316 Ran

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
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Michael Kerpan
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#101 Post by Michael Kerpan » Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:49 pm

tryavna wrote:t's a good thing that we have so many members on this forum who have actually seen the films in question on the big screen. I'm willing to trust the word of Zedz and Solaris.
Even release prints are not necessarily a reliable guide. The US DVD of Kitano's Zatoichi matches the US theatrical print closely. The problem is that the US theatrical print bears little resemblance color-wise to the the original Japanese theatrical prints (or to those distributed in much of the rest of the world).

One really needs a permanent database of non-degradeable reference frames that document exactly how a film appeared when first released. Absent this, one has got to do a lot of guessing as to proper color balance.

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Tommaso
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#102 Post by Tommaso » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:07 pm

If the Criterion looks closest to the cinematic appearance, fine! But it doesn't explain to me why the Criterion looks so unnatural in those screen caps. I just checked the earlier review at dvdtimes: http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=59810

There are more examples and a lengthy discussion about it by that site's members. Looking at those caps there you'd think the Criterion is just a plain colour-bleeding orange mess, which it is NOT. Even if the orange is indeed there in these scenes because of the sunset and the Criterion might over-pronounce it, it doesn't explain the colour-bleeding on the caps which is NOT there on the Criterion when watching it on my TV. Don't get me wrong, normally I'm really not an avid defender of Criterion, but in this case I for once had the feeling that they actually deserve all the praise they usually get and which I don't always share.

So I wonder: what's the reason? Is this a result of the program that is used to take these captures? Is it the result of an additional program that undoes the regional coding on the Criterion (remember that dvdtimes is an R2-based site)? Is it a problem that only shows on computer screens but not on TV sets? How trustworthy are comparisons if even a simple and , according to the reviewer, unmanipulated screen cap can misrepresent the actual look of a dvd that much? I never experienced anything like this with with Gary's caps at the Beaver, btw.

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colinr0380
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#103 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:17 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:One really needs a permanent database of non-degradeable reference frames that document exactly how a film appeared when first released. Absent this, one has got to do a lot of guessing as to proper color balance.
Like the ring of film swatches that we can see Robert Harris using in the restoration demonstration on the Spartacus disc?

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Michael Kerpan
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#104 Post by Michael Kerpan » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:23 pm

colinr0380 wrote:Like the ring of film swatches that we can see Robert Harris using in the restoration demonstration on the Spartacus disc?
I didn't see this (not a Spartacus fan). Any hint that these swatches were non-degradeable (is there -- in fact -- any way to create a totally non-degradeable color film "snapshot")?

By the way -- are there any online screenshots of the Japanese DVD release of Ran? (I forget).

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BusterK.
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#105 Post by BusterK. » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:40 pm

Anybody knows who does the English narration for Chris Marker's A.K. (1985)? I wish the original French narration (by Marker himself) was also included.

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#106 Post by kinjitsu » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:00 am

Robert Kramer, apparently.

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Le Samouraï
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#108 Post by Le Samouraï » Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:13 pm

2.0 can either be read as stereo or as Dolby Pro Logic surround sound. The four channels in Pro Logic (left, right, center, rear - there is no sub) are matrix encoded in the 2.0 signal.

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Darth Lavender
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#110 Post by Darth Lavender » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:02 pm

I have to say, the color-timing on Ran may be a little weak, but has anyone noticed the absolutely atrocious color-timing on "Seven Samurai"? The worst color I have ever seen. The whole thing is just sort of grey :x And don't even get me started on the sound-quality in that release. I literally could not understand what the actors were saying! It didn't even sound like English!!

And it's Pan & Scan!!! :wink:

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domino harvey
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#111 Post by domino harvey » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:22 pm

Darth Lavender wrote:And it's Pan & Scan!!!
If you ever want nightmares, read the thread on DVDTalk where everyone shares their horror stories dealing with friends/family/loved ones/customers who express a truly astonishing lack of comprehension re: aspect ratios. The guy who found his kid brother watching the cropped full frame Transformers stretched to 16X9-- nausea-inducing, and not just because someone was watching Transformers on purpose.

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Tommaso
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#112 Post by Tommaso » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:46 pm

Darth Lavender wrote:I have to say, the color-timing on Ran may be a little weak, but has anyone noticed the absolutely atrocious color-timing on "Seven Samurai"? The worst color I have ever seen. The whole thing is just sort of grey
Darth, mefears you have that dubious 3-disc-rerelease. That 1998 original disc had some very nice hard contrast in real deep black and real bright white instead of that typical grey. That release finally told the Japs how we guys in the Western would have done it. It also had some very nice bluish tones in between thanks to either digital aliasing or interlacing. Well, well, will Criterion ever learn not to mess with their original products? :roll:

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Svevan
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#113 Post by Svevan » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:54 am

Dear Mods: Does this belong here?

I just recently watched Chris Marker's AK on the second disc of this set, and I thought it was a rather beautiful picture of Kurosawa (and Marker). I liked how it balanced Marker's ruminations on Kurosawa's person (not necessarily his films) with the footage of him directing (which is perhaps not so amazing now that we are inundated with behind the scenes footage). Speaking only of the cinematography, the film is gorgeously filmed, something Marker states he is unwilling to take credit for, and the editing focuses our attention without being unnecessarily linear (I'm thinking of the consecutive shots of the soldiers hands gripping spears, or the clips of morning preparation). I loved every minute of this movie.

Yet I've now read two negative opinions about the film, one from Vincent Canby in the NYT, and the other from Jaime N. Christley at Senses of Cinema. The criticism from Canby is that the film showed more than it spoke about, and was sometimes confused as to what was so great about the footage (Canby lists some "revelations" in the footage that Marker doesn't mention at all, and pretty much claims Marker's trying too hard to get metaphysical with such journalistic footage). Christley just says it's a disappointment.

Obviously it's not the Marker film that set the world on fire, but as biographical and on-set material goes, it is a cut way above. Doesn't this film predate, to a certain degree, the abundance of making-of films we have now? Who was making on-set documentaries of this caliber in or prior to the 80s?

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#114 Post by MichaelB » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:19 am

Svevan wrote:Obviously it's not the Marker film that set the world on fire, but as biographical and on-set material goes, it is a cut way above. Doesn't this film predate, to a certain degree, the abundance of making-of films we have now? Who was making on-set documentaries of this caliber in or prior to the 80s?
Films have long had accompanying "making-of" documentaries - Flicker Alley's La Roue even includes an example from 1922! - but I think it was indeed in the 1980s that they began to be taken seriously and sometimes even given separate cinema releases.

But Les Blank's Burden of Dreams (1982) is generally reckoned to be the benchmark for this sort of thing, though Blank had an advantage over Marker in that the making of Fitzcarraldo was a genuinely gripping drama in its own right - indeed, many critics said that it was rather more exciting than Werner Herzog's film.

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Darth Lavender
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#115 Post by Darth Lavender » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:08 am

Indeed. I recall a short "making of" promo for Fritz Lang's Die Nibelungen.

I would argue, though, that even now making of documentaries aren't all that valued in their own right.

The VERY few exceptions ("Hearts of Darkness," "Burden of Dreams" and "Lost in La Mancha," maybe a few others) are simply fine, cinema-worthy documentaries that happen to have, as their subject, the making of a film.

The majority of making of documentaries exist either to promote the film or, in the case of DVDs, to present a lot of information about the film as concisely and entertainingly as possible. It is, I think, just as rare now as thirty years ago, for someone to create a "making of" intending it to be a work of art in its own right.

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#116 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:40 am

Darth Lavender wrote:I would argue, though, that even now making of documentaries aren't all that valued in their own right.
It is probably more difficult now with DVD increasing awareness of making of documentaries but at the same time causing them to seem less of a rare opportunity for a behind the scenes insight that should be savoured but more an expectation of any film now.

I'm extremely glad for that but there are differences in documentaries going from B roll footage without any commentary on what it is you are seeing (e.g. the two hours of silent footage on The Beast is extremely hard to get through) to the micro-managed EPK documentaries that at their worst can just be a bunch of interviews about how great everyone was. However DVD has caused everyone to raise their game - look at David Prior on Fincher's DVDs or Laurent Bouzerau on the Spielberg discs, or Mark Rance who all create insightful making of documentaries. Criterion are also involved in this too of course, combining bought in documentaries such as A.K. and Luck, Trust and Ketchup and so on with in-house produced interviews that complement the other features.

The other problem though is that for 'casual' audiences making of features are probably not that interesting unless they are about extreme events, like Burden of Dreams or Hearts of Darkness, that play out like mini-films in themselves (I'd also include the drama/tragedy of Lost In La Mancha). As a film fan I could pore over tons of DVD extra features going into the minutae of set production, special effects or rehearsals but realistically I do not expect my sentiments to be shared by too many others (though hopefully enough people to keep making ofs and commentary tracks being produced).

I thought A.K. itself was a wonderful documentary, giving a personal view of the filming which captures tiny moments (like the fussing over hair, the soldiers marching in period costume through the line of modern cars and so on) to capture the feeling of the filming and the sense of being in Kurosawa's presence rather than just a dry cataloguing of events, with lots of breathing space left for us to pick out details that interest us rather than constantly being guided as to what to look at, while at the same time providing enough information to keep us orientated as to what is going on at the time. A portrait of Kurosawa at work rather than of Ran in particular, it provides teasing glimpses of some of the films most spectacular scenes and provides some thematic links to Kurosawa's other films but in a delicate manner, much more interested how much labour goes into the creative process and how the film crew works together like a small army than just of promoting the final film!

I wouldn't suggest that it was a definitive statement on the making of Ran but I don't belive it intended to be, and in not trying to capture all the 'important' events, it allowed itself room to capture the smaller moments, but small moments which contain resonance. In that sense it is a Marker film consistent with his other work rather than just a 'work for hire' project.

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#117 Post by karmajuice » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:30 pm

It's been a while since I've seen AK, but I didn't really consider it a biographical film about Kurosawa so much as an observation of the strata of filmmaking that surround him. Again, it's been a while, but my memory only recalls peripheral glances of Kurosawa (like anyone working on the set might see him) while focusing on the work of those laboring under his direction: the extras, the people spray-painting grass, the running Italian lad, etc. I think people are inclined to expect more Kurosawa, but Marker is more interested in showing passing moments, the things that didn't make it into the film (like the golden grass at night), the people who's names we won't remember. I recall thinking that I could never make a film on that scale, with that many people, while Kurosawa does it almost casually, getting a massage and drinking his beverage while he works.
Hopefully I'm adding to what colinr0380 just said, rather than repeating it, since we seem to agree on the matter.

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#118 Post by Svevan » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:39 am

Thanks all for the replies. I can't believe I forgot about Burden of Dreams, which is a favorite of mine (got to meet Les Blank at the local film festival a year ago; what a curmudgeon). Yet I feel there's a real difference between Dreams and AK. On the one hand I can see a kinship between Blank and Marker, and I'd even call Blank an essayist, though Blank's thoughts are conveyed almost entirely through his editing and structure (the few of his shorts that I've seen are musical and lively, yet somehow deeply inquisitive). Blank seems to straddle the line between direct cinema, a la Maysles or Leacock-Pennebaker, and editorializing, which he really does in Burden of Dreams.

Yet Blank's film seems to somehow be about more than just Herzog: it is concerned with Western culture vs. tribal culture, the jungle as an entity, and the madness (and joy!) of filmmaking.

Marker, for all the claims about his depth, limits what we think about by adding spoken words to his images, telling us how to think about certain images. This particularity is often very open-ended (he'll ask questions of the audience or leave his own questions unanswered). In direct comparison to Dreams, Marker is not asking us in AK to think about Mt. Fuji except in how it affects Kurosawa. Nor is he asking us to consider man's place in nature, or, oddly, the filmmaking struggle, yet some of those elements are there if he wanted to pick them up.

What got me started on all this was Vincent Canby declaring that AK taught us more about Kurosawa the artist by just showing us how he behaved, yet that is pretty much outside of Marker's intention or concern. I haven't seen enough of his work to declare Marker NOT a journalist, but his lack of objectivity is forefronted in every film of his I've seen.

As a side note, I wouldn't put Lost in La Mancha anywhere near these films. It's faux-objective journalistic representation of Gilliam's chaos is interesting as history only.

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#119 Post by colinr0380 » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:31 am

Svevan wrote:Marker, for all the claims about his depth, limits what we think about by adding spoken words to his images, telling us how to think about certain images. This particularity is often very open-ended (he'll ask questions of the audience or leave his own questions unanswered). In direct comparison to Dreams, Marker is not asking us in AK to think about Mt. Fuji except in how it affects Kurosawa. Nor is he asking us to consider man's place in nature, or, oddly, the filmmaking struggle, yet some of those elements are there if he wanted to pick them up.

What got me started on all this was Vincent Canby declaring that AK taught us more about Kurosawa the artist by just showing us how he behaved, yet that is pretty much outside of Marker's intention or concern. I haven't seen enough of his work to declare Marker NOT a journalist, but his lack of objectivity is forefronted in every film of his I've seen.

As a side note, I wouldn't put Lost in La Mancha anywhere near these films. It's faux-objective journalistic representation of Gilliam's chaos is interesting as history only.
I've started to think of it as similar to Sans Soleil as a personal journey that focuses more on the minutae of the experience and individual meaning - a memory collage more than a simple making of documentary (which is why I feel it is closer to Marker's other work than to other making of documentaries).

I'd just bracket Lost In La Mancha with Burden Of Dreams and Heart Of Darkness because they all have a more easily marketable 'hook' to draw in general audiences - see the most insane film shoot of all time on the brink of total collapse!

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#121 Post by manicsounds » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:47 am


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#122 Post by Adam » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:55 pm

colinr0380 wrote:look at David Prior on Fincher's DVDs or Laurent Bouzerau on the Spielberg discs, or Mark Rance who all create insightful making of documentaries. Criterion are also involved in this too of course, combining bought in documentaries such as A.K. and Luck, Trust and Ketchup and so on with in-house produced interviews that complement the other features.
Rance also did the earlier Fincher films, including Se7en. And earlier PT Anderson - Boogie Nights & Magnolia.

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Matt
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Re: 316 Ran

#123 Post by Matt » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:40 pm


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aox
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Re: 316 Ran

#124 Post by aox » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:02 pm

that's great news... but if it is anything like the new blu-ray transfer in Japan then no thanks.

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Re: 316 Ran

#125 Post by swo17 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:06 pm

aox wrote:that's great news... but if it is anything like the new blu-ray transfer in Japan then no thanks.
I'm sure it will be based on the same HD transfer as the SD Criterion release.

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