384 Vengeance Is Mine

Message

Michael Kerpan · #51 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:14 pm

The skin color on Criterion's version of the "Introduce me to your parents" screen shot" is definitely seriously wrong. Way too reddish, just the way they always mis-balance Asian color films. The Ogata walking down the street shot is also quite poor in the Criterion screen shot -- not as overexposed-looking as in the Panorama one -- but distressingly close to this low standard.

I'm just looking at the MOC DVD now. The screen shots more or less resemble the MOC, but "in the wild" (and taken as a whole) the MOC seems to look much better than the screen shots suggest. In shots where there is lots of light, the MOC has plenty of natural looking color. What Criterion seems to have done is make overcast shots (or other shots with dim light) look way too color-filled. DVD Beaver seems to have selected screen shots where the MOC is properly darkish (and thus not as "pretty looking" as Criterion's hyped up version). This is probably because the differences show up most in such shots -- but his is why I suspect the comparison shots give a misleading impression.

CSM126 · #52 Post by **CSM126** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:15 am

DVD Beaver seems to have selected screen shots where the MOC is properly darkish (and thus not as "pretty looking" as Criterion's hyped up version)

Or they just took shots from the Criterion to match their existing review of the MOC/Panorama discs. That tends to be the modus operandi when it comes to adding a new title to a comparison. Loads quicker than taking all new shots from every disc.

Napoleon · #53 Post by **Napoleon** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:22 am

The MOC has a obvious dark green haze when it is in motion. Almost like it was shot with a filter made of algae.
This makes it look very grungy and adds to the downbeat feel of the film.

The big question is; Is this how the film was originally envisaged by Imamura?

To my eyes the criterion looks a technicolour mess, but maybe thats how it was originally intended. Until someone comes up with a reliable reference (video, LD or first hand memory from seeing it at the flicks) the choice between CC and MOC looks to be down to personal preference.

Michael Kerpan · #54 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:32 am

davidhare wrote:Michael - it's impossible to say from the caps but does the MoC look too green? A la the bad Fuji looking transfers of R4 Autumn Afternoon, etc?

On Beave it just looks too dark, but I'm well aware of how easy it is for frames to look quite unrepresentative of the movie in flow.

I think the MOC set looks just fine. I disagree with Napoleon on the green issue. I think this looks just about right overall -- though certain darker shots do show a green tinge. Then again, I far prefer Shochiku's green bias to Criterion's red and/or blue bias.

Imamura was certainly able to work with primary colors when he wanted to -- exhibit A, Profound Desire of the Gods. But there he was shooting in an environment with lots and lots of lovely bright light. The colors that work for the Ryuku Islands in summer are totally inappropriate to mainland scenes taking place in rather dingy weather.

FWIW -- the cover of the Japanese DVD

(I simply could not find a single color screen shot from this DVD -- though I did find some b&w white shots on Japanese web pages).

Michael Kerpan · #55 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:37 am

CSM126 wrote:Or they just took shots from the Criterion to match their existing review of the MOC/Panorama discs. That tends to be the modus operandi when it comes to adding a new title to a comparison. Loads quicker than taking all new shots from every disc.

Quite possible. Whatever the reason for the shot selection, DVD Beaver's comparison shots (perhaps inadvertently) makes the MOC DVD look unwarrantedly bad. Possibly this is just because (by their very nature), such screen shots are out of context. When watching the film, one can know a certain scene takes place in grungy weather (or under dim conditions), and one knows that muted colors are right -- and bright ones are out of place....

Gigi M. · #56 Post by **Gigi M.** » Thu May 03, 2007 8:46 am

Back cover and spine

colinr0380 · #57 Post by **colinr0380** » Thu May 24, 2007 11:52 am

DVD Verdict review

Rich Malloy · #58 Post by **Rich Malloy** » Thu May 24, 2007 1:10 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:The skin color on Criterion's version of the "Introduce me to your parents" screen shot" is definitely seriously wrong. Way too reddish, just the way they always mis-balance Asian color films.

Is there a typical color timing utilized for "Asian color films"? And Criterion "always" misbalances this?

I confess, I'm not sure I find your proposition all that persuasive, as I would suspect that color timing in "Asian" films would be as diverse as in "Occidental" films. But, certainly, I don't have the insight that you and many others may have on the question.

I do recall that Wong Kar Wai prefers a "greenish" look to his films (or perhaps that was the influence of Christopher Doyle), and it seems that this may be something of a fashionable style in Hong Kong cinema even apart from Wong. But I had no idea that this was a broad-ranging "Asian" preference. And this preference would encompass Japan, Hong Kong, and Taiwan at the very least, given that Criterion has released color films from each of these "Asian" countries, and "always" mis-timed?

sevenarts · #59 Post by **sevenarts** » Thu May 24, 2007 1:48 pm

Rich Malloy wrote:Is there a typical color timing utilized for "Asian color films"? And Criterion "always" misbalances this?

Probably not "always," but Criterion has similarly mangled the colors on several color Ozu films, and on Kwaidan, and I'm sure other Asian films in the collection that I haven't seen. Quite apart from the numerous other transfer problems with Criterion's Good Morning, if you just compare the colors to the far superior Tartan edition, you'll easily notice what's wrong. I think it may be as simple as the transfer supervisors expecting the skin tones to match the skin tones usually seen in American films, and of course they shouldn't -- so if you use that as a benchmark in performing the transfer, the result is much brighter and redder than the more green tinge that the original film should've shown.

Michael Kerpan · #60 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Thu May 24, 2007 3:44 pm

I will emend "always" to -- "in all Criterion releases of Asian films I've seen".

One important hint as to poor color balance is, as sevenarts notes above, skin coloration. If skin colors (more or less) match those typically found in Hollywood films featuring caucasian stars, one can generally assume something is wrong. And if Asian prints/DVDs of the same Asian films show a noticeably different color balance, one might also suspect a problem.

Tommaso · #61 Post by **Tommaso** » Fri May 25, 2007 4:13 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:I will emend "always" to -- "in all Criterion releases of Asian films I've seen".

One important hint as to poor color balance is, as sevenarts notes above, skin coloration. .

You're right, but I think it's a general Criterion problem which applies not just to Asian films. Formerly I thought it only was to be found on early Criterion releases like "Autumn sonata" (awful!) or "Peeping Tom" , but it seems that even today they seem to go for reddish skintones more often than not (although my knowledge is limited, almost all my Criterions from the last two years were b/w films). It has just become far less obvious and pronounced, and sometimes even 'pleasant' , but we had this and similar discussions on films as diverse as "Ran" and "The Tales of Hoffmann". I suspect even "Spirit of the Beehive" to lean a little towards the red part of the spectrum, though it looks glorious there.

Highway 61 · #62 Post by **Highway 61** » Fri May 25, 2007 4:42 am

I'm just baffled that Criterion repeatedly makes these kinds of errors. Can someone more knowledgeable that me explain why it's so difficult for DVD producers to accurately represent a film's look? We see this so often on important films like All That Jazz, The Searchers, Rear Window, and the aforementioned Criterions, and it drives me batshit crazy. If a handful of fans can determine that a transfer is botched with just a few screencaps, how can the pros at Criterion and WB get it wrong so often?

Daze73 · #63 Post by **Daze73** » Fri May 25, 2007 5:35 am

Highway 61 wrote:If a handful of fans can determine that a transfer is botched with just a few screencaps, how can the pros at Criterion and WB get it wrong so often?

I don't think the problem is them getting it wrong but them thinking they got it right...

skuhn8 · #64 Post by **skuhn8** » Fri May 25, 2007 5:37 am

Highway 61 wrote:I'm just baffled that Criterion repeatedly makes these kinds of errors. Can someone more knowledgeable that me explain why it's so difficult for DVD producers to accurately represent a film's look? We see this so often on important films like All That Jazz, The Searchers, Rear Window, and the aforementioned Criterions, and it drives me batshit crazy. If a handful of fans can determine that a transfer is botched with just a few screencaps, how can the pros at Criterion and WB get it wrong so often?

Sometimes there's discrepencies between available source prints against which they measure color timing. Sometimes DVD companies get it wrong with the director right there. I can't remember which but I recall there is a CC director approved release that got it wrong.

And then there's just sheer sloppiness, which I fear is the most common cause. All in all I'm far more concerned with sharpness and color than with a little dirt and debris....or a little window boxing.

The Fanciful Norwegian · #65 Post by **The Fanciful Norwegian** » Fri May 25, 2007 6:31 am

Tommaso wrote:I suspect even "Spirit of the Beehive" to lean a little towards the red part of the spectrum, though it looks glorious there.

This is taking the thread a bit off-course, but I saw a theatrical screening of Beehive a couple of months back (from a restored print) and it corresponded very closely to the Criterion. (The Optimum release, judging from the captures at DVD Beaver, is way, way off.) Criterion's certainly done their fair share of botched color "corrections" but I don't think that was one of them.

Michael Kerpan · #66 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Fri May 25, 2007 8:58 am

The Fanciful Norwegian wrote:This is taking the thread a bit off-course, but I saw a theatrical screening of Beehive a couple of months back (from a restored print) and it corresponded very closely to the Criterion. (The Optimum release, judging from the captures at DVD Beaver, is way, way off.) Criterion's certainly done their fair share of botched color "corrections" but I don't think that was one of them.

If you are comparing a Janus print and a Criterion DVD, I suspect these could often be (ultimately) simply two sides of a single coin. To evaluate Asian films, one would need to use an Asian-produced print (totally unconnected to the Janus-Criterion, etc.) as a comparison point.

jorencain · #67 Post by **jorencain** » Fri May 25, 2007 9:29 am

Since this seems to be such a big issue, is anyone asking about it in the "ask Criterion" thread? I imagine that some people would like to hear their response.

lord_clyde · #68 Post by **lord_clyde** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:47 am

Just watched the film and it looks fantastic, as if it were filmed yesterday. The colors seemed spot on to me, I simply can't imagine the film any other way.

jbeall · #69 Post by **jbeall** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:07 am

I just watched the film and had no problems with the colors.

Great film, btw. It took me a little while to get into, but then I was hooked. I looked at the timer maybe once during the entire 2 hours and 20 minutes.

Really impressed by the supporting performances, esp. the actress who played Haru. Without giving too much away, her intensity turned that last lovemaking sequences into one of the most erotic I've seen in a long time.

yojimbo1 · #70 Post by **yojimbo1** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:34 pm

I have not seen the film yet but I was wondering if Imamura had influence over how the film's promotional material looks with respect to saturation, hue etc. Basically what I'm looking at is skin tones. Most Japanese I know do not have the deep tans that I have seen from the promotional material. However from the screens I have seen do compare more or less with the promotional photos.

Am I wrong; like I said I haven't seen the disc yet.

jbeall · #71 Post by **jbeall** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:49 pm

yojimbo1 wrote:I have not seen the film yet but I was wondering if Imamura had influence over how the film's promotional material looks with respect to saturation, hue etc. Basically what I'm looking at is skin tones. Most Japanese I know do not have the deep tans that I have seen from the promotional material. However from the screens I have seen do compare more or less with the promotional photos.

Am I wrong; like I said I haven't seen the disc yet.

I don't think the deep tans betray a problem with the colors, as several of the characters (both Haru and the call-girl, for example) have pale skin, even noticeably pale in contrast to Enokizu when they're in physical contact with each other.

Cronenfly · #72 Post by **Cronenfly** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:21 pm

Not to reopen an old wound (the matter always felt unresolved to me), but is there still no consensus on which transfer is superior (MoC or CC)? In this case it seems to be down to personal preference (given the disparity of opinions across this thread), but I'm still itching to know which one is "right" (assuming one of the two can be assigned that distinction, which I'm not sure is possible). Maybe we could finally get some input from peerpee (as Nick has said that the MoC disc had a lot of work put into it, although I suppose if they were dealing with an inferior print no amount of work could have made their transfer better than the CC, if the CC is indeed the better transfer).

Napier · #73 Post by **Napier** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:17 am

I think the Criterion image is definitely superior.As I own both editions. But as stated before, the MoC has great supplements, specifically the Alex Cox introduction.

Cronenfly · #74 Post by **Cronenfly** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:48 pm

It seems to me too that the Criterion is the better transfer, but it's impossible to say which one is definitive (especially with regards to colours/skin tone bias/brightness) without someone to vouch for which transfer is closer to the way Imamura originally approved it.

I guess the crux of the matter for me is that I only want to own one edition of the movie (even though I love it dearly), and that the MoC has the better extras but the Criterion (debatably) the better transfer.

eljacko · #75 Post by **eljacko** » Mon May 10, 2010 2:08 am

I just finished watching Tokyo Story again; the first time I watched it was before I had ever seen any Imamura, and watching the film this time I was struck by a strange similarity between the father-daughter relationship in every Ozu film and the one in Imamura's film. They are, in a sense, exactly the same (at least in structure), except in Vengeance is Mine the relationship is explicitly sexualized. On the one hand, I don't want to claim that this is a deliberate decision by Imamura, but on the other hand I know he was influenced by Ozu (working under him for awhile) and the similarities between the relationship here and the ones in Ozu's films are too numerous for me to not simply ignore it.

Since Imamura was much more interested in the "messier" side of Japanese society, almost in direct opposition to the overtly formal qualities of Ozu's depictions, I can't help but think that the relationship in this film is an interesting satire of Ozu's family relationships.

Of course, I haven't actually done a whole lot of reading on Vengeance is Mine, or on Imamura's personal history; has this already been pointed out? At the very least, it's something new to talk about considering this entire thread is old, and about transfer quality, with nothing about the film itself.

384 Vengeance Is Mine

Re: 384 Vengeance Is Mine