The BBFC vs. UK Independent Labels

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finally
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#51 Post by finally » Wed May 28, 2008 11:49 pm

MichaelB wrote:
finally wrote:MichaelB, if what the BBFC have to say was true then DVD companies will currently be in defiance of law for audio commentaries previously released and still on sale.
No they won't, because the law (specifically the 1984 Video Recordings Act) only requires them to obtain a classification from the BBFC - which they've done.

In fact, I specifically asked the BBFC two years ago if I needed to submit audio commentary tracks with my then-current project, and they said no.

So as far as I'm concerned, I absolutely complied with all the relevant requirements (both the strict legal ones and the ones in connection with the BBFC's guidelines) - and retrospective changes aren't my concern unless a change is made to the relevant legislation.
I should have said "previously released without a certificate and remain on sale without one".

The BBFC may have told you two years ago that you did not need to submit audio commentary tracks but they are now saying they were incorrect and you do unless they are "audio descriptive tracks which involve very simple and short descriptions of the action on screen (eg for the visually impaired)" not unless they have already been released. You did not submit those audio commentaries therefore no decision was made on them by the BBFC for their "suitability for classification" (VRA). The advice they gave you did not constitute a classification decision under the Video Recordings Act.

I agree that you may have complied with the legal requirements but the BBFC are now saying you didn't, albeit that it is their fault that you didn't.

finally
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#52 Post by finally » Thu May 29, 2008 12:23 am

From the Video Recordings Act (1984)

2. Exempted works.

— (1) Subject to subsection (2) [F5 or (3)] below, a video work is for the purposes of this Act an exempted work if, taken as a whole—
(a) it is designed to inform, educate or instruct;
(b) it is concerned with sport, religion or music; or
(c) it is a video game.

(2) A video work is not an exempted work for those purposes if, to any significant extent, it depicts—
(a) human sexual activity or acts of force or restraint associated with such activity;
(b) mutilation or torture of, or other acts of gross violence towards, humans or animals;
(c) human genital organs or human urinary or excretory functions;


These are not loopholes, they are officially sanctioned exemptions. An audio commentary performed in character is not informative and would surely require classification but a video with commentary of an informative kind surely fits under the banner of exemption (2) (a).

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MichaelB
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#53 Post by MichaelB » Thu May 29, 2008 1:57 am

finally wrote:I agree that you may have complied with the legal requirements but the BBFC are now saying you didn't, albeit that it is their fault that you didn't.
Indeed. Which is why I propose to do absolutely nothing about it.

finally
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Import Duty

#54 Post by finally » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:57 pm

Sorry Felix,

it is the import duty threshold that is being raised but the VAT threshold isn't being raised with it which means that the VAT will still be charged an no doubt handling charges will remain the same.

The article I had found was misleading. The savings will be very little on DVD packages of a value between £18 and £120 (150 Euros).

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Felix
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Re: Import Duty

#55 Post by Felix » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:20 pm

finally wrote:Sorry Felix,

it is the import duty threshold that is being raised but the VAT threshold isn't being raised with it which means that the VAT will still be charged an no doubt handling charges will remain the same.

The article I had found was misleading. The savings will be very little on DVD packages of a value between £18 and £120 (150 Euros).
Damn and blast it but thanks for the clarification. I didn't think it was in character for our Great Leader to reduce the tax on anything.

peerpee
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Cover Art and BBFC Labels

#56 Post by peerpee » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:57 am

TheGodfather wrote:Only really small minor is the rating logo on the cover. Too bad it needs to be on the cover. Other than that, no complaints what so ever.
Please direct all complaints about the BBFC logos to the BBFC. I'm afraid it's the (unfair) law of the land.

Glad you're liking the book though!

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MichaelB
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Re: 80 Une femme mariée

#57 Post by MichaelB » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:06 am

peerpee wrote:Please direct all complaints about the BBFC logos to the BBFC. I'm afraid it's the (unfair) law of the land.
It's a complete waste of time complaining to the BBFC, as they'll merely point you in the direction of the House of Commons, which passed the Video Recordings (Labelling) Act of 1985. The BBFC actually has nothing to do with this besides supplying the classification that the VR(L)A requires to be displayed on the front of all video recordings.

peerpee
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Re: 80 Une femme mariée

#58 Post by peerpee » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:20 am

Michael, I just want to direct people there so that the BBFC really understand that they're not liked.

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MichaelB
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Re: 80 Une femme mariée

#59 Post by MichaelB » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:31 am

peerpee wrote:Michael, I just want to direct people there so that the BBFC really understand that they're not liked.
But what's the point of complaining about things they can't do anything about? Not least because I imagine they have a standard reply for stuff like this.

And I think the BBFC might already be aware that it's not the most popular organisation in the country, so I'm not sure what would be achieved by that either.

If you want the law changed, lobby your MP - I'm all for the overturning of the Video Recordings Act and its spin-offs, but I'm not under any illusions that the BBFC would be any help in achieving this.

peerpee
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Re: 80 Une femme mariée

#60 Post by peerpee » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:08 pm

MichaelB wrote:If you want the law changed, lobby your MP - I'm all for the overturning of the Video Recordings Act and its spin-offs, but I'm not under any illusions that the BBFC would be any help in achieving this.
A lot of the folk complaining are outside of the UK, (TheGodfather is in the Netherlands) and thus don't have a local MP in the UK to complain to. Furthermore, if I thought my local Tory MP would do anything about this, other than fart and roll over, I would be on his doorstep in the morning. But thanks for reaffirming that the BBFC are useless! :)

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MichaelB
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Re: 80 Une femme mariée

#61 Post by MichaelB » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:40 pm

peerpee wrote:A lot of the folk complaining are outside of the UK, (TheGodfather is in the Netherlands) and thus don't have a local MP in the UK to complain to.
So why don't you produce alternative artwork based on the original designs, minus the BBFC logo, and make it downloadable? Presumably this wouldn't infringe the VR(L)A if the DVDs themselves are released in accordance with its requirements? (You could conceivably set up the downloads so that UK IP addresses are barred if you were that worried about the legal issues)
But thanks for reaffirming that the BBFC are useless! :)
By the same token, every single British organisation that doesn't have direct links to the creation and amendment of British legislation is equally useless. Very much including MoC!

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Re: 80 Une femme mariée

#62 Post by peerpee » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:52 pm

MichaelB wrote:So why don't you produce alternative artwork based on the original designs, minus the BBFC logo, and make it downloadable?
Wouldn't want to encourage the waste of inkjet cartridge ink on the printing of homemade-looking MoC sleeves! -- We have to draw the line somewhere. Until last month there was just myself fulltime, and I do all the sleeves myself. We just don't have the time to do everything we'd like to do. We'd rather do 80-page books for UNE FEMME MARIEE than faff around producing alternative artwork for download.
By the same token, every single British organisation that doesn't have direct links to the creation and amendment of British legislation is equally useless. Very much including MoC!
If we went 100% mail order, I believe we might be able to get away without certification. I'd rather find ways around the legislation than spend years trying to do something about it through official channels. Having said that, there's no way the MoC Series will be 100% mail order in the foreseeable future.

Disclaimer: All views expressed in this forum by "peerpee" are my own personal opinion, and do not necessarily represent the views of Eureka Entertainment Ltd or The Masters of Cinema Series (which is now solely owned by Eureka Entertainment Ltd.).

Anyway... back to UNE FEMME MARIEE!

peerpee
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Re: 80 Une femme mariée

#63 Post by peerpee » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:15 pm

david hare wrote:I've been mutely reading these last dialogues between the two of you - without seeing them are the new BBFC logos now on a par with the despicable Australian nanny state shape-ettes which take up an eighth of the cover?
The BBFC logos aren't new, the current incarnation has been around since 2002. It's just shit that they even exist, and it's prohibitively expensive to go through the whole process.

Eureka just want to toe the line like everybody else and follow the law.

What we need is a few companies to grow some balls and say no to it all.
Nobody wanted these. Even the distributors didn't want these, the public thinks they're shit. But the Nanny State triumphs.

NIck what would happen if you retitled the film back to Godard's original (banned) title La Femme Mariee? Would you have to resubmit and get it reclassified?
Oh god knows.

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skuhn8
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Re: 80 Une femme mariée

#64 Post by skuhn8 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:53 am

Perhaps include a sticker within the booklet in line with the cover art theme that is the same size as the offending warning label, even a keyhole view of one of the film's naughtier scenes :wink:

David M.
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#65 Post by David M. » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:20 pm

A good solution would be for Blu-ray Disc commentaries. Store the commentary on a web server and include it as a downloadable feature. Have the disc authored to permit playing audio tracks from local storage. The commentary is not on the disc.

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skuhn8
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#66 Post by skuhn8 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:24 am

David Mackenzie wrote:A good solution would be for Blu-ray Disc commentaries. Store the commentary on a web server and include it as a downloadable feature. Have the disc authored to permit playing audio tracks from local storage. The commentary is not on the disc.
A good solution to what? :-k

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Tommaso
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Re: 80 Une femme mariée

#67 Post by Tommaso » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:50 am

david hare wrote:without seeing them are the new BBFC logos now on a par with the despicable Australian nanny state shape-ettes which take up an eighth of the cover?
Exactly this seems to happen with new discs in Germany, too, at the moment, if the cover designs on amazon.de or jpc of any disc released since April 2009 are any indication. Awful, awful, awful. As if there wasn't already enough reason to go for US or UK discs compared to their German counterparts in many cases.

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ellipsis7
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#68 Post by ellipsis7 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:03 am

Yeah, I noticed a prominent label bottom LHS of Warner Germany's upcoming ZABRISKIE POINT - that explains it... (but not why there will 2 different German releases of ZP out at the same time)...

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Tommaso
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#69 Post by Tommaso » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:30 am

Thanks, ellipsis, I wasn't even aware that WB are releasing "Zabriskie" in Germany, too. Now I have to find out whether it's anamorphic or not...
I assume that the older "Zabriskie" disc will go out of print soon; it was a terrible 4:3 pan and scan affair.

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MichaelB
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#70 Post by MichaelB » Fri May 01, 2009 6:09 am

skuhn8 wrote:
David Mackenzie wrote:A good solution would be for Blu-ray Disc commentaries. Store the commentary on a web server and include it as a downloadable feature. Have the disc authored to permit playing audio tracks from local storage. The commentary is not on the disc.
A good solution to what?
A good solution to the fact that you now have to pay the BBFC to vet commentaries. Originally, they were considered audio supplements, and therefore not technically within their remit (the BBFC also doesn't vet stills or onscreen text), but they recently decided that the film plus commentary is a new "video work". Fortunately, this isn't being applied retrospectively.

This, incidentally, is why you were spared a commentary on Valerie and her Week of Wonders by myself and my regular writing partner - Second Run was keen, but just couldn't afford either the recording or classification costs. So the material I dug up during research ended up as a short video intro, which was much cheaper both to shoot (as it didn't require studio facilities with Digibeta playback) and to classify (as it was much shorter).
peerpee wrote:What we need is a few companies to grow some balls and say no to it all.
The problem there, as you've presumably recognised in your own situation, is that you'd need these "few companies" to represent physical distributors and retailers as well as the DVD labels (and their parent companies) - since they'd presumably also be sued for being part of the Video Recordings Act-infringing supply chain. For an equivalent, the likes of WHSmiths could be sued along with the publishers of libellous material, which was why that chain wouldn't stock Private Eye for decades and why the New Statesman was left with a hefty bill over the John Major libel affair even before the matter was aired in court, because the mag's distributors caved in immediately and passed the costs on.

That said, I can think of quite a few films that have sneaked onto the UK market without a BBFC certificate despite technically requiring one - I have a VHS of Alexander Nevsky with the restored score, and presumably the classical label that released it considered it broadly equivalent to one of their operas, which as music works aren't subject to classification. Yet the film is visually identical to any other release of Nevsky, which most certainly is subject to classification under the VRA. I'm assuming ignorance rather than deliberate deception on the part of the label, but they seem to have got away with it for at least fifteen years.

My own solution, though, would be to modify the VRA to allow smaller labels to bypass the BBFC vetting process altogether. This will inevitably mean that some of the larger retailers won't touch their product, but that's hardly going to have a major impact on niche-market items - and it's broadly similar to the system that's currently operating in the US, whereby opting out of MPAA vetting means restrictions on distribution and advertising. Illegal material is already covered by the criminal law, and the label can always opt in to BBFC vetting if there are concerns in that department (and the BBFC can be genuinely helpful in this area).

(Abolishing the VRA outright, however desirable, isn't feasible - for various reasons, the majors are rather keen on it, not least because it favours them over independents).

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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#71 Post by McCrutchy » Fri May 15, 2009 6:31 pm

I think it's adorable that this thread has matured in my long absence.

Here is a likely example...US distributors The Criterion Collection just released a new DVD and Blu-ray of In the Realm of the Senses, a film that is technically uncut iat '18' in the UK BUT has optical re-framing in one scene where a woman yanks a boy's penis as a means of punishment. Though in this case I'd guess MoC or, more likely, the BFI, would be satisfied as-is when releasing a new UK DVD/Blu-ray. At this point, however, I'm more interested in the likelihood that the BBFC would overturn this finding and re-classify it uncut at '18' in 2009...given that the last classification was done in 2000.

Further, I'm wondering if anyone else is noticing a slightly disturbing broadening of the '15' certificate whereby it now includes everything from violent and thematic US PG-13 films (Doubt, Max Payne, Cloverfield) to unrated comedies that were cut for US R-rated versions (Role Models, Superbad, American Pie (1-3)). Not that I'm complaining, but I think that due to the lack of readiness to reclassify every title (especially in the late 80s and early 90s when several '12' cinema films were upgraded to '15' for video) that is still floating around the local video shop, that the "15" cert is becoming a little too big for its britches...

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MichaelB
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#72 Post by MichaelB » Sat May 16, 2009 2:43 am

muddycrutchboy wrote:US distributors The Criterion Collection just released a new DVD and Blu-ray of In the Realm of the Senses, a film that is technically uncut iat '18' in the UK BUT has optical re-framing in one scene where a woman yanks a boy's penis as a means of punishment. Though in this case I'd guess MoC or, more likely, the BFI, would be satisfied as-is when releasing a new UK DVD/Blu-ray. At this point, however, I'm more interested in the likelihood that the BBFC would overturn this finding and re-classify it uncut at '18' in 2009...given that the last classification was done in 2000.
They can't, for reasons discussed in the Criterion thread about the film. Or at least they can't without the 1978 Protection of Children Act being overturned, which is about as likely as a cat having a thousand-year stint in hell and emerging entirely unscathed by the experience.

The problem is that under UK law the scene in question constitutes a recording (i.e. not merely a depiction) of a child being sexually abused. And in this respect it's an open and shut case - there's no defence whatsoever that I can see, as the PCA doesn't have the "artistic merit" loophole that has made the 1959 Obscene Publications Act such a useful bulwark against censorship.

So it's not because the BBFC doesn't want to pass the film uncut (they're fully aware of its reputation and merits, which is why James Ferman broke the mould by passing it largely intact at 18 in the first place, despite it going way beyond then-current guidelines for the classification), it's because they can't - under the 1984 Video Recordings Act they're legally required to make sure that all releases they pass abide by the criminal law, and because of the Protection of Children Act that's simply not the case with this film.
Further, I'm wondering if anyone else is noticing a slightly disturbing broadening of the '15' certificate whereby it now includes everything from violent and thematic US PG-13 films (Doubt, Max Payne, Cloverfield) to unrated comedies that were cut for US R-rated versions (Role Models, Superbad, American Pie (1-3)). Not that I'm complaining, but I think that due to the lack of readiness to reclassify every title (especially in the late 80s and early 90s when several '12' cinema films were upgraded to '15' for video) that is still floating around the local video shop, that the "15" cert is becoming a little too big for its britches...
Well, I've been rather surprised by some things that have been recently classified '12' - not least the disturbing, sexually explicit La Gueule Ouverte (!) Not that any twelve-year-olds would get much beyond the long-take opening before switching off, so it's not an especially big deal.

akaten

Re: The BBFC and MoC

#73 Post by akaten » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:21 pm

At several points in this interesting discussion its been mentioned that if major studios were to become involved they could reform or even replace the existing BBFC system. If the videogame industry is anything to go by that is certainly possible, the various articles about the announcement today of the BBFC being largely sidelined in the new ratings system can be found on the http://www.gamesindustry.biz website.

The BBFC doesn't seem too pleased, but it did seem inevitable when they lack the resources to check the vast amount of content without industry help in pointing out relevant sections to rate.

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MichaelB
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Re: The BBFC and MoC

#74 Post by MichaelB » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:44 pm

You'd need to change the law (specifically the 1984 Video Recordings Act) to remove the BBFC's statutory responsibility for vetting video releases.

And while the scenario you outline might theoretically work with regard to theatrical releases, getting rid of the BBFC would simply allow local authorities to do their individual worst, regardless of consistency or indeed sanity.

Which of course is why the industry created the BBFC in the first place.

akaten

Re: The BBFC and MoC

#75 Post by akaten » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:00 pm

I certainly wasn't suggesting an absent of any rating system, rather its give and take, and something that is needed both due to the failings of BBFC, viewer habits and the rise of new technology and online means of watching films that make it more difficult to implement.

The articles suggest the industry will adopt greater role in determining the nature of content rating in exchange for greater powers for the Video Standards Council than the BBFC could ever have hoped to use in the existing system (revoking a publisher license) to ensure compliance and prevent the illegal selling of games to minors.

This is what the film industry could do with, a means to rate that is more in line with how films are produced and crucially marketed (the benefits of which are addressed in an interview with Microsoft's Neil Thompson at the site above) and with safety measures to protect all from abuses that could harm the industry.

One benefit would be to do away with the BBFC idea of rating according to "broad public opinion," when broad public often has no interest in the films in question, in the same way documentaries are often not rated in the same way as cinema, with a more nuanced system taking into account the nature of the content and its likely audience.

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