Flicker Alley

Vinegar Syndrome, Deaf Crocodile, Imprint, Cinema Guild, and more.
Post Reply
Message
Author
BrightEyes23
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:46 am

#26 Post by BrightEyes23 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:05 pm

just a quick thought, but if those of us in the U.S. were to view this upon its initial release way back when...we wouldn't have the choice between the original french intertitles or english ones...

also, another thought/question, but how much say did the filmmakers actually have in putting together the intertitles? I thought I read in a hitchcock book that he actually got his start in film making up intertitles for an advertising company, which leads to the question, did the filmmakers make them, or did the production company hand it off to a 3rd party/seperate department to do these?

User avatar
FilmFanSea
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:37 pm
Location: Portland, OR

#27 Post by FilmFanSea » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:35 pm

I'm happy to reward Flicker Alley's unremunerative labor of love with my hard-earned money. If Eureka MoC significantly ups the ante, I'll probably splurge for theirs as well. I'm with Schreck on this one: this is a company teetering on insolvency and trying hard to do the right thing by releasing silent masterpieces with extremely limited commercial appeal. Under these circumstances, I refuse to quibble about the language of the intertitles.

User avatar
ltfontaine
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:34 pm

#28 Post by ltfontaine » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:09 am

I'll be updating to the French version of Les Vampires as soon as I can afford to.
I find no reference anywhere to a version of Les Vampires other than the Flicker Alley edition. There's a "French version?"

User avatar
Matt
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm

#29 Post by Matt » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:58 am

ltfontaine wrote:
I'll be updating to the French version of Les Vampires as soon as I can afford to.
I find no reference anywhere to a version of Les Vampires other than the Flicker Alley edition. There's a "French version?"
http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B000CR7UUE

User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am

#30 Post by HerrSchreck » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:52 am

Myra Breckinridge wrote:Shrek, with due respect: no "average dummy" would ever buy a silent film. And I agree with Tommaso -- if they're catering for the silents lovers, why can't they be faithful to the original version of the film? This is a way of thinking that I will never understand. The least they could do was like Divisa is doing in Spain: to offer two choices of viewing by way of seamless branching (one with the original intertitles and the other with translated ones).
To this and Tomasso's post below.

Guys-- sorry to be dwinky with you, but if you cannot figure out the reasons that companies like this are creating English intertitles of these for R1 releases, then you may want to contemplate your existence as being in combat with the logic implied in the statement above... that simply watching a silent film makes a person Not A Dummy.

There is, among silent film viewers, the average consumer. They are looking for the film as entertainment, not as a Historical Document like we do. They just wanta see the friggin things like their great grandparents did. Intertitles being subtitled did not exist in the day of those films. It's all very very simple. Directors would send the visuals with flash intertitles for ref or card lists and various markets would create their own intertitles. There are some folks who could turn around and say subtitling is unnatural to the Era and Please Stop, etc. And please, don't unload your anger at me like I'm the one creating these modern intertitles. Write letters, etc, whatever-- I just said I'm going to support Jeff because he's the first one out of the gate and he's putting a lot of bananas into this package and I can't leave him inna lurch.

Fascinating, though.. why does watching silent film guarantee intelligence? Does listening to classical music, going to art school, film school, even learning to become a doctor, running for president Guarantee Intelligence? Since when is liking silent film Anti-Dummy Insurance? The translation issue is stumping the both of you-- you simply cannot understand that they are doing this for the vast balance of the buying public who are Not Like Us, who want the original filmgoing experience-- without subtitles-- replicated. They want to feel what it was like to be the the cinema back then.

In answer to a couple of questions above,
I find no reference anywhere to a version of Les Vampires other than the Flicker Alley edition. There's a "French version?"
I believe it's an MK2 that's on the way that's an alternative to the the Image/Waterbearer LES VAMPIRES-- it's not Flicker Alley in R1. JUDEX is the Flicker Alley Feulliade.

In answer to you Dent, the reason I was asking if you own them (I know from our correspondence that you're a fan of Feulliade) is that, of course, they have recreated english intertitles, and was wondering whether or not you hold off on all silents, at least as purchases, if the original language intertitles are missing. I don't mean the question as a condemnation or putting you on the spot.. just curious if that's your general rule, i e because of the obvious repercussions for the size of your collection.

On the question of who created the intertitles, the filmmaker or the studio-- the answer seems to vary, though there was absolutely a position specifically dedicated to intertitles. Some directors (think Murnau on SUNRISE, or a film where literary figures were brought in to lend their names to the intertitles for prestige, like Murnaus FAUST or CABIRIA by Pastrone) had more clout, but generally the intertitle-writers were brought in for a specific skill to artfully boil down those sections of the script to be reproduced to keep them as clear and concise as possible (for the Average Dummy). You'll notice many times the actors are mouthing words where you can make out a sentence replicating something that is in the actual script, but what appears on screen doesn't match spoken lines (not that this happens all that often in silent films anyhow, i e mouths matching written intertitle dialog). It was the studio that had the final call in most cases, and they could go back rewriting and trimming cards, removing them, until they felt the film had an easy enough "flow". Many directors and screenrwriters have trouble editing themselves, and also have trouble believing the "art" of an element is going to get through in a poetic way with out this or that embellishment or device, whereas the studio, like a writer's editor, had title-writers whose specific job was to live in the economic "less is more" zone (excessive intertitles were often commented upon as being a drag, and their less-intrusive appearances usually got kudos), specializing in finding the best economy with which to present the story in an efficient, concise, yet still stylized-to-some-degree fashion.

As to my tone in my post above... I'm just very very tired of going round and round each weekend with the same folks (not you Sinore Alighieri) lodging the same beefs... again and again and again. Yes, translated intertitles are not ideal for us purists. But simply explaining the rest of the non-techhead, non-purist world doesn't make one responsible for these practices.

User avatar
Tommaso
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am

#31 Post by Tommaso » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:18 am

HerrSchreck wrote: Since when is liking silent film Anti-Dummy Insurance? The translation issue is stumping the both of you-- you simply cannot understand that they are doing this for the vast balance of the buying public who are Not Like Us, who want the original filmgoing experience-- without subtitles-- replicated. They want to feel what it was like to be the the cinema back then.
Just want to point out that it was you who originally wrote "They're catering to the average dummy" with respect to the replaced titles, so I'm not quite sure why the dummy thing is disturbing you now. I was simply trying to reply to this and did not intend any of the far-reaching conclusions you draw from my post.

Still I cannot see why it should be necessary for a company to have to decide whether they cater for those who want to have 'only' entertainment or recapture the filmgoing experience of the 20s (with replaced titles, that is, in non-German speaking countries)) and those who want to have the 'historical document' intact. The great thing about dvd technology is that you can let the individual viewer decide, and that is what divisa are doing by their seamless branching thing, which is perhaps the best way to do it (in addition you could have the option of having the original titles with removable subs, too). This way every one would be happy.

But you're right, this threadmill over the same points in the recent weeks is starting to tire me too. I think everyone has made their points clear... but don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to have the last word, ok?

User avatar
Scharphedin2
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 7:37 am
Location: Denmark/Sweden

#32 Post by Scharphedin2 » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:50 pm

HerrSchreck wrote:As to my tone in my post above... I'm just very very tired of going round and round each weekend with the same folks (not you Sinore Alighieri) lodging the same beefs... again and again and again. Yes, translated intertitles are not ideal for us purists. But simply explaining the rest of the non-techhead, non-purist world doesn't make one responsible for these practices.
Schreck, how about we talk about the film(s)? I have never seen Phantom, but after the revelation of seeing MoC's Faust last month, this is now one of my most eagerly anticipated DVDs. So, what should I look forward to?

User avatar
denti alligator
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:36 pm
Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"

#33 Post by denti alligator » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:13 pm

HerrSchreck wrote:In answer to a couple of questions above,
I find no reference anywhere to a version of Les Vampires other than the Flicker Alley edition. There's a "French version?"
I believe it's an MK2 that's on the way that's an alternative to the the Image/Waterbearer LES VAMPIRES-- it's not Flicker Alley in R1. JUDEX is the Flicker Alley Feulliade.
Schreck, why do you think Mk2 would release an edition of this if Gaumont has already put out a definitive package?
HerrSchreck wrote:In answer to you Dent, the reason I was asking if you own them (I know from our correspondence that you're a fan of Feulliade) is that, of course, they have recreated english intertitles, and was wondering whether or not you hold off on all silents, at least as purchases, if the original language intertitles are missing. I don't mean the question as a condemnation or putting you on the spot.. just curious if that's your general rule, i e because of the obvious repercussions for the size of your collection.
I mostly hold off on purchases of silents without original intertitles, yes. In the cases of films with German or French title cards, I am especially picky, since these are languages I can actually read. With most other languages I am unlikely to read more than the subtitles, even if the original language were present, but on principle and for aesthetic reasons I still prefer that they stick to the "original" titles.

User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am

#34 Post by HerrSchreck » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:51 am

You're right Dent, I don't know why I had the Gaumont VAMPIRES box pegged as an MK2.. hadn't looked at it inna while. If there's no notable increase in image quality I'm not sure if I'd double dip on the Gaumont since all versions of LES VAMPIRES have recreated intertitles breaking the antiquity-spell-- Langlois, as I mentioned, when he rescued the films from oblivion and prepared them for presentation, actually went out of his way to remove the original intertitles... and then proceeded to throw them in the garbage, rather than preserve them for posterity & history. We have David Shepard to thank for re-presenting them laid over the framework of a vintage Gaumont card, with recreated intertitles by going back to the original censor records.

Everyone's choices are their own.. my irritation is primarily with this German crew who comes on here & there bumping elbows with "Ok some Real Germans are going to come on here now and show you folks The Right Way To Appreciate German Film," poo-pooing foreign presentations of their cultural heritage... which, it seems to me, is little more than a lack of appreciation for these R1 co's finding the cojones to release films that pick up the slack vs. their own country's rampant inability to produce a disc of their own classics.......... I understand their frustration, but if it weren't for Kino & MoC & Flicker Alley etc, the Murnau foundation probably wouldn't be able to even justify the transfers-to-digital-beta used round the world. They certainly haven't been using them for discs made for the German people. If I were a german I'd be fuming myself, but I wouldn't direct it at the secondary-source countries who are at least giving me an opportunity to see this stuff. Of course these DVDs are not catering to Germans as they're not meant for that market. (Not trying to have the last word mind you :-#)

PHANTOM is a fascinating, though less immediately engaging than the rest of Murnau's masterpieces, story of a dry bourgoise/philistine (similar to the tales in DIE STRASSE and SUNRISE and ASPHALT) who makes his foray out of the musty middle class world he exists in, leading to psychological disaster. He has a yearning to become a writer/poet, and sees himself thereby winning over his dream girl played by Lya De Putti from DuPont's sublime VARIETE' and Griffiths SORROWS OF SATAN. Obviously since this doesn't come to pass, he sleeps with a whore who resembles his dream girl, becomes increasingly haunted by visions & hallucinations (Phantoms) reflecting his downward spiral stemming from this obsession. You'll see shadows of entire city blocks chasing after Al Abel (who plays the lead.. Count Told from MABUSE, Joh Fredersen from METROPOLIS, etc etc), eerie use of in the camera (of course, as it's 1922, pre-optical-printer era) effects illustrating his visions and hallucinations, wild moving camera effects ( 2 years prior to the LAST LAUGH) circling around Abel as he dances with the young girl, and one of the most bizarre visual effects I've seen in the whole of the cinema: a shot of Abel and the young lady, eating I believe, in a cafe, shot thru a large cylinder... going round and round the inner circumference of that cylinder is a bicyclist, like the bmx kids do today.... round and round and round, upside down, rightside up, looping like on a rollercoaster, beyond which the impossible couple are sitting engaging in a prim, mannered meal.

Basic specs are here, though I wish I could reproduce the images of the dvd set w booklet which Jeff sent with the email he sent to Nick & I and some others.

User avatar
Ashirg
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:10 am
Location: Atlanta

#35 Post by Ashirg » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:59 pm

Did they ship it out on August 21 or was it delayed again?

User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am

#36 Post by HerrSchreck » Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:20 am

I was just about to place a CC order to make sure I got it in before the deadline. I'm guessing you placed an order Greg & didn't get it yet?

I'd sit tight for monday tuesday approx, then if you didn't get it then start worrying ever so slightly. I know he's got the things printed up, his email included a photo shot of the deluxe set w the big book & the 2 discs folded out. Of course it could be a proto-- meaning full inventory was not yet "guaranteed" to be in existence to reassure us. I'm jumping in w the order anyhow. Every penny helps in this particular case. I want to see this company work-- GREISHUS.

Received an email from Jeff on Friday morning, having placed an early, discounted (25.46 w shipping, etc, all total) order online w him a day or two before:
Thank you for you patience. A Phantom DVD is going out to XXXX in the mail today. Thank you very much for your order!

Sincerely,

Jeff Masino

Flicker Alley, LLC
In the pipeline, folks! The wait is over.

PHANTOM is in hand... ditch all your previous editions folks, this is fucking stunning. Mastered from the original nitrate negative, with a fascinating article by Berraitua & Camille Blot-Willens about the method they used to recover the tinting schematic on the film (absolutely fascinating article, reprinted in the beautiful quality color-booklet inside).

On the intertitle issue: there were none.. they exist in the form of flash intertitles, in each instance written by hand across two frames with the emulsion scratched away, written for reference across these frames with a fine pen or marker. So all intertitles will be contemporary, and these English intertitles were created in Germany with the FWMS.

Seeing the rich poetics of this film, the depth of the imagery, the corrected flow of story (and completeness of it as well, based on the corrected, full edit, with corrected, full intertitle-count) , the beauty of the art direction and richness of tints (which compete with the beauty of the rich tints of Joe May's INDIAN TOMB epic, which, with the original tints intact on Shepards nitrate, previously represented to me the most beautifully tinted film I'd seen, and with the most avant of color palettes), and the depth & intensity of performances, I now place PHANTOM right up there with the best of Murnau.

Do not miss this disc, it is worth every penny, it is newly mastered/speed corrected in NTSC (i e no ghosting), it has a wonderful documentary by UCLA's Janet Bergstrom (4 Devils, Traces Of A Lost Film; Tabu commentary) on the making of the film (and more extras)... and supporting Flicker Alley for Jeff's labor of love on this one is about as worthy a cause as exists in the medium of digital versatile discs.

Not to be missed!

User avatar
htdm
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:46 am

#37 Post by htdm » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:34 pm


User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am

#38 Post by HerrSchreck » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:38 pm

A few words about...â„¢ Phantom

It's seldom that a silent film arrives on DVD in a physical state that deserves to receive attention.

This is the case with a new release from Flicker Alley, a Los Angeles firm working with silent cinema.

Once thought lost, and later to have survived in incomplete prints, F.W. Murnau's 1922 Phantom has been restored.

The resultant DVD shows just how beautiful a well-handled silent film can look. With all but the final reel coming from original negative, and with what has been researched as being the original tints and tones, The Phantom is one of the releases that one might purchase more for the quality and historical importance than for the film itself, which is not a film for which Murnau would have been remembered.

A great director, cast and writer will not always guarantee a quality film. The point is proven here in terms of the screenplay by Thea von Harbou (Metropolis). The resultant film is overly melodramatic, and only occasionally exhibits the true Murnau look and spirit.

The synchronized score by Robert Israel is of high quality and works beautifully with the images.

A 15 minute documentary hosted by UCLA's Professor Janet Bergstrom serves as a background to the production and its history, while a booklet, packaged with the DVD, deals with the restoration and selection of color tints and tones, and goes into details that will be of interest to silent film buffs.

I heartily recommend Flicker Alley's release as a step forward toward real quality for the silent cinema on DVD. Consider a purchase in support of film restoration, as well as Flicker Alley.

RAH
I hilighted the "Only occasionally exhibits the Murnau look" for a reason..

There are so many reasons to buy this disc-- aside from the beauty of the disc and the enormous effort and resources put into it's presentation-- that buying it should be the duty of every hardcore American fan of silent film, and for that matter, those global fans chomping at the bit to see the film in it's proper state. Gorgeous restored tints, some of the most beautiful telecine I've ever seen, period, with bitrates nailed at 10. The FWMS master is in NTSC as it was originally created for presentation on TCM, so a costly new master will be necc for PAL-world.

I agree that the film is not, scriptwise Murnau's best-- the melodrama of the scripts clouds the exalted perfection of his images (which are as masterly here as in his later films)-- but it is the illustration of Murnau in transit from the ethereal/naturalistic, slightly airy, open-ended images of NOSFERATU to the absolute mastery of FAUST, SUNRISE, LAST LAUGH etc. Pictorially, this film is breathtaking, and the loving treatment given by Flicker Alley simply could not be surpassed.

Also the nicely done Digitally Obsessed Review.
Final Comments
An important item in the Murnau catalog finally reaches DVD, and Flicker Alley does it justice with an exceptionally fine rendition from the original negatives. Silent fans will surely want to add this to their collections; it's worth seeking out.

User avatar
dadaistnun
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:31 am

#39 Post by dadaistnun » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:45 am

Dave Kehr:

[quote]If every silent film could look like this, the notions of that period's “primitivismâ€

User avatar
Galen Young
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:46 pm

#40 Post by Galen Young » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:31 pm

Got the Phantom disc in the mail last night and watched it – wow! The image quality blew me away. For a so-called lesser Murnau, this film is still a delight to watch. If Flicker Alley is able to do this for any of those five early Lang films mentioned in the brilliant little doc, I'll freak out.

User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am

#41 Post by HerrSchreck » Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:54 am

Flicker Valley's VALENTINO COLLECTION:

Link

Coming in May 2007, two disc set, 3 prev unreleased films.

User avatar
tryavna
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:38 pm
Location: North Carolina

#42 Post by tryavna » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:34 am

HerrSchreck wrote:Flicker Valley's VALENTINO COLLECTION:

Link

Coming in May 2007, two disc set, 3 prev unreleased films.
Dang! When I clicked the link, the very first thing that lept out at me was the title Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which won't be in this set.

Of the other three, I've seen the partially-lost Young Rajah, which is very entertaining -- even in its incomplete state. (It's really one of those movies that makes you realize just how much beauty we lost before people started preserving silent films.) Young Rajah is one of those "orientalist" movies so popular during the 1920s -- though here Valentino is playing a Hindu prince, not an Arab chieftan.

User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am

#43 Post by HerrSchreck » Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:25 am

Something tells me he planned it that way, I dunno... but the exact same thing happened to me to over 4 HORSEMEN. Talk about breathing in real fast and deep-- then deflating like a popped balloon. Set is still interesting for a quiet weeknights watching. I had my appreciation for Valentino's presence upped by BEYOND TEH ROCKS. The lack of exotic foreign costuming etc, the clear print, allowed me to eyeball that subtle sense of Kool he had, the slight toss out of the foot, hunch of the hip & shoulder, almost imperceptible wag of the head here & there. A light touch of Arthur Fonzarelli in the Jazz Age.

User avatar
Scharphedin2
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 7:37 am
Location: Denmark/Sweden

#44 Post by Scharphedin2 » Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:31 am

Having been off and on the site lately, I missed the release of The Phantom, but then ordered it last week, and just received the disc. The film looks fantastic from a brief scan, especially the tints -- which I sometimes find difficult in other silent films, but here they are very lush and almost seem to add dimension to the image, rather than obscure detail.

A few months ago, I purchased Judex and Garden of Eden, both of which to me also look really fine, if not as spectacular as this one. I am adding this comment merely as further incentive for others to pick up this title, if indeed any additional incentive is needed after all the accolades above in the thread. This release is almost exciting as MoC's Faust earlier in the year.

User avatar
Scharphedin2
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 7:37 am
Location: Denmark/Sweden

#45 Post by Scharphedin2 » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:15 pm

Still nothing new with respect to the Valentino Collection mentioned above.

However, apparently there are some things about to happen over at Flicker Alley. Several new releases are mentioned as forthcoming in late 2007 and 2008 through a new collaborative effort between Flicker Alley and Film Preservation Associates. From what I gather, Flicker Alley will be exclusive distributor of films from the Blackhawk Films Collection. Full story here.

User avatar
tryavna
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:38 pm
Location: North Carolina

#46 Post by tryavna » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:31 pm

It's not surprising that Film Preservation Associates has left Image. Several independent DVD producers have. But I wonder if this has anything to do with David Shepard's health. I heard that he was involved in an automobile accident a few months ago, so perhaps he's looking for a potential successor.

At any rate, this can only be a good thing. Perhaps Shepard's influence will cause Flicker Alley to move a little faster, and perhaps Flicker Alley will convince Shepard to slow down a bit and focus more on quality control.

unclehulot
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:09 pm
Location: here and there

#47 Post by unclehulot » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:57 pm

tryavna wrote:It's not surprising that Film Preservation Associates has left Image. Several independent DVD producers have. But I wonder if this has anything to do with David Shepard's health. I heard that he was involved in an automobile accident a few months ago, so perhaps he's looking for a potential successor.

At any rate, this can only be a good thing. Perhaps Shepard's influence will cause Flicker Alley to move a little faster, and perhaps Flicker Alley will convince Shepard to slow down a bit and focus more on quality control.
No, that's not the reason. Image is cutting back on such projects, that's all. David WAS involved in a serious accident, but he's slowly recovering.....and hard at work on a Melies project.

He is working in HD now, btw.

User avatar
tryavna
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:38 pm
Location: North Carolina

#48 Post by tryavna » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:34 am

unclehulot wrote:David WAS involved in a serious accident, but he's slowly recovering.....and hard at work on a Melies project.

He is working in HD now, btw.
All of this is good to know, Hulot. If you're in regular contact with Shepard, tell him that a lot of us are glad to hear that he's recovering.

User avatar
Gigi M.
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:09 pm
Location: Santo Domingo, Dominican Rep

#49 Post by Gigi M. » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:52 pm

Need some advice please. I've wanted to buy Phantom for quite a while now, but the rumors of an upcoming MoC have kept me from doing so. Is this edition worth it? Is it as good as everyone says? Thanks in advance.

User avatar
denti alligator
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:36 pm
Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"

#50 Post by denti alligator » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:58 pm

Gigi M. wrote:Need some advice please. I've wanted to buy Phantom for quite a while now, but the rumors of an upcoming MoC have kept me from doing so. Is this edition worth it? Is it as good as everyone says? Thanks in advance.
Not if you care about original intertitles. Why not wait for the MoC (coming soon enough, probably early '08)? You'll be sure to get great extras and a nice book.

Post Reply