Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

Milestone, Flicker Alley, Oscilloscope, Cinema Guild...they're all here.
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davonick
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:07 pm

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#76 Post by davonick » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:23 pm

Some of these shots seem to purposely choose bad scenes from the films...screenshotting archival footage, really? Most shots looked great to me. I'm pulling the trigger. Best ones below.

http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/07-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/13-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/15-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/20-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/28-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/37-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/38-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/49-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/54-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/72-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/85-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/87-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/93-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How do these help anyone?
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/35-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/92-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/97-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... /107-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... /110-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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zedz
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#77 Post by zedz » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:30 pm

WorstFella wrote:
mteller wrote:If you replace the number in the URL, you can also see shots from all the other films in the set too. Numbers go from 01 to 110.
Just looked through all these caps. The compression by-and-large looks awful, and in a very inconsistent way. The only Shout! encode I don't have significant problems with is Aguirre. What a disaster, especially for the Shout! exclusives.
Sh!t! Factory?

WorstFella
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:14 pm

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#78 Post by WorstFella » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:20 pm

davonick wrote:Some of these shots seem to purposely choose bad scenes from the films...screenshotting archival footage, really? Most shots looked great to me. I'm pulling the trigger. Best ones below.

http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/07-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/13-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/15-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/20-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/28-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/37-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/38-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/49-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/54-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/72-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/85-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/87-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/93-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How do these help anyone?
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/35-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/92-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... t/97-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... /107-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rockshockpop.com/screencaps/ ... /110-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Those shots are fine, but there are compression issues visible even in several of those, and it gets far worse in other screens.

When a film uses multiple formats, including archival footage, it's of use and interest to look at how that alternative footage is represented. It's not as useful as the 35mm screens, obviously, but given that these archival screens are isolated and always outnumbered by other screens for a given film, I don't see a problem at all.

To suggest that the screenshots were deliberately and dishonestly used make the films look worse is just silly.

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warren oates
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#79 Post by warren oates » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:24 pm

I'm no expert. But I just got my copy of the Shout set and have been going through it. So far the handful of titles I've looked at closely all look pretty good to my eye. Aguirre, Stroszek, Lessons of Darkness, Fata Morgana all feel like huge improvements over the standard def copies I'd had before. Most of them even look better than any film print of the titles I've seen. So far I've seen nothing like the Madame de-like travesty of mismanaged grain or compression that those who've piled on those early screen caps suggest. I wouldn't at all be surprised if David M. and the BFI can best this, but for me there would have to be a big difference in image quality across most of the titles to make me double dip. Herzog's films have always been beautiful without needing to be fussily pristine. I'm all for proper mastering, but I feel like some of the most vocal early outrage about those caps has come from folks who may not have ever seen these films in theaters or in standard def. There's often a lot of grain and other "flaws" inherent in Herzog's images that no amount of post processing will (or should) remove. The specific complaints I've read about Lessons of Darkness bear this out. I think the Shout presentation of it looks great. But we should all remember that the director is Werner Herzog and not Ron Fricke.

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solaris72
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:03 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#80 Post by solaris72 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:16 pm

warren oates wrote:Herzog's films have always been beautiful without needing to be fussily pristine. I'm all for proper mastering, but I feel like some of the most vocal early outrage about those caps has come from folks who may not have ever seen these films in theaters or in standard def. There's often a lot of grain and other "flaws" inherent in Herzog's images that no amount of post processing will (or should) remove.
Having recently seen The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser and Heart of Glass in 35mm I definitely agree with this point.

HitchcockLang
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 1:43 pm

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#81 Post by HitchcockLang » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:21 pm

Well, I've been interested in this set for a while now based on things I've read, but I've never seen a Herzog film ever. When I found out belatedly last night that it was limited to only 5,000 copies, I pre-ordered from Amazon. My wife may kill me. Someone needs to either reassure me that this is worth a $150 blind buy to someone completely unfamiliar with Herzog or to talk me out of it so I can cancel my preorder before it's too late!

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warren oates
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#82 Post by warren oates » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:31 pm

You've never seen a single one of these films? Well, then, just do the math. A night out to the sort of art cinema that would show these films would probably cost you more than the roughly $10 a film price of this set. I don't know many cinephiles for whom there aren't about half dozen of these titles (though we might disagree on which ones) they want to revisit many times over. So it turns out you're really saving the fam's money with your carefully pre-planned (and preordered) appreciation.
Last edited by warren oates on Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#83 Post by domino harvey » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:34 pm

You'd prob be able to make most your money back if not a profit reselling it if you don't like it also

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warren oates
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#84 Post by warren oates » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:35 pm

Unless Shout magically discovers this edition is just as "limited" as Nightbreed.

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FrauBlucher
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:28 pm
Location: Greenwich Village

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#85 Post by FrauBlucher » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:42 pm


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EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#86 Post by EddieLarkin » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:49 pm

It's too bad about Fitzcarraldo. Hopefully the BFI are using a different source à la Nosferatu.

Almost matching frames from the Aguirre discs: BFI, Shout!

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warren oates
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#87 Post by warren oates » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:37 am

I have no doubt that there are some issues with both the original film elements and their video handling on certain titles in this Shout set, especially Nosferatu. But I'm having a problem understanding how it is that reviews like the ones on Blu-ray are distinguishing between flaws inherent in the images and problems like video compression artifacts. Especially when it comes to shorter titles like Lessons of Darkness and Fata Morgana, both of which seem to have plenty of space on their respective BDs as well as high bitrates. They're also both documentaries made kind of on the fly with lots of variation in image quality baked into the original camera negatives. I've watched both of these films back to back more than once comparing their Anchor Bay standard def forebearers and the new Shout Blu-rays. And the problematic parts look largely similar and almost exclusively worse on the regular DVDs. If it were just all about mastering and compression codecs, why would the images appear flawed in exactly the same way in two entirely different transfers/encodings? Is this really something a compression savant like David M. could conquer?

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tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#88 Post by tenia » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:07 am

(this is, of course, just my 2 cents from my own experience so this is purely IMO).

Usually, when you're not sure about compression issues, going through the making of the caps allows the reviewer to ensure whether it is a compression issue or element related.

However, it is possible to have a high bitrate and compression issues (the foggy shower sequences of Dressed to Kill have this issue on Carlotta's French release).
Also, I believe it is highly unlikely to have such artifacts baked on the restoration for all this film-shot movies. In the worst case, you could have "scanner noise", but this is nothing close to compression artifacts and is a whole different issue.

For your Anchor DVD VS Shout ! BD comparison, it is also quite unlikely the problem is "the same". It may look the same but it's just the case of comparing 2 discs both badly encoded. I'm quite sure that if you compare frame by frame both discs, the compression issues would not appear to be at the exact same spot (like 2 masters both dirty, but with the speckles not being at the same spot).

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AMalickLensFlare
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:22 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Re: Shout! Factory: Herzog: Collection

#89 Post by AMalickLensFlare » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:53 am

I guess the complaints of bent corners from shipping have Amazon thinking long and hard about how to ship it properly. I ordered it a week ago and it's been "under review" since the day after.

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