856-859 The Before Trilogy

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solaris72
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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#101 Post by solaris72 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:11 pm

domino harvey wrote:But will they adhere to the visionary canon of the Before Trilogy Expansion Universe?
You jest, but there's at least one piece of Beforeverse fanfic.

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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#102 Post by cdnchris » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:42 pm

I haven't been too harsh on ::kogonada. His essays rarely offer anything I'd come close to calling deep insight but at worst they may appeal and work for those that are newcomers to film in general and I admittedly give them a shrug and a pass. But what he puts together for this set is ridiculous. It has audio excerpts from a phone interview he conducted with Linklater, and Linklater, through what sounds like some filter to maybe give his words some "dreamy," otherwordly sound, talks about time in these films and his work as a whole, all of which may total about 2-minutes of speech spread out over 8-minutes of clips that kinda/sorta relate certain scenes between the different films, with some new-age BS music playing over it.

Ugh.

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The Narrator Returns
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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#103 Post by The Narrator Returns » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:56 pm

I've heard from people who are apparently not out of their minds that ::kogonada's directorial debut (which played at Sundance) is good, but I'm going to have to wait and see on that one.

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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#104 Post by Shrew » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:36 pm

I can see kogonada making a decent film. Analysis and creation are separate skills, and trying to explain something with images rather than over the top narration has to be an improvement, right?

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Ribs
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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#105 Post by Ribs » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:54 pm

As far as I'm aware, kogonada is generally beloved by the few notable critic types who reviewed the movie knowing who he is (if that makes any sense). Personally, I don't really find his stuff to be any more valuable than the flood of cut-rate, most-basic-analysis video essays on Youtube; that said, I think he still has a lot of goodwill for the piece that really put him on the scene, the piece on what separates Indiscretion of an American Wife from Terminal Station, which is very good as the introduction to neorealism it's purported to be and will surely be included on the Criterion upgrade should it ever occur. Other than that, just a general shrug seems appropriate.

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856-859 The Before Trilogy

#106 Post by djproject » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:56 pm

Got it delivered today from Amazon. Watching the supplements first and will watch the films tomorrow night.

1) I actually liked ::kogonada's visual essay and his work in general. I just think it's a flavour that works well for me.

2) I think of these films as "cinematic cousins" to a set of films I want to make myself (http://relate3.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). In fact, the hotel fight scene in Before Midnight felt like a vindication of my own twenty-six page scene in On Night Like This where the main couple also fights.

3) Now I feel these films are really personal to me as the date where it's midnight in Before Midnight is September 6, 2012, my thirtieth birthday.

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Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#107 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon May 01, 2017 10:51 am

DISCUSSION ENDS MONDAY, May 15th

Members have a two week period in which to discuss the film before it's moved to its dedicated thread in The Criterion Collection subforum. Please read the Rules and Procedures.

This thread is not spoiler free. This is a discussion thread; you should expect plot points of the individual films under discussion to be discussed openly. See: spoiler rules.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

I encourage members to submit questions, either those designed to elicit discussion and point out interesting things to keep an eye on, or just something you want answered. This will be extremely helpful in getting discussion started. Starting is always the hardest part, all the more so if it's unguided. Questions can be submitted to me via PM.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#108 Post by swo17 » Mon May 01, 2017 11:12 am

Question: Is this film lessened by Before Midnight's destruction of the ambiguity of the finale?

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#109 Post by Jack Phillips » Mon May 01, 2017 2:42 pm

swo17 wrote:Question: Is this film lessened by Before Midnight's destruction of the ambiguity of the finale?
This wasn't an issue for me as I watched the films in reverse chronological order anyway.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#110 Post by teddyleevin » Tue May 02, 2017 1:31 am

swo17 wrote:Question: Is this film lessened by Before Midnight's destruction of the ambiguity of the finale?
Sunset was my favorite (this seems to be the common choice). I saw them all in the span of a few days after getting the Blu. The realtime flow, brisk/fleeting run-time, and wonderful ending (last 10 minutes really, once they get off the boat) hit me in a way I didn't wholly expect, but innately feared. For me, it's the most relatable feature and the ending brings it home.

Having only seen them all once, but vaguely knowing where they would be starting off when we got to the third film (or that there would be a third film at all), I think I didn't experience the full-body hang-time of that ending. I would have loved to have spent 9 years floating in that moment with them. As it was, knowing they'd where they'd be in 9 years, the ambiguity still worked for me, at least because I related to it so much and it's so effortlessly and gently arrived at.

When I see it for a second time, it may change my tune, now that there is no ambiguity about what goes on. That said, I guess what would have transpired after the credits fell on Sunset and I was dead-right.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#111 Post by swo17 » Tue May 02, 2017 10:34 am

Yeah, even knowing that there is a third film when you sit down to watch this one is bound to have a different effect than what those of us who saw it when it came out experienced. I remember for years after that seemed to be its main selling point--one of the best ambiguous endings in all of cinema--so I'm curious where it stands for people in the wake of that dissolution.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#112 Post by tenia » Tue May 02, 2017 10:54 am

swo17 wrote:Question: Is this film lessened by Before Midnight's destruction of the ambiguity of the finale?
I already watched all 3 movies a few years ago (I watched the first 2 to prepare for the theatrical release of the third one) but my GF never watched them before. When the Criterion set got released, we watched all three of them over the course of a week end.

To me, and it seemed to be reflected by how my GF reacted to them, the most interesting destruction performed by Midnight isn't the ambiguity of the finale (which always felt more like a happy end anyway - the first movie open ending was way more ambiguous, to the point it even got incorporated in Sunset's dialogues !) but the overall happy vibe of the movie which seemingly end a 9 year journey on a happy note just to be followed by the sourest note ever.

You have 2 movies that definitely play with some kind of fantasy happy romantic love, and the third one basically put this down to Earth.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#113 Post by Roger Ryan » Wed May 03, 2017 1:21 pm

Not directly related to Sunset, but I felt the real spoiler came with the trailer and press for Midnight which clearly indicated that Jesse and Celine had become a married couple. Linklater seems to use the opening airport sequence between Jesse and his son as a tease to make you wonder how the two leads will encounter each other again and how long that might take. That Celine and the couple's twin daughters are waiting just outside the terminal is meant to be a surprise.

I don't think either ending of the first two films is compromised by the subsequent sequel since each film picks up nine years after the previous one. If the sequels picked up immediately after the events shown earlier or were remarkably inferior in execution, perhaps my appreciation of the previous work could be diminished, but I find all three films to play beautifully together.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#114 Post by Lars Von Truffaut » Thu May 04, 2017 12:03 pm

swo17 wrote:Question: Is this film lessened by Before Midnight's destruction of the ambiguity of the finale?
Like a few others here, I saw the films in succession around the theatrical run of Before Midnight. I think the closing lines of Roger Ryan's last post sums it up pretty well for me too. Then again, I don't think the finale of Before Sunset is as ambiguous as Before Sunrise, or even Before Midnight for that matter.
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The fact that he says "I know" pretty much spells out for me that Jesse is not only going to miss the plane, but he is going to rekindle the romance in full. Especially seeing how the dialogue and situation from the first film set up the second, I was completely expecting the opening of the third.


One of the things I loved (and was very surprised by upon re-watching the series the other night) was just how well the structure of the movies play against each other. Obviously, you have call backs to previous conversations and the significance of the time of day with the pulse of the couple's current relationship, but the camera set-ups, blocking, and editing are communicating as well. Sunset's long takes and fluid camera work counters the hopscotch of location-centric conversations in Sunrise. Then the first and second-thirds of Midnight calls these back, before morphing into its own beast in the final act -- where we are stuck in the static, cold locale of the hotel and the feelings that brings. Brilliant stuff.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#115 Post by swo17 » Thu May 04, 2017 12:20 pm

Lars Von Truffaut wrote:I don't think the finale of Before Sunset is as ambiguous as Before Sunrise.
Maybe, but in the later film the stakes are certainly higher. The question moves from the purely romantic: do they like each other enough--was there strong enough of a connection on both ends--for them to meet up again after the spark has faded to: is this guy really willing to derail the plans that he, as a responsible adult, has laid out for himself--his flight, his marriage--to pursue something that, while certainly enticing, he has only known for a very short time, relatively speaking? The film ends with him flirting with the idea, but there is a whole world of distance between doing that and actually going through with it.

And I don't see much ambiguity at all in the ending of Midnight. Nothing more than "Will they still be married 20 years from now?" The same ambiguity exists in every movie about a married couple.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#116 Post by Lars Von Truffaut » Thu May 04, 2017 1:12 pm

I see your point. I guess it is a testament to how strong a film it is that the final half hour, particularly Celine & Jesse's interplay on the boat and in the cab, make me completely buy their belief in their initial encounter as a life altering experience that they should have seen through. One that if given a second chance (and with the gift of hindsight no less) they would act on.

Before Midnight ends in a way that makes me question whether or not they may even make it through the night.
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With as strong a connection as they share, my heart wants to see them together, and that night as nothing more than a typical argument between a couple in that period of their lives. That said, with the same verve that they joke and poke fun at each other, the conversation turns to insults and accusations. Celine's biting comments of Jesse's work, lovemaking, honesty and her feelings towards him seem in lockstep with her commentary on the sun. "It's gone." The fact that he resorts to play acting to make her laugh and then she in turn responds by playing a bimbo (the type she has suspicions he slept with) make me at least question whether their return to the hotel room will result in anything more than breakup sex.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#117 Post by swo17 » Thu May 04, 2017 1:28 pm

I feel like sometimes that's just how arguments go in marriage, where in the moment it feels like this could be the end of the whole relationship. Perhaps to some extent you have to put it all on the line like that at times to test whether your spouse is still really invested. Anyway, that's how I read the final act of that film, and I thought it did a rather good job of exploring that oft-neglected aspect of some marriages.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#118 Post by Lars Von Truffaut » Thu May 04, 2017 1:59 pm

Like Jesse and Celine, my partner and I are not married -- only in a long-term relationship. I agree that heated arguments of this sort happen from time to time. I had a similar reading of the film as well, but felt there was enough there for an alternate take.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#119 Post by swo17 » Thu May 04, 2017 2:42 pm

Are they not legally married? I haven't seen Midnight since it came out and don't remember that detail.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#120 Post by Lars Von Truffaut » Thu May 04, 2017 3:00 pm

I don't believe they are. It comes up during the scene in the Byzantine Chapel. Celine says something to that point and the next shot is pretty careful to get her left hand in the frame, which is absent a ring. Later when they get into an argument at the hotel, she refers to his ex as his "wife". (Which annoys him and he quickly corrects.)

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#121 Post by Roger Ryan » Fri May 05, 2017 12:30 pm

It probably says more about my perception of Celine and Jesse's long-term relationship (and outdated societal ideals regarding marriage) that I presumed the couple were, indeed, legally married in Midnight. Then again, I've only seen the film three times; maybe I'll pick up on that little fact my fourth time around!

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#122 Post by Oliver! » Tue May 09, 2017 7:27 am

I wonder if Jesse's novel is any good, or is it actually slightly trashy? How much are we meant to respect his intellect? The speech outlining his next book in the opening scene comes across as extraordinarily gauche.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#123 Post by teddyleevin » Wed May 10, 2017 11:37 am

I got the impression that "gauche bestseller" would be a fair approximation. There's nothing highfalutin about the little book shop and press conference that opens the film, with the Q&A between author and reporters being the only part of the film that doesn't land with me (it feels a little on the nose, maybe even clumsily scripted, and a bit of a letdown, even). Just anxious to see the lovers talk, I suppose.

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Re: Before Sunset (Richard Linklater, 2004)

#124 Post by Oliver! » Thu May 11, 2017 7:04 am

Indeed, and after that it's all very romantic. While showing us two people who have been scarred by romanticism as much as elevated by it.

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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#125 Post by Black Hat » Mon May 15, 2017 1:39 pm

Before Sunset happens to be one of my mother's favorites, one night she popped it on and my grandmother whose English at this stage of her life was mostly forgotten wasn't devoting her full attention to it but had enough of an eye on the screen to be absolutely infuriated at Jessie & Celine 'not getting on with it already'. The hilariousness of her running commentary along with the impatience of old age aside, I have looked at the authenticity of these films in a much different light since.

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