tangential note: when watching this film the first thing that popped into my head were some stuff Fei Mu wrote about Chinese opera performances, but when I was reading about this film everyone seemed to be talking about Brecht's alienation effect, which I've heard thrown around a lot but never really researched much myself. And this made me research further and I was pretty delighted to find out that the actor Mei Lanfang who inspired Brecht to write about the alienation effect also acted in a Fei Mu film. Don't know how relevant this is since I'm not too familiar with the history of Japanese and Chinese theatrical traditions or how closely tied together they are, or if Shinoda was consciously pulling from Brecht's alienation effect when making this film.)

[Michael Kerpan]

Double Suicide is based on a bunraku (puppet) play written by Chikamatsu around 1700. The stylization mostly arises from this indigenous theatrical background. When Shinoda spoke about this film at Harvard 10 years ago, he didn't mention Brecht as an influence. (He was wonderful, he spent about 90 minutes answering questions before and after the screening).

[knives]

Which is not to say of course that the effects aren't related (and it certainly sounds like Brecht was influenced by even if he may never have been an influence of).

[Gregory]

There are some long-observed similarities there, but in terms of actual influence, for Brecht I believe it came far more from Chinese theatre than from any of the Japanese forms.

[zedz]

Which is not to say of course that the effects aren't related (and it certainly sounds like Brecht was influenced by even if he may never have been an influence of).

Well, Shinoda's big decision in this film to acknowledge that original theatrical context and make it visible - when it's entirely unnecessary, since there aren't any puppets - is definitely related to what Brecht was talking about. There are plenty of other film adaptations of Chikamatsu that aren't haunted by shadowy puppetmasters!

What I love in this film is how it's operating on these distinct, different levels yet somehow finding a way to get them to work together in a weird kind of harmony. The actual narrative, the Brechtian staging and the spectacular (New Wave) visual stylization all come from different eras and realms, and at a logical level they'd all seem to work against one another, but Shinoda manages to synthesize them into something coherent and compelling.

[YnEoS]

Certainly there's a huge gap between the bunraku puppet theater that inspired this film, and the Chinese opera style that inspired Brecht. But from reading his essay, it seems like Brecht was concerned with creating an aesthetics for an epic theater. And his focus is more on the stylization of performance, and how an interruption of the performance wouldn't hinder or interrupt the overall effect, because the viewer isn't under the illusion that what they are watching is real. And from this perspective I can see how these two very different theatrical traditions might comparable in terms of different forms of epic theater.

I'm sure Shinoda had more culturally specific ideas in mind when creating this film and was probably not consciously thinking of Brecht. But there are certainly aspects of this film that are interesting when analyzed with Brecht's alienation effect in mind. And that's probably why Brecht is so frequently invoked by westerners with little knowledge of Japanese theatrical traditions who can't provide a more culturally specific interpretation. But of course its still possible for the film to fall under Brecht's conception of epic theater without Shinoda having been actively trying to invoke Brecht while creating the film.


Though if anyone here is an expert in Japanese and Chinese theatrical traditions, it would be fascinating to know how much they've interacted and influenced each other. And perhaps figure out if its possible to figure out if the stylistic tendencies in Chinese opera that inspired Brecht have also had any influence or been influenced by Japanese theatrical forms. Or perhaps it was just that Brecht was trying to describe certain tendencies in all kinds of non-natural theater forms and in it's broadness could be applied to many disparate theatrical traditions.

[knives]

And certainly Shinoda uses that performance aspect too as when the gangster flips out which is a drastic change from the more sedate and mannered performance style up until that point.

[Dragoon En Regalia]

I've figured that Brecht used distancing devices for political reasons in particular, which isn't what Shinoda would have been applying with this film (that's something Oshima might have considered, actually).

[Mr Sausage]

Though if anyone here is an expert in Japanese and Chinese theatrical traditions, it would be fascinating to know how much they've interacted and influenced each other. And perhaps figure out if its possible to figure out if the stylistic tendencies in Chinese opera that inspired Brecht have also had any influence or been influenced by Japanese theatrical forms. Or perhaps it was just that Brecht was trying to describe certain tendencies in all kinds of non-natural theater forms and in it's broadness and could be applied to many disparate theatrical traditions.

I'm far from being an expert in any of the arts of the far east, but I can tell you that Japanese dramatic forms were really attractive to European high modernists, Yeats and Pound especially. Indeed, Pound helped translate certain Japanese plays and Yeats tried to create a drama that mimicked them (as set out in his essay Certain Noble Plays of Japan). So the influence was certainly floating around experimental literary circles at the time Brecht was active. It may well have helped form his own odd sense of drama.

[Gregory]

I've figured that Brecht used distancing devices for political reasons in particular, which isn't what Shinoda would have been applying with this film (that's something Oshima might have considered, actually).

I don't think it's as simple as "political reasons" might suggest. You may be interested in Brecht's essay "Alienation Effects in Chinese Acting," in Brecht on Theatre: The Development of an Aesthetic.

[knives]

Yeah, as much as Brecht was interested in the immediately political he was also concerned with the, for lack of a better word, psychological implications of reaction. Like with most things Walter Benjamin had a great essay discussing some of this within epic theater.

[Shrew]

While some of the stylization comes from bunraku puppet shows, there's a good deal of modern elements (the breaking of the 4th wall, particularly in the opening scene on the telephone) that are obviously coming from someplace different. While Shinoda may not have been expressly following Brecht, I don't think it's too far a stretch to say that he was using Brechtian techniques. Film and theater certainly would have been full of Brechtian-influenced works (see Oshima's Death by Hanging from the previous year for another Japanese case), so even if Shinoda wasn't familiar with Brecht's writings, it's likely that he would have been exposed to the ideas in some second-hand form. I think this is a case of a director finding sympathetic techniques in both modern and traditional dramatic practices, and then using them to augment each other.

As for Brecht and Chinese acting, I read a study years ago (a chapter of Occidentalism, I think?) arguing that Brecht's understanding of Mei Lanfang's acting was clearly a misreading, but one that made possible Brecht's ideas. I don't know enough about Chinese opera to really argue, but I think it's unlikely that alienation in Brecht's sense was a goal of the performance. Same goes for Pound, who published a translation of Chinese poetry based purely on his belief that Chinese characters were completely imagistic. They aren't, but that thinking had a big effect on Pound and imagism, and therefore on Modernism in literature as a whole.

[otis]

As for Brecht and Chinese acting, I read a study years ago (a chapter of Occidentalism, I think?) arguing that Brecht's understanding of Mei Lanfang's acting was clearly a misreading, but one that made possible Brecht's ideas. I don't know enough about Chinese opera to really argue, but I think it's unlikely that alienation in Brecht's sense was a goal of the performance. Same goes for Pound, who published a translation of Chinese poetry based purely on his belief that Chinese characters were completely imagistic. They aren't, but that thinking had a big effect on Pound and imagism, and therefore on Modernism in literature as a whole.

This is also covered in Eric Hayot's book Chinese Dreams: Pound, Brecht, Tel Quel.

[Mr Sausage]

As for Brecht and Chinese acting, I read a study years ago (a chapter of Occidentalism, I think?) arguing that Brecht's understanding of Mei Lanfang's acting was clearly a misreading, but one that made possible Brecht's ideas. I don't know enough about Chinese opera to really argue, but I think it's unlikely that alienation in Brecht's sense was a goal of the performance. Same goes for Pound, who published a translation of Chinese poetry based purely on his belief that Chinese characters were completely imagistic. They aren't, but that thinking had a big effect on Pound and imagism, and therefore on Modernism in literature as a whole.

While not the study you're citing, that's exactly Harold Bloom's Anxiety of Influence theory, where a writer misinterprets another writer or artist so strongly that the misinterpretation ends up becoming an original creation, allowing the writer to say something new.

[jindianajonz]

I hope this isn't too off topic, but I actually never heard of Brecht before coming to this forum and even now my only real understanding of him is that he would rather "keep you out" rather than "suck you in", so to speak. Does anyone have a recommendation for a quick and dirty primer on how I can familiarize myself with him more, either through films or essays or something less than a full length book?

[matrixschmatrix]

The commentary on Criterion's Threepenny Opera release is actually a pretty solid starting place, though there's a vast pool of theory that probably needs a textbook or two to address fully.

[Michael Kerpan]

Best introduction to Brecht -- read (or watch, if possible) Mother Courage and Caucasian Chalk Circle and Threepenny Opera and Galileo. Then look at some theory. ;-}

[knives]

I'll second Kerpan. Threepenny Opera is great, but I've found of his theatrical work Galileo makes everything ever so clear. I highly recommend Losey's adaptation after you've read the play even if it may be flawed to some as an adaptation. He's surprisingly easy to get into compared to a lot of his contemporaries and seemed to have a good deal of fun messing around. I'd also suggest (a second time) Benjamin's essay on epic theater found in Illuminations as a strong secondary source.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

I'll second Kerpan. Threepenny Opera is great, but I've found of his theatrical work Galileo makes everything ever so clear.

Heartily agree with this. I saw Gambon in the lead some time back. The scene with the dressing of the pope where he goes from reasoned humanistic debate to the incarnation of the Holy Catholic Church in all its pomp and brutal and repressive power -"show him the instruments'" (of torture) - is both brilliantly didactic and chilling.
And hey Double Suicide is great too.

[Michael Kerpan]

The best of Brecht, like Double Suicide, packs a pretty powerful emotional punch, despite the use of "alienation".