Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[domino harvey]

And it could be true that for most of these titles 3000 is too large of a run. My understanding is that Shout, Kino, Olive, etc. manage their runs in distribution runs closer to 300 or 500 except for major titles, such as The Thing. (Even Warner Archive titles replicate in such small batches). The other labels also can do subsequent runs if a particular title is a surprise hit. Also, if MisterLime is to be believed, those business models are more about getting certain "packages" of titles wherein they will have some real strong sellers and a myriad of questionable ones.

Hard to believe 3000 copies of Pony Soldier didn't fly right out of their warehouse! Seems like if TT really wanted to improve their returns, they should spend the extra buck per unit to have slipcovers go out on the first thousand copies. It'd cost them a dollar more but they'd get nine more back for each sale made around release date instead of during the regular $10 off sales. Given that their audience is almost exactly the same circle as lovers of slips on a Venn diagram, you'd think this would have occurred to them. Then again, this is the same label that tried to sneak a commentary past Woody Allen, so I'm not sure they have any clue what they're doing other than following an outdated model that is dying with them

[knives]

Can something be outdated if it never worked?

[domino harvey]

Ha, good question!

[Minkin]

I've wondered if the specialty home video bubble will eventually pop. How many more specialty labels selling to an ever-dwindling number of consumers can be sustained? Seems like every other week there's some new label who think they're going to be rolling in money. Even friends who bought quite a lot of blus about five years ago have decided its not worth the time/effort. So I must imagine a lot of these cash-grab labels (Film Detective) probably won't last long.

[matrixschmatrix]

I mean, laserdiscs managed to survive for like a decade at $150 per or whatever with, I believe, a much smaller market- as long as blu-rays remain the best, most high fidelity way to watch things at home, I think they're likely to be worth printing, though the wide market may evaporate.

[Cronenfly]

I feel like most of the TT discs have been fairly well produced, with some pretty admirable effort put into select titles (as matrix notes below), but that does not make up for all the inherent limitations of the business model they chose to move forward with (unreasonable MSRP, especially for barebones titles, not making titles more widely available, etc). They could likely fix some of these issues and continue on if they wanted to, but Redman seems like a cut your nose to spite your face kind of fellow to me, so I doubt it.

[matrixschmatrix]

They did actually start adding some decent features, albeit nearly always using the same fairly limited house crew. They've been slowly improving in a number of ways, but I'm guessing the cost of doing so is part of why they're unsustainable now.

[peerpee]

"Sales are cratering across the board for every label" = patently untrue.

[domino harvey]

You must be mistaken, that would imply there was something flawed about their idiotic business model

[tenia]

Who would have guessed the number of their incredible fanboys isnt enough for the label to be sustainable ?

[FrauBlucher]

Once Kino Lorber and Olive started cannibalizing TT's releases and selling them for half what TT asked and direct to consumers via regular distro channels, TT's sales surely took a nosedive

But those isolated scores!

...and the Redman commentaries! You would think these two supplements would've kept TT viable for many years into the late evening.

[domino harvey]

Once Kino Lorber and Olive started cannibalizing TT's releases and selling them for half what TT asked and direct to consumers via regular distro channels, TT's sales surely took a nosedive

But those isolated scores!

...and the Redman commentaries! You would think these two supplements would've kept TT viable for many years into the late evening.

Excuse you, you mean the film historian Redman commentaries

[Noiradelic]

Sales are cratering across the board for every label

Arrow's expanded and started their U.S arm in the last few years. They wouldn't have done that if sales weren't at least steady. Kino's Studio Classics line only started two-and-a-half years ago and its ascent seems to be directly tied to TT's decline. Based on Kino's release schedule and the expansion of studios/catalogs they license from, presumably their sales were at least solid a year ago.

third party licensees involved in a frenzy for the studios

his explanation is a garbled mess... There's so much enthusiasm for content to release that it's driving up licensing fees!

Yeah, if boutique labels are in a financial position to engage in a licensing fee war, then sales must not be bad at all.

We are entering the final phase of the physical media business with labels toying with more and more limited runs targeting those collectors that are left gamely trying to keep up

There's probably some truth in what he's saying

Agreed. In the long term, the prospects for physical media may not be rosy. As a label owner who used to work at a studio, he may have some insider perspective on its future.

[domino harvey]

If Mister Lime can be believed, Kino Lorber is doing so well that they can afford to outbid literally every other boutique label, including Criterion

[FrauBlucher]

Yeah, if boutique labels are in a financial position to engage in a licensing fee war, then sales must not be bad at all.

Agreed. In the long term, the prospects for physical media may not be rosy. As a label owner who used to work at a studio, he may have some insider perspective on its future.

These are two opposing thoughts.

[Costa]

If Mister Lime can be believed, Kino Lorber is doing so well that they can afford to outbid literally every other boutique label, including Criterion

If they improved their encoding a bit, it would be great too.
Kino's is always the inferior one, comparing to European labels.

[Noiradelic]

Yeah, if boutique labels are in a financial position to engage in a licensing fee war, then sales must not be bad at all.

Agreed. Long term, the prospects for physical media may not be rosy. As a label owner who used to work at a studio, he may have some insider perspective on its future.

These are two opposing thoughts.

No, the first quote applies to the present. I said "long term" in the second, meaning in five years or more. Redman's the one trafficking in opposing thoughts.

[tenia]

What's ridiculous in all this of course is that TT's commentary tries to explain their own personal decline through general points about the market... despite having a noticeably unique business model. "Oh, it's the economy !" Or maybe just your business model should have evolved with the market ?

There is a real question though, like Minkin pointed out, about how many independant labels can coexist in a market which isn't growing sales-wise (how much can you spread the butter) but that's really not what TT is talking about here. They're only talking about them as if they were representative of the whole market (which they clearly don't seem to be).

I also love how some people on blu-ray.com's topic say "oh they knew it when they called themselves Twilight Time". Yeah, they just had the timing wrong by roughly 50% and seem to be the first one to decline significantly enough to say it publicly but otherwise yeah, how precise their predictions were.
It's similar to all these articles that have been written for the past 10 years saying “it’s the end for the DVD !” “it’s the end for the physical market !”. And yet, it seems it still have at least 5 years in front of it...

[jedgeco]

Once Kino Lorber and Olive started cannibalizing TT's releases and selling them for half what TT asked and direct to consumers via regular distro channels, TT's sales surely took a nosedive

But those isolated scores!

...and the Redman commentaries! You would think these two supplements would've kept TT viable for many years into the late evening.

With the recent releases of the Arrow Woody Allens and Alfredo Garcia, I've now been burned on every TT title I've purchased. And since the Indicator slates have every title that I've ever thought about buying from TT, I would have been burned on all of them too. That's a long way, I guess, of saying that I'm done with TT.

[Drucker]

Twilight Time, to me, really is the perfect storm of a bad company. I am happy to pay a premium on a film I want to support an independent label (Criterion). I'm happy to take a chance on a film I'm not familiar with (lots of recent Arrow Academy boxes and old MOC releases). I'm even happier, at this point, to do it with more obscure catalog titles that I hadn't heard of that look interesting (Kino, Signal One). I don't mind lack of booklet/extra features (Kino). I sometimes even prefer to not support Amazon and buy from a label directly (Arrow/Criterion). And I'm getting away from the habit of double-dipping because a slightly better edition came along (Criterion 4k MGM titles).

But I'm not thrilled to do all of these things at the same time. Nearly everything I want from TT I can get a better deal and quality edition elsewhere. Unlike many of the posters on this and other forums, I am still a relatively new in my "being into film" and at any point there are dozens of titles I could blind buy. What am I, as a consumer, to do with that extra $30 I have leftover after a given pay period, and why on earth would I spend that on a Twilight Time release and not any other label I just mentioned where I can either get 1) a better edition of the same film or 2) more than 1 film for that price point?

[tenia]

What bothers me more though is that, from a pure “US locked” consumer point of view, if TT releases a movie, you’re stuck with that too often. You’re stuck with a crappy limited way to buy it, with an inadequately high price point and too often with a release that isn’t future-proof enough for the price it’s asking.

But TT’s existence is solely due to how the video market is setup. We’re stuck with these because the consumer can’t choose. There’s no competition, nothing. If a label buys the rights and want to put a $50 barebones release with an obsolete master, there’s nothing consumers can do except getting equipped to see what is doing elsewhere which might be better and cheaper.

Very recent example : in France, Wild Side just released on BD Rumble Fish. We were all expecting to get the new 4K restoration but it turned out it’s the old Universal master. But on top of all the existing issues it has, Wild Side additionally pushed the contrast boost, so it’s now even worse. If you’re a regular French consumer, there’s nothing you can do about it. You’re stuck with that. Wild Side could have DNRed to death on top of it, there’s nothing you could do about it.
I’m not stuck with it because I’m region free and English-speaking so I can go to Criterion if I want. But otherwise, there’s no competition and that always bothered me.
Sidonis released Lang’s Man Hunt on BD through a visibly obsolete greenish HD master while a new award-nominated 4K restoration was being prepped up. In France, we’ll never get it and we’re, again, stuck with this state of things.

If there was any competition available on a given market at a consumer level, many many labels would have had to adapt their ways of working, business models and price points a very long time ago. Because there isn’t, some just do what they want. Take it or leave it. That’s what TT has been doing and it allowed them to do so for many years and they’re only now starting to decline. But still, as they said, their longevity certainly isn’t bad despite all the non-consumer oriented factors contained in their business model.

[FrauBlucher]

But still, as they said, their longevity certainly isn’t bad despite all the non-consumer oriented factors contained in their business model.

This is certainly because of luck and not any shrewd business decision. I would bet a paycheck that Redman would've thought he'd be flipping off the light switch as he leaves the room, instead he is the first one out the door.

[tenia]

I don't think it's luck. I think it's the absolute anti-competitive state of the market at the consumer level that allowed even such a relatively poor business model to survive for so long.

[domino harvey]

You can add Twilight Time to the list of labels getting preferential treatment from Blu-ray.com-- I saw some surprisingly critical posts earlier today and was like, "Wow, even the sycophants are calling them out" and then poof, they're gone. Maybe that forum seems like such a soulless, kissass place just because those are the only posts that ever remain undeleted?

[Reverend Drewcifer]

May I ask from where the Redman hate derives? I think I missed the turn where we decided he's awful. I love a good pile-on like the next guy, but Redman seems to have offended by having a daytime gig I would kill for. Not asking for bullet points, but he's a villain because why?