Criterion and UHD

The scuttlebutt on Criterion, Eclipse, and Janus Films. Lists and polls are STRONGLY discouraged.
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MichaelB
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#26 Post by MichaelB » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:55 am

I haven't had my main TV calibrated yet because I gather that there simply isn't an agreed standard for HDR at present, so I'd be paying £200 plus for partial guesswork.

(My office TV is calibrated, but not 4K.)

onedimension
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#27 Post by onedimension » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:30 am

HDR is a messy spec - it can look great, but it isn’t standardized across different sets with different levels of luminance and color. Dolby Vision is. HDR+ may be, soon. A properly mastered 4K/DV image can look very good, even stunning - some of the Marvel shows on Netflix are the best existing demo, and that’s via streaming. The color, depth and detail create a very rich image.

Bad HDR, either because of poor mastering or poor compatibility with a TV set or its settings, is nothing to write home about - sometimes content has, to my eye, a kind of “milky” look. Possibly something similar to the DNR fad.

Criterion couldn’t wade into that environment now easily - there’s an HDR/DV “format war” of a kind, consumer adoption is slow, TV makers are still figuring out the best ways to implement the tech.

Using FilmStruck to stream 2k and 4K masters could be an entry point, but as great as that app is in some ways, they don’t seem to be a very tech savvy bunch.

onedimension
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#28 Post by onedimension » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:24 am

If I had to predict, although you could see some major effort like, say, Warner putting out a 4K disc of "The Searchers" or "Singin' In The Rain" with very very careful mastering and color grading, my guess is that Kino or Shout Factory would be the first to dabble in 4K and HDR/DV mastered releases, because their brands aren't as tightly tied to high art house cinema and consistently impeccable quality, and they have more to gain if they hit a home run. Or some group like Cohen, part of a larger media conglomerate, could put out UHD releases to try to advance their reputation.

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MichaelB
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#29 Post by MichaelB » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:29 am

It's also worth remembering that Criterion has historically been rather slow to adopt new technologies.

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#30 Post by tenia » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:37 am

The first BDs were released (according to Wiki) in June 2006. The first Criterion BD titles were released in Dec 2008.
The first UHDs were released on March 1st 2016. The same time gap would set the first Criterion UHDs to be released in Sept 2018.
So it's not that irrealistic to think that if things go the same way, it shouldn't be long before Criterion ventures into UHD. I doubt it myself, but again, the time gap would be similar to what happened with the BD.
onedimension wrote:my guess is that Kino or Shout Factory would be the first to dabble in 4K and HDR/DV mastered releases, because their brands aren't as tightly tied to high art house cinema and consistently impeccable quality, and they have more to gain if they hit a home run.
I doubt that. Kino is mostly remastering stuff at 2K and are still often struggling with their material. Shout releases are often using pre-existing masters and their newer scans often don't particularly advance things (see what happened with The Thing).

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dwk
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#31 Post by dwk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:48 am

Shout Factory has released a handful of IMAX titles on UHD, but no feature films. And Kino floated the idea of releasing The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly on UHD but, last time they were asked, they said they are going to do it (in general their Leone releases have been plagued with problems.)

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Ribs
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#32 Post by Ribs » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:03 am

I just don't see Kino being format innovators with the strong investment capital to push the envelope ahead of the other boutiques. Criterion will probably start doing it by the end of next year, at the latest.

onedimension
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#33 Post by onedimension » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:40 am

tenia wrote:The first BDs were released (according to Wiki) in June 2006. The first Criterion BD titles were released in Dec 2008.
The first UHDs were released on March 1st 2016. The same time gap would set the first Criterion UHDs to be released in Sept 2018.
So it's not that irrealistic to think that if things go the same way, it shouldn't be long before Criterion ventures into UHD. I doubt it myself, but again, the time gap would be similar to what happened with the BD.
onedimension wrote:my guess is that Kino or Shout Factory would be the first to dabble in 4K and HDR/DV mastered releases, because their brands aren't as tightly tied to high art house cinema and consistently impeccable quality, and they have more to gain if they hit a home run.
I doubt that. Kino is mostly remastering stuff at 2K and are still often struggling with their material. Shout releases are often using pre-existing masters and their newer scans often don't particularly advance things (see what happened with The Thing).
Well, yeah - but my point is that they'd be the first to do it, not that they'd do a great job. More to gain if they get it right, less to lose if they get it wrong, because their quality is already inconsistent. The current 4k studio releases are a mixed bag so far, too.

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#34 Post by tenia » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:45 am

onedimension wrote:The current 4k studio releases are a mixed bag so far, too.
That's not the impression I have, especially regarding catalogue or older titles.
Do you any specific releases in mind ?

onedimension
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#35 Post by onedimension » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:19 pm

tenia wrote:
onedimension wrote:The current 4k studio releases are a mixed bag so far, too.
That's not the impression I have, especially regarding catalogue or older titles.
Do you any specific releases in mind ?
You're right, when I think of it - the situation's improved in the last six months - E.T., Blade Runner, The Bridge Over The River Kwai, or the Chris Nolan UHD discs are fantastic. I was thinking of cases where releases of recent Hollywood movies were 2k masters upscaled to 4k. Blockbuster fodder like Star Trek or Warcraft.

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dwk
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#36 Post by dwk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:14 pm

dwk wrote:Shout Factory has released a handful of IMAX titles on UHD, but no feature films. And Kino floated the idea of releasing The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly on UHD but, last time they were asked, they said they are going to do it (in general their Leone releases have been plagued with problems.)
I guess Kino is planning on releasing The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly and the other two Leone/Eastwood films on UHD:
The good news... Our release of A FISTFUL OF DOLLARS will be the 2016 4K Restoration by L'immagine Ritrovata and will include some very cool new extras - to be announced next week.

And we've just agreed to do a brand new 4K restoration of FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE at L'immagine Ritrovata where we will have some control over the color grading and hopefully we can release it on Blu-ray this Fall or Winter - followed by "hopefully" a 4K/UHD boxed set of the Trilogy next year.

David M.
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#37 Post by David M. » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:33 am

MichaelB wrote:I haven't had my main TV calibrated yet because I gather that there simply isn't an agreed standard for HDR at present, so I'd be paying £200 plus for partial guesswork.

(My office TV is calibrated, but not 4K.)
Actually, there is - home HDR uses the same D65 white point as all other home video, with a rec.2020 color gamut (although realistically current releases and displays are aiming for P3 coordinates inside that). There are calibration workflows in place.

The only part that's not really agreed upon is the tone mapping, that is, exactly how a 1000 nit signal should be downgraded to a 700 nit (those numbers are both examples) display. That's intentionally left up to the manufacturer to deal with. The dust will probably settle on that over the years as manufacturers see what works best - and as max luminance capabilities improve, reducing the need for tone mapping in the first place.

As for how many calibrators can deal with it reliably...

David M.
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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#38 Post by David M. » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:35 am

tenia wrote:The first BDs were released (according to Wiki) in June 2006. The first Criterion BD titles were released in Dec 2008.
The first UHDs were released on March 1st 2016. The same time gap would set the first Criterion UHDs to be released in Sept 2018.
If memory serves, Criterion were waiting out the (insane) HD DVD vs BD format war before jumping in back then.

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Re: Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#39 Post by FlickeringWindow » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:49 am

Does Criterion indicate "4K transfer" instead of "4K restoration/master" to imply that only the scanning was done at 4K, rather than the entire restoration being 4K?

For example, Barry Lyndon is listed as a 4K restoration, while Being There and Blow-Up are listed as "restored 4K transfer" instead.

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movielocke
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Criterion and UHD Blu-ray

#40 Post by movielocke » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:50 am

Probably. A 4K harvest followed by a 2K workflow and finishing was / is common for space reasons, rendering reasons, software reasons, lack of workflows, and lack of workflow experience, and let’s not forget the banal reason that there wasn’t much option for client monitor playback to review the product.

Now that all of these are no longer really problems. 4K harvest for a 2K workflow is becoming less common. Especially now that Apple has been so thoroughly discarded in this realm (they stopped building real computers when they went to the trash can aesthetic and they stopped updating those trash cans an eternity ago) and now modern day PC computing power can be thrown at the morass of footage and nimbly handle it.

Since clients also expect a 4K end product in their deliverables now, you kind of have to abandon the old days approach that had 4K ingest but down rezzed final products.

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Re: Steven Soderbergh

#41 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:40 pm

Would now be a good time to debate on the chances of Criterion getting to release Solaris?

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Ribs
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Re: Isle of Dogs (Wes Anderson, 2018)

#42 Post by Ribs » Tue May 29, 2018 11:49 am

I have a very hard time imagining a world in which, assuming the format hasn't totally crashed and burned without really any signs that it's struggling yet, Criterion still hasn't begun releasing UHD titles by four-plus years from now. So, no, I don't really think it would have been a particularly interesting case.

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Re: Isle of Dogs (Wes Anderson, 2018)

#43 Post by John Shade » Tue May 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Has there been a suggestion if or when they will start UHD releases? Will 8 1/2 and Seventh Seal simply be released again in that format, or will it just be a "from here on out UHD..."?

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domino harvey
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Now to sit back and enjoy pages of debate on this that I don't want to read

#44 Post by domino harvey » Tue May 29, 2018 2:18 pm

Only conjecture. I doubt it will ever happen, I can't imagine Criterion's margins would allow for a niche within a niche like UHD

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Brian C
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Re: Now to sit back and enjoy pages of debate on this that I don't want to read

#45 Post by Brian C » Tue May 29, 2018 3:05 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:18 pm
Only conjecture. I doubt it will ever happen, I can't imagine Criterion's margins would allow for a niche within a niche like UHD
Just start a "Why don't they release only in formats that I want?" thread already.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Isle of Dogs (Wes Anderson, 2018)

#46 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:58 pm

The only place there is a UHD listing for this film is on FandangoNOW. It is $29.99, available only for purchase. This film is indeed eligible for Movies Anywhere, though since there's no UHD listing on the other services that work with Movies Anywhere, you would presumably need to use a 4K device that has a compatible FandangoNOW app. Even then, I can't say I would be completely excited about dropping $30 just to find out if the listing is legit or an oversight until I heard from someone else about it.

Still think this is lined up in a perfect spot to be an early, if not the first, UHD release from Criterion. By the time this comes around in 2-3 years from them, it's entirely possible (probable?) that it'll be the new standard for enthusiasts or even for the general populace who are still buying discs. Otherwise, why would Fox benefit from cancelling every UHD release of a film that's surely ready to be released in that format (possibly except for one niche streaming service)?

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Re: Isle of Dogs (Wes Anderson, 2018)

#47 Post by Ribs » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:01 pm

Hm - you actually have me half-wondering if the release was pulled for that very reason...

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Re: Isle of Dogs (Wes Anderson, 2018)

#48 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:10 pm

Ribs wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:01 pm
Hm - you actually have me half-wondering if the release was pulled for that very reason...
Fox is obviously getting some cash from each copy of a Criterion re-release sold, presumably worked out way ahead of time. So even if they could get a few more double-dips because of a bump in format, why not? Criterion could have made an assurance that by then, they'll be ready to be releasing UHD at least somewhat regularly. Maybe it'll even be sooner than we all expect in an effort to get a special edition out there with the movie still fresh in people's minds. You'd be hard pressed to find even a budget TV that isn't 2160p right now, so I don't see there being much of a need for a substantial delay (2020?).

Not even particularly wishful thinking on my part because I'm not very fond of the film, but why else announce a UHD, have preorders and placeholder art, then cancel it all over the globe?

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domino harvey
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Re: Isle of Dogs (Wes Anderson, 2018)

#49 Post by domino harvey » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:53 pm

Because they didn't get enough preorders? Plenty of labels have canceled Blu-rays, and I'm pretty sure other UHD titles have been delayed for similar reasons. I do not think you should get your hopes up for any film coming to UHD from Criterion

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Re: Isle of Dogs (Wes Anderson, 2018)

#50 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:13 pm

Ever? So the buck stops here with regard to home video formats they're going to release films in? Weren't we having this same conversation not long before they started releasing Blu-ray discs? (The answer is yes, we were)

I'd argue that UHD with HDR is a bigger leap forward than the one from DVD to Blu-ray with regard to the look of an image due to the contrast between light and dark, and my experience with it so far has been absolutely fantastic. If films are being remastered in 4K already (and they have been for years now), why wouldn't Criterion eventually dip a toe in the water a year or two from now?

And the reason Isle of Dogs is unique is because it'd be a reference quality image, and it was cancelled completely (digital and disc) worldwide. Most of the time when a release doesn't have enough pre-orders in one region it ends up still coming out in another. In this case, it was listed all around the world (still found an Australian listing on some sites) and cancelled everywhere. It's not unreasonable to expect a double-dip of the title, and when it comes to Anderson's films, Criterion is usually contractually involved in said double-dipping.

Agree to disagree of course, but it seems short-sighted to stop here when the whole ethos of the label is to be releasing films in as high a quality as technologically and financially (the rub) possible.

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