The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

An ongoing project to survey the best films of individual decades, genres, and filmmakers.
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domino harvey
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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#826 Post by domino harvey » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:53 pm

A Bay of Blood AKA Twitch of the Death Nerve AKA Blood Bath (Mario Bava 1971) A proto-slasher with one idea in its head: make the bloody proceedings one big merry-go-round of culprits until logically Then There Were None. The problem with a joke film like this is that the punchline is too obvious and the delivery's wind-up interminable.

Child's Play (Tom Holland 1988) Having caught a few of the films from this series in passing, I expected the worst from the original. However, the film plays the crazy scenario as straight as it probably ever can be played, and the film indeed goes out of the way to play down any comical tones. The film is surprisingly effective, especially in its first half when poor Catharine Hicks is put through the wringer and not the young child actor. That said, I have no desire whatsoever to visit the sequels-- I think I'm finally learning my lesson!

the Craft (Andrew Fleming 1996) Fleming is responsible for one of the best films I've seen for this project (Bad Dreams) and one of the funniest satires in memory (Dick). So I was no doubt setting myself up for a letdown. But, boy, this is such a muddled and weirdly innocuous mess! Imagine all the satiric possibilities inherent in the idea of a teenage coven of witches and then dash them away for bad mid-90s horror blah-ness and safe targets, because that's all the Craft conjures. There's one original moment in the film that feels like an Andrew Fleming contribution and not just work-for-hire: The white trash mother of one of the girls inherits a small fortune and subsequently buys herself a jukebox which only plays Connie Francis records. Note how the most interesting part of the film involves neither witchcraft nor any of the main characters.

Cursed (Wes Craven 2005) Kevin Williamson and Wes Craven team up again, though God only knows why it had to be for this shockingly bad CGI werewolf fest. I will admit that the novelty of seeing Jesse Eisenberg in a horror movie got me through this (Guess I need to see Zombieland), but there's nothing else of value here, not even the wasted Craig Kilborn cameo. I watched the "unrated" DVD version, not the initially released PG-13 version, so I guess those wanting to see a bunch of extra CGI blood and beheadings would be wise to do the same.

Don't Be Afraid of the Dark (John Newland 1973) William Demarest in a painter's cap going up against Victorian-era gremlins is of course universal in its appeal, but as with Gargoyles, I think I had to be in the target viewing audience upon its original airing to really have any response above a shrug to the rest.

the Dorm That Dripped Blood AKA Death Dorm AKA Pranks AKA Zzzzz (Stephen Carpenter and Jeffrey Obrow 1982) Wanna hear something really scary? Somehow this shitty, often actually unwatchable movie has enough popular cachet to justify a Blu-ray release. AHHHHHHHHH!!!

Final Destination (James Wong 2000) One of the last post-Scream teen horror films to make waves, this slasher cleverly reduces the needs of the genre so far down down that it renders the ubiquity of a physical killer superfluous. Unfortunately the film doesn't take its high concept into any surprising arenas. Most of the famed elaborate deaths are caused by unseen external forces (who love their W elements), not merely compounded incidentals, which effectively dulls their novelty and impact. The film does fleetingly touch on a topic of interest in the varied reactions of the survivors to their savior, and there could have been a better movie made in these moments without the Grim Repo's handiwork. All complaints of this film, of course, seem less pressing and it's practically masterful in contrast to the immediate sequel!

Final Destination 2 (David R Ellis 2003) This is a lot closer to how sight-unseen I imagined the series: Loud and obnoxiously protracted death sequences occasionally punctuated with plot. This is a particularly uninspired sequel, breaking all known rules and setting up ludicrous and dull misdirections until it becomes clear that the filmmakers are merely fucking with the audience, and not in a way benefitting their film. This method works in their favor exactly once
SpoilerShow
When they set up a slew of uninteresting and bland teens as the new set of victims and then have a truck plow through most of them post-premonition
But then the law of diminishing returns goes into effect immediately after and never dissipates. I don't know why the film didn't just have WWF wrestlers pop out of the ground and body-slam each victim, pausing periodically to crack a dirty joke or pull down some girl's top, before hopping back down into their special Hyper-Spectral Tunnels, because that would please the core audience just as much and make equal sense as the free-roaming machinations now transpiring against these targets.

Final Destination 3 (James Wong 2006) I went into this series out of morbid curiosity and only got this far because I bought the first three Blu-rays and figured I might as well get my money's worth. So you'll forgive me if I'm a bit flabbergasted at how great Final Destination 3 is-- not just comparatively to its worthless brethren but as a horror movie in general. Also, being more or less self-contained (there are fleeting references to the events of the first film), it is not necessary to watch the first two to enjoy it. Here, finally, is a film that completely plays by the rules and is all the scarier for it. Every single accidental death in this film is unaided by the supernatural, the focus fully shifted to being a giddily creative collection of the ultimate Wrong Place, Wrong Time experiences ever, and for the first time the violence and danger packs a punch. It's stylish (the 'Scope screen is wisely utilized and filled), well-made and acted (Mary Elizabeth Winstead brings a somber weight to the film as the first character in one of these things to actually behave recognizably human), and despite being the darkest of the films, it has a cruel but effective sense of humor (a tricky balance, as the failures of the first two films show).

Another entry for the sublist of horror films with sequences that could double as effective self-contained shorts, the film opens with one of the finest action sequences I can recall, addressing the fleeting safety fears of roller coasters with terrifying specificity. It's a virtuoso sequence that left me physically trembling in its wake-- I'm not scared of amusement park rides any more than I am of flying or the highway, but the filmmakers convincingly employ computer and practical effects, sound design, and editing in the most epic derailment this side of the Greatest Story Ever Told, forming a pulse-pounding realization of a nightmare I never knew I had. How wonderful that the ability to be fully stimulated by a special effects light show still exists!

The film trips over itself to top the opening as the survivors are yes, of course, picked off one by one by… well, as I said, nothing. The first two films were about fate and the hand of some divine power-- theistic films. Final Destination 3 says there's nothing guiding us to our destruction but our own actions and the actions of others. If we owe a debt to the world (in the abstract), sure it will collect… but then again, of course it will-- we all die. In a weird way, this entry for once plays completely fair, especially in how it takes the logic of the given scenario all the way down to its inevitably bitter end, and as a result the film proves most cruel of all. One of the best films I've seen for this project, and certainly the biggest pleasant surprise.

Going to Pieces: the Rise and Fall of the Slasher Film (N/A 2006) I'm in the middle of the source book now, but this documentary has only a passing resemblance to its namesake and is little more than a made for TV collection of talking heads all fawning over themselves. I was glad I put off watching this 'til after I'd gotten through the brunt of the films covered, because the doc spoils without warning the endings of Halloween, A Nightmare on Elm Street, Prom Night, April Fool's Day, Scream, Friday the 13th, Happy Birthday to Me, Graduation Day, and Terror Train (the last two I hadn't seen yet, though-- d'oh!), among others.

Hatchet (Adam Green 2007) / Hatchet II (Adam Green 2010) Outside of the novelty of seeing sitcom C-stringers like Joel Murray and Richard Riehle within a slasher film, the first Hatchet offers only amateurish and overly violent attempts at reclaiming the spirit of Friday the 13th's middle run, as though that were an advisable activity. However, the first film literally has no ending, so I felt compelled to seek out its sequel despite not much enjoying the original. This is one of those "teachable moments" I keep hearing about: Don't watch Hatchet II. Stop. Don't. No. No no no no no no. No.

Where to even begin? Well, despite picking up immediately where its precursor left off, the Final Girl is now played by a "scream queen" (quoting Wikipedia here) who bears a close resemblance to Fisher Stevens and has exactly one acting mode: whining. Oh, but if only she were the film's biggest problem! The first film was an ill-conceived but passable scrape at the folk tale slasher made popular in the 80s that nevertheless ground everything to a halt to display its disgusting special effects. Now those gross-out effects are all that's carried over. The sequel, ever eager to increase its body count, even features a slaughter montage early on, in which horrible things are depicted with the flippancy of alleged irony but none of the wit or humor required to make the gruesome events palatable. I've found in my viewings for this project that most of these films are fairly innocuous and say less about the audience than the economics of their production, but here's the rare and sad exception. I pray to God that I never meet face to face with anyone who thinks a "funny" or "super cool" filmic moment involves the following:

A blonde is participating in degrading sex in the middle of the swamp (in the middle of a manhunt, no less). She begs her partner to tell her he loves her. After his feeble attempts to avoid the issue (while still mounting her), he is decapitated. His headless body still gyrates into the woman as she moans with pleasure. Eventually she discovers her predicament, dismounts the corpse, and attempts to run away. This attempt is halted by the killer, who reaches under her skirt and viciously swings his hatchet up through her legs, penetrating her vagina with his weapon. He then hacks his hatchet so deep between her breasts that he has trouble removing the tool from within her shattered ribcage despite many attempts to set it free. This entire sequence is filmed with the same "serious" CSI-style color timing as the rest of the film and is no way presented with anything approaching lightness or comedy, only sad and gratuitous attention to its mean-spirited violence.

If this is indeed the film that saved the horror genre, as one of the cards that runs after the credits claims, at what cost?

the House on Sorority Row (Mark Rosman 1983) As I've said before, it only takes a film like this being a little bit better than its brethren to generate a fair amount of good will, and this is thankfully an effective variation of a familiar story that humanizes its victims, presents them within an increasingly manic plot device, and never lingers on the violence or pain inflicted. The climax features one of the all time great hidden villain reveals as well.

May (Lucky McKee 2002) --mfunk9786 Spotlight-- Fascinating and slickly-made character study of a deeply damaged young woman whose social awkwardness and anxieties have rendered her not just cracked but shattered-- and as the film's visual metaphor explains, you can't glue a thousand shards of glass back into a display case anymore than May can be helped. As the film barrels deeper and deeper into the psychosis of the titular character, it only bolsters the empathy of the viewer to this poor woman who was probably beyond help long before the rejections and alienations pushed her over the edge. Credit to Angela Bettis for her striking portrayal and McKee for his sure hand in letting the downslide unfold towards its inevitable yet weirdly sweet culmination. Great Spotlight, mfunk (and LQ, I presume), this is a film I would not have sought out on my own, and now it's making my list.

Mystery of the Wax Museum (Michael Curtiz 1933) One of the breezier horror flicks of the early thirties, this is a light but enjoyable run-through of the familiar murderous wax museum proprietor story. Fay Wray gets higher billing but this is Glenda Farrell's movie and she has a ball doing her wisecracking newspaper woman thing.

Prom Night (Paul Lynch 1980) In a genre so defined by heritage, it's of some interest to finally see one of the slasher blueprints. I thought the film cleverly played on the expectations of Halloween in its escaped mental patient red herring, and there's some attempts made at characterization. Also, it's interesting to note that the first victim is actually the girl who doesn't give it up-- I guess the slasher Xeroxers conveniently overlooked that part when carboning the morality of the rest. That being said, the eventual reveal isn't nearly as dramatic as the film wishes and all the scenes of stalking and slaughter pale to the extended self-contained sequence of Jamie Lee Curtis and date disco dancing on the dance-floor. Imagine if the copycats had brought the tradition of a dance sequence into their ripoffs!

Scream (Wes Craven 1996) While perhaps not quite as clever or original as it thinks it is (this is not the first slasher to be self-referential or reflexive), Craven does breathe new life into his own bag of tricks thanks to Kevin Williamson's star-making script. Though it's directly responsible for the mid-90s wave of teen-centered horror films and thus ranks as one of the most important and influential films of the decade, it succumbs once too often to its own bag of sloppy tricks for me to completely co-sign its fevered fandom. I will say that never having actually seen Jamie Kennedy at work before, I'm convinced he's the man to play Jerry Lewis in whatever percolating biopic necessitates such ability.

Scream 2 (Wes Craven 1997) But whatever reservations I have about Scream are erased for the sequel, which immediately justifies watching the first just to pick up on the myriad of jokes this sequel makes at its expense. Frankly, this is everything I expected out of the first: It's clever, it's convoluted, it's often smart-- and even when it's dumb, it's dumb in a smart way. The references are fewer and smarter than those that weighed down the original (The single funniest moment in the film comes courtesy of a cameo-ing Joshua Jackson dropping the most esoteric answer ever to the query "Name a sequel better than the original"), mostly because Scream 2 is having too much fun tearing apart its predecessor. By the time the chain link of villainy is exposed, the movie keeps layering on complications and reveals until the film becomes a giddy Agatha Christie-esque cacophony of contrivance (a positive trait it shares with the fourth film in the series)-- and that's a compliment. I didn't really think a Wes Craven film would make my list, but here we are.

Scream 3 (Wes Craven 2000) At the end of Scream 2, I was pretty sure I'd seen everything a film like this could do with the concept and had no idea where a third film could possibly take the story. And neither did the filmmakers. This is the only entry in the franchise to not be written by Williamson, as Ehren Kruger, possibly the worst Hollywood screenwriter to still find work, was handed the reigns and boy does it show. Braindead and cheap-looking, this is a film with no reason for being, as the sequel offers a weirdly serious take on the material that kills what I assume are supposed to be the "funny" parts, rendering it all one big whatever.

Scre4m (Wes Craven 2011) If Scream 2 left me wondering what could possibly justify Scream 3, Scream 3 left me even more skeptical, especially coming over a decade after the previous installment. Much to my delight, the film does indeed have something of interest to say, and its target of horror movie remakes is inspired and timely. Also, though it's no easier to figure out whodunnit than any of the other films, the eventual reveal of the villain and their motivation is probably the most sensical of any of the films, despite being the most outlandish. Kevin Williamson gets himself and Craven back in the good graces after the debacle of Cursed with a script that made me laugh almost as much as the second. I see a lot of reviewers criticized the film for being "old fashioned," but isn't that the point?

the Serpent and the Rainbow (Wes Craven 1988) Oh man was this a bad idea. Craven is already too fond of nonsense imagery and superfluous dream sequences, so giving him the keys to a voodoo story was like letting Russ Meyer loose in a Hooters. The less said about the poor attempts at political commentary between all the soul-snatching et al, the better.

Teeth (Mitchell Lichtenstein 2008) A regrettable example of false feminism. Yes, the protagonist's body has "adapted" to ward off unwanted sexual advances (so long as those advances come vaginally), but the film still puts repeatedly puts her into positions of rape and violation, with the outcome always the same. By the end it's all one big Ha Ha Funny, as she smirks to the camera before allowing a dirty old man to violate her. The idea that all men are either deplorable over-exaggerations of negative masculine traits or "nice guys" who put on a front of understanding to mask their desire to rape a pretty girl is simplistic at best but not nearly as objectionable as the idea that the way for a woman to navigate this field is to be raped, repeatedly, and then castrate her assailant. This isn't reclaiming victimhood, it's exploiting it.

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knives
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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#827 Post by knives » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:01 pm

I haven't seen the Hatchet's yet, but Green's followup Spiral is a great sensitive film concerned more with the fragile psychology of its lead character than any horror. You won't be jumping out of your seat, but you should be loving the characters.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#828 Post by Mr Sausage » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:10 pm

domino harvey wrote:Child's Play (Tom Holland 1988) Having caught a few of the films from this series in passing, I expected the worst from the original. However, the film plays the crazy scenario as straight as it probably ever can be played, and the film indeed goes out of the way to play down any comical tones. The film is surprisingly effective, especially in its first half when poor Catharine Hicks is put through the wringer and not the young child actor. That said, I have no desire whatsoever to visit the sequels-- I think I'm finally learning my lesson!
Child's Play 2 is worth watching just for its climax in the doll factory, which is so outrageous and colourful it feels like a cartoon. Everything preceding that is somewhat weak but still not bad. The climax, however, is one of the rare times in an eighties mainstream horror flick where the full wacky potential of a good idea is actually capitalized on.

Avoid Child's Play 3 like you should've avoided Scream 3 (or Cursed, or Dead Dorm, or a lot of things you've capsuled in this thread, actually).

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#829 Post by matrixschmatrix » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:14 pm

Good Lord, domino's description of Hatchet II is enough to make me feel queasy, and not in a 'whoa I have been blasted out of my bougie decadence' way.

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colinr0380
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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#830 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:55 pm

The first Child's Play is definitely the best of the 'serious' first three films (I think Tom Holland is quite underrated as a horror director simply on the basis of Child's Play and Fright Night, both of which nominally star Chris Sarandon. Holland apparently turns up in an acting part in domino's bete noire, Hatchet II!) Parts of Child's Play 2 are good - I especially like the scene of Chucky gleefully 'murdering' the family Good Guy doll, burying it in shallow grave (with a great reveal of the 'body' later on!) and taking its place while nobody is looking.

The callous foster parent subplot is also quite nice too, where the young boy seems to immediately be viewed with suspicion for his mother going into the looney bin, which is a kind of continuation of the child at the centre of the carnage being treated like a liar by most of the adult characters from the first film! If it isn't bad enough having a murderous doll stalking you, how horrible it must be to be a sweet kid having all of these events blamed on you, to the extent that you eventually get 'recalled' to the orphanage as damaged goods!

However Jenny Agutter gets kind of wasted as the foster mother. On the other hand Grace Zabriske gets to make her own brand of weird impact in her few scenes as the guardian at the orphanage - and she gets a death by a combination of doll and photocopier in a scene that even David Lynch in his wildest nightmares couldn't have dreamt up!

The climax is OK - kind of an amusing variation on the ending of The Terminator. Eye violence ahoy though in a scene in the doll factory (inevitable and cruelly amusing in the obvious way it gets drawn out)!

I agree with Sausage that Child's Play 3 isn't that great, although the melting down and reforming of Chucky at the start is quite a neat sequence. It is also one of those sequels that does the disorienting thing of being made only a year or so after its contemporary-set predecessors, yet features a lead character who is almost a decade older!

Things have definitely fallen into the slasher film mode at this point, and Chucky has long outstayed his welcome - he is evil to our main characters but otherwise he mostly kills subsidiary characters who are broadly characterised as unsympathetic and deserving of death, such as the greedy toy company boss or scaring the officious military colonel into having a heart attack with him collapsing on top of his model army! I suppose though that there is some novelty in there being a death by garbage truck! The setting of this one in some ways reminds me of the military academy setting of Damien - Omen II (which also jumped decades in its lead character's life in sequels only a couple of years apart), but perhaps that is a combination of the setting and needing to make most of the early murders look like accidents. Nothing really to get overly excited about, and the film never deserved to become notorious when it was scapegoated by the tabloid press in in murder cases in Britain.
Last edited by colinr0380 on Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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mfunk9786
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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#831 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:27 pm

Glad to hear your thoughts on May, domino. I think I'm a more ardent fan of it than LQ by a country mile, but she still should brace herself for yearly Halloween viewings until death does she part. McKee's other work, particularly his unfairly maligned Masters of Horror episode, is worth seeking out. Yes, even the highly flawed The Woman.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#832 Post by Mike_S » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:08 pm

I'd like to spotlight/recommend Pupi Avati's The House With Laughing Windows. After a bizarre but essential sequence under the opening credits, it begins like a giallo as an art historian arrives in a small Italian town to restore a fresco in the local church. He becomes involved with a local siren and meets up with an old friend but things go wrong when the friend is found dead. His death is followed by that of various townsfolk and our hero begins to discover the horrible truth behind the fresco. Gradually, giallo becomes supernatural horror as the story leads to an outlandish climax.

Obviously influenced in some ways by Don't Look Now, Avati's film is nasty, atmospheric, often disturbing and always riveting. It has a sense of dread which is hard to shake off and one of the most brilliant final five minutes of any film I have ever seen with a twist in the tail which is simultaneously ludicrous and remarkably logical. Very very highly recommended.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#833 Post by Dr Amicus » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:46 pm

colinr0380 wrote: Nothing really to get overly excited about, and the film never deserved to become notorious when it was scapegoated by the tabloid press in in murder cases in Britain.
I remember the headlines the day after the judge in the Bulger case made his idiotic comments about violent horror videos - one of them was a big close up of Chucky with something like "For the sake of all our children, Burn your video nasties NOW!". For years, Chucky was scapegoated by the media and became synonymous with the Bulger case - actually completely erroneously as it soon transpired - and so the reception of these films in the UK is undoubtedly different to most countries. For an interesting analysis, there's a good article by Martin Barker - always good value when dealing with moral panics - in an issue of Sight and Sound shortly afterwards. If someone who has easier access than I do can check the actual dates, that would be helpful.

Indeed, the term "video nasty" I suspect is one that is locally specific to Britain - it emerged in the early 80s, and the whole phenomenon is fascinating. Leaving aside the details, the result was that, for close to 20 years, horror films were particularly prone to censorship over here and certain films - the official "Video Nasties" as defined by the Director of Public Prosecutions - still have a certain cache amongst horror fans. Just based on personal experience, I can verify that Fulci certainly is extremely popular - as recently as 2000, my Anchor Bay DVD of The Beyond (then still technically banned in the UK) was seen as particularly hard core amongst several people I knew.

It would be interesting to speculate how much the reputations of certain key films - especially The Exorcist and The Texas Chain Saw Massacre - have fared due to their status as "Banned" (although the former was legally available at cinemas - just never in a home viewing format until 1999)

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knives
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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#834 Post by knives » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:54 pm

It's definitely an English specific thing in certain ways. I remember even as an American kid with other layman any time the term was brought it was specifically in reference to England. Even the phrasing is one of those English pieces of poetry. That's probably the real staying power of their image. Such a great name. The Exorcist and The Texas Chain Saw Massacre by the way were never officially video nasties though I'm sure they were hard as hell to find.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#835 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:57 pm

Dr Amicus wrote:Indeed, the term "video nasty" I suspect is one that is locally specific to Britain
I can confirm your suspicion. The term is unknown in North American culture. I myself only came across it in a documentary on the history of the Video Nasty moral panic that Anchor Bay had included in one of their Evil Dead dvds.

Between loud music, horror films, and violent video games, it's a wonder every young male in the Western world isn't a violent sociopath by now. Lock up your children, everyone.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#836 Post by dustybooks » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:25 pm

I definitely heard the "Video Nasties" term for the first time ever in the last few years when researching the Bulger case, which I was reading a lot about after it was mentioned on a documentary about A Clockwork Orange. Even the case itself isn't particularly well-known over here.

Did anyone ever go the extra mile and actually make a horror film (besides the documentary) called "Video Nasties"? Slasher in a video store maybe? I'd watch that.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#837 Post by tarpilot » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:48 pm

I know I came up with a particularly gruesome one in my head during Film Geek

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#838 Post by Sloper » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:43 am

Dr Amicus wrote:Indeed, the term "video nasty" I suspect is one that is locally specific to Britain - it emerged in the early 80s, and the whole phenomenon is fascinating. Leaving aside the details, the result was that, for close to 20 years, horror films were particularly prone to censorship over here and certain films - the official "Video Nasties" as defined by the Director of Public Prosecutions - still have a certain cache amongst horror fans. Just based on personal experience, I can verify that Fulci certainly is extremely popular - as recently as 2000, my Anchor Bay DVD of The Beyond (then still technically banned in the UK) was seen as particularly hard core amongst several people I knew.

It would be interesting to speculate how much the reputations of certain key films - especially The Exorcist and The Texas Chain Saw Massacre - have fared due to their status as "Banned" (although the former was legally available at cinemas - just never in a home viewing format until 1999)
I remember when the BBFC held up the release of Reservoir Dogs on VHS, and it played constantly in cinemas for (I think) about a year. This was 1994/5 I think. The whole thing made it so much more exciting when the video finally came out and I was able to see it.

I'm incredibly nostalgic about the VHS format, and I think that has a lot to do with the thrill of holding those nice chunky plastic boxes, with the lurid '18' certificate glaring out at you (American videos just weren't the same, with their flimsy little cardboard cases and an 'R' hidden away somewhere on the back), and knowing that these were films Mary Whitehouse didn't want you to see. My local video rental shop was amazingly permissive (everyone working there was permanently high), so they let me rent things like Videodrome, Deep Red and The Wicker Man when I was 13 or 14. I'm not sure I'd have got the same transgressive feeling by ordering a copy from Amazon.

Others have probably philosophised about this more intelligently, but there was a tangible quality to the video - a sense that something really nasty was rolled up in all that tape, and you'd listen to the player whirring (and squeaking if it was an old one) as it unspooled. I remember watching the entirety of Twin Peaks on a video player so knackered that you could only watch about a minute before a line of static invaded the screen and the sound faded out. Once a minute, I had to rewind for a second and press play - and the remote control was broken, so I had to lean forward and press the buttons on the player itself. This meant there were hundreds of moments in the series that I saw twice in quick succession, and a lot of those moments (Laura's mother remembering her glimpse of the killer in the bedroom, Leland hurling Maddy across the room, etc) are still etched in my memory like nightmares I once had. I know it sounds weird, but I'm so glad I watched it that way.

Nakata's Ring exploited the unique and uncanny qualities of the VHS brilliantly, and just in time. I thought the American remake, with its more sophisticated special effects, kind of missed the point and neutralised the screechy, rough-hewn horror of the original.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#839 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:51 pm

Dr Amicus wrote:
colinr0380 wrote: Nothing really to get overly excited about, and the film never deserved to become notorious when it was scapegoated by the tabloid press in in murder cases in Britain.
I remember the headlines the day after the judge in the Bulger case made his idiotic comments about violent horror videos - one of them was a big close up of Chucky with something like "For the sake of all our children, Burn your video nasties NOW!". For years, Chucky was scapegoated by the media and became synonymous with the Bulger case - actually completely erroneously as it soon transpired - and so the reception of these films in the UK is undoubtedly different to most countries. For an interesting analysis, there's a good article by Martin Barker - always good value when dealing with moral panics - in an issue of Sight and Sound shortly afterwards. If someone who has easier access than I do can check the actual dates, that would be helpful.
The tabloids (and if I remember correctly some of the judges in the case, despite the fact that there was only evidence that the killer's father had watched the film) had a field day with Child's Play 3, which seemed very reiminiscent of the video nasty scares of the early 80s, though with the awful twist that there were now attempts to associate specific films with specific acts.
Dr Amicus wrote:Indeed, the term "video nasty" I suspect is one that is locally specific to Britain - it emerged in the early 80s, and the whole phenomenon is fascinating. Leaving aside the details, the result was that, for close to 20 years, horror films were particularly prone to censorship over here and certain films - the official "Video Nasties" as defined by the Director of Public Prosecutions - still have a certain cache amongst horror fans. Just based on personal experience, I can verify that Fulci certainly is extremely popular - as recently as 2000, my Anchor Bay DVD of The Beyond (then still technically banned in the UK) was seen as particularly hard core amongst several people I knew.
The talk of the cache that the films have reminds me that aged 17 on a daytrip to York (actually the day after Princess Diana died) I tried to buy a copy of the (heavily BBFC edited) VHS video of The Evil Dead. I just was interested in the film and hadn't realised that it was particularly 'notorious', but then had the shopclerk ask my parents if it was acceptable for me to watch. Luckily my parents did not have any objections and so I managed to buy the video and see the film for the first time!
Sloper wrote:I remember when the BBFC held up the release of Reservoir Dogs on VHS, and it played constantly in cinemas for (I think) about a year. This was 1994/5 I think. The whole thing made it so much more exciting when the video finally came out and I was able to see it.
Here is a good piece from the Film '94 programme about that period (and the stalling on a certificate for Natural Born Killers as well), with many crime spree films seeming to have been caught up in tightened censorship in the wake of the Child's Play 3 issue. I still remember Reservoir Dogs getting its first (unedited but 1.85:1 widescreen cropped) screening on Channel 4 in 1997 preceded by a half hour show debating the controversy! And I seem to remember that Natural Born Killers actually got premiered on Channel 5 in 1999 before it got any kind of legitimate VHS or DVD release in the UK!

Then of course the next big British tabloid frenzy was about Cronenberg's Crash, which the Daily Mail tried to turn into a yearly tradition to diminishing returns by going on to condemn Lynne Stopkewich's film Kissed (which has an extremely similar plot to Nekromantik 2 but is perhaps more understated and tasteful than the Buttgereit. Although perhaps a tasteful film about necrophilia is an oxymoron! It certainly was too much for the Daily Mail!) and getting upset about Adrian Lyne's Lolita remake.

Luckily we don't seem to have those kind of scares for video now that the media has moved onto scares over material available over the internet instead!
knives wrote:
Dr Amicus wrote:It would be interesting to speculate how much the reputations of certain key films - especially The Exorcist and The Texas Chain Saw Massacre - have fared due to their status as "Banned" (although the former was legally available at cinemas - just never in a home viewing format until 1999)
The Exorcist and The Texas Chain Saw Massacre by the way were never officially video nasties though I'm sure they were hard as hell to find.
I personally think Texas Chain Saw Massacre is still a very powerful piece of work. The Exorcist I think benefited from the notoriety of being withdrawn from circulation for 25 years before it was eventually reissued - it just all seems a bit silly now, with that Repossessed parody of it starring Linda Blair and Leslie Nielsen far scarier!
Last edited by colinr0380 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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knives
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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#840 Post by knives » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:14 pm

I'll agree with that last point. Without trying to sound nostalgic I've only ever seen TCSM on VHS and the blocky grimy way it looks on the format disturbs, rather than scares, me so much I don't think it could be as powerful in a more 'proper' home video setting needing the theatrical. It took me about two or three viewings to get what is so disturbing about the film but it is one that genuinely knows how to crawl under the flesh and press apart the skin in such a way as to force regurgitation without being particularly graphic (I think the finger sucking scene has the most blood). There's also something about that VHS fuzziness that makes it feel very immediate. For comparisons sake I finally got to watching Cloverfield for this and that film has no feeling whatsoever despite the documentary and what have you. In part I think this may have to do with how clean the film is. Certainly the TCSM characters aren't particularly fleshed out beyond maybe Franklin, but even with its traditional shooting style gives a greater sense of reality to the characters and film on the whole through just how ugly it is.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#841 Post by zedz » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:27 pm

Since we're (sort of) talking about The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and why it works the way it does, my vote goes to pacing. Unlike most horror movies at the time and today (after Psycho, which really set the template up beautifully), which followed a tight tension-and-release format in which suspense leads inexorably to an explosive set piece (or a Bus), then things settle down as the threat recedes for whatever reason, so the same pattern of suspense, suspense, explosion can be set up again, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre builds to its first big horror set piece, then never really lets up - it's basically blind terror from then on out (though Hooper is smart enough to be able to pace the horrors within a range of panic and dread). Character beats, back story, conventional plot development and so forth are all swept away by a desperate fight for survival. After setting up (maybe a bit sloppily), the character dynamics of the group of kids in the first section, all those character arcs sort of flatline into "run for your life" and / or "uh-oh, too late" as the film's narrative becomes more primitive and abstract.

It's the third in an Unholy Trinity (along with Psycho and Night of the Living Dead) of horror movies that wrong-foot their audiences by demolishing the rule book and establishing a new paradigm, but few subsequent films have been able to match its structural radicalism or make its innovations work so effectively.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#842 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:22 pm

It is also the whole swelteringly hot photography and abrasive sound design both of which are constantly assaulting the viewer with unexpected angles and edits or bangs and screeches, to such an extent that the jump scare murders are just the climaxes that were always threatening to arrive. They suddenly smash through that tension but then don't exactly release the audience but return them to the state of tension at when it will happen again. For all the grimy horror and depravity on display the murders of the expendable teens happen very fast and mostly bloodlessly. Most celebrated is perhaps the 'hung on a meathook' scene which unforgettably manages to convey a disgusting scene and the terror of the victim through implication more than gore and entrails flying everywhere.

This contrasts with the drawn out terrorisation of the 'final girl' in the final section in the house as the previously competently quick killers keep her around to toy with and try to get the oldest member of the family to kill her, drawing out the horror to an even more uncomfortable effect. The audience is perhaps wishing for Sally to at least get a quick death like her friends rather than be pushed into insanity by what she is witnessing, and this is denied her in the horrifically drawn out sequence (apparently James Ferman, the director of the BBFC, said that the reason he continually refused a UK classification for the film is that the cumulative impact of the soundtrack, the screaming and the terrorisation but without there being any gore to easily remove the film was almost impossible to edit into an 'acceptable' form. It's a great example of a horror film being about the atmosphere it creates as much as what it shows). The 'no blood' rule eventually gets broken here too with the cutting of Sally's finger, which proves that the smallest event can have a lot of impact.

Even the final escape and action set piece, which gives the filmmakers an excuse to break out the chainsaw again, is perfectly judged (the film, perhaps strangely, also seems as if it gives equal weight to both Sally's plight and to the troubles that the family is having with the group of teens, especially in the final link between insane/relieved laughing and dance of frustration). It's a shattering film.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#843 Post by domino harvey » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:38 pm

Black Christmas (Glen Morgan 2006) I must admit befuddlement at those who approach modern slasher remakes with "How dare they"-isms, especially given that this is a genre in which even the best entries could be much improved with little effort. So after enjoying Morgan's work on Final Destination 3 and liking but not feeling any powerful affection towards Bob Clark's original, I went in optimistic. Turns out this piece of shit is no doubt exactly why people don't like horror remakes: It completely misses the point, and while that's not such a big deal, what this film makes the point is so wrong-headed and misguided that it inspires one to just hurl expletives at the screen while this is playing. And then when the film is over, the DVD itself. And with a few more saved up for if you ever walk past it in the $3 bin at Wal-Mart. For fans of inbreeding eyeball-eating attic-dwellers only.

Bloody Birthday (Ed Hunt 1981) This is widely considered to be a slasher film, and while technically that's true, it strikes me as more of a glossy riff on Village of the Damned/the Bad Seed, with three little ten year old shits up to no good. The film has a good time teasing its own implausibility, as how can you get anyone to believe that a kid would murder someone for no apparent reason? This isn't a great film, but I saw it in the company of far worse films, leading me to be a mite more affectionate than I might otherwise be inclined.

the Cabin in the Woods (Drew Goddard 2012) I'm not sure where all the unbridled enthusiasm for this film comes from… is it because it makes the viewer feel smart for recognizing cliches so fully inundated in our pop cultural consciousness that they've transcended commentary like this? Fundamentally this is a really dumb film hinged on plot points so bold and brash that apparently a wide audience has digested and regurgitated them as clever without regard to how smug these machinations are.
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I'm all for Lovecraftian Gods needing to be appeased, but the absurd lengths to which these five victims were slaughtered was never satiric or witty enough to justify the nonsensical reality of its reality.
The early passages of the film with Bradley Whitford and Richard Jenkins exchanging wry dialog while organizing filmic terrors could have made a fine short subject, but the film goes for broke and never once convinced me it had anything truly novel to add to the genre, commentary or otherwise. I could never engage with Cabin in the Woods because the film claims superiority while being an inferior product.

Cutting Class (Rospo Pallenberg 1989) Bottom of the barrel VHS fodder that signified another cough from the dying slasher genre. Martin Mull cashes a paycheck as the comic relief and of course Brad Pitt's subsequent fame is the only reason anyone still knows this exists at all. There is perhaps some teachable value in how poorly the filmmakers use red herrings and POVs in ways that counteract their effectiveness as misdirections.

Girls Nite Out (Robert Deubel 1984) Average slasher with some remnants of respectability present. The villain's method of execution is the best thing here: He or she appropriates the mascot's costume from the local university… they're the grizzlies. The assailant tapes four kitchen knives to the paw to form claws. I gave an appreciative chuckle at that one.

Madhouse AKA There was a little girl… (Ovidio G Assonitis 1980) Gorgeous 'Scope Video Nasty featuring the best slasher cinematography this side of Halloween. It's funny how such refined aesthetics can help along the film's typically amateurish acting and plot-- aspects present here which feel much more at home in the genre. Some additional bonus points awarded to the villain, who plays it to the hilt as all such ridiculous characters should.

Sorority Row (Stewart Hendler 2009) My first investigation into slasher remakes was pretty dire, but I hit trip' sevens on my second attempt. Again, this too is a remake of a better-than-average slasher (the House on Sorority Row) produced by filmmakers who have changed the intent and function of the basic plot. However, the changes here are marvelous-- it's not only an almost completely different film, it's a better one. To be clear, Sorority Row makes a cohesive and clever feminist statement, ridiculing patriarchal relationship behavior patterns towards women, both endorsing and critiquing concepts of "sisterhood," presenting all of its main female characters with strong traits which sometimes go against male concepts of femininity (a choice which has led many amateur reviewers to label them "bitches"-- the ultimate mark of disrupted gender notions), and providing its female characters a comical distance from the "seriousness" of their predicament. Watching this film in close quarters with so many other slashers shows just how advanced the film's sexual politics are-- this is the most legitimate feminist slasher I've seen yet. To those skeptics I can tempt to watch despite almost no one else liking this film, pay close attention to how the film undermines many of the sex-based conventions of the genre while still functioning within said perimeters. It's easy to make a film chastising or making fun of movies like this, it's harder to make one that critiques from within. Given the ice-cold reception it received from critics and audiences alike, maybe there's an additional message there.

Sweet Sixteen (Jim Sotos 1983) Underage coquette bums around small town, people die, a few Native Americans get thrown in for novelty's sake, and, well, that's about it. Terrible sub-Grindhouse production values with a cinematic value to match. This is what the dregs of the slasher genre looks like, and that's saying something.

Visiting Hours (Jean-Claude Lord 1982) The film suffers from a fatal misconception, but one valuable for examining why and how slashers function: By revealing immediately that Michael Ironside is the assailant, the film removes the hallmarks and (however negligible) pleasures the genre affords, and in place is something that actually feels grimier and worse than the average stalk-and-slash. There's nothing to Ironside except a misogynistic violent streak, and we're saddled with him for nearly two hours as he senselessly pursues the TV host protagonist because she had the gall to defend a battered woman on the air. This is of course malarkey meant to excuse the non-stop woman-centric brutality that follows. What poor Lee Grant is doing in this mess is anyone's guess.

Can y'all tell I'm in the middle of reading a couple critical studies of slashers?

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#844 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:32 am

This veers into tl;dr territory, I know. Sorry?
Domino Harvey wrote:Visiting Hours (Jean-Claude Lord 1982) The film suffers from a fatal misconception, but one valuable for examining why and how slashers function: By revealing immediately that Michael Ironside is the assailant, the film removes the hallmarks and (however negligible) pleasures the genre affords, and in place is something that actually feels grimier and worse than the average stalk-and-slash.
Worth noting as a kind of genre marker, but the above is typically (tho' not always) the thing that distinguishes a slasher film from a giallo: in a slasher film, the identity of the killer is not in dispute. Even for masked killers like Michael Myers or Jason Voorhees, their masks aren't disguises but essential parts of their identities.

It's interesting that slashers are a lot more stripped down, almost reductionist exercises in plain terror and disgust. The typical structure is a group people being systematically murdered for arbitrary reasons (bunch of counsellors at recently reopened camp, girl stops by the wrong house on the way to school, girls have slumber party on the wrong night, or look into the wrong van). There is something almost casually nihilistic in this when you compare it to the general mode of the very similar giallo. A giallo, too, has groups of people being murdered systematically, but those murders are not empty or arbitrary moments of horror. The murders form a pattern of meaning (often fetishistic and sexual, always crazy) whose significance the agent of the film, our would-be detective, must solve in order to unlock the killer's identity and resolve the pattern. They are like Miss Marple or Hercule Poirot detective stories, only the intellectual-guessing-game aspect is replaced with visceral emotions such as terror, suspense, and disgust, and the gamesmanship aspect is further undermined by the fact that the detective is usually an amateur thrust in the role by accident, removing the sense of safety and control you'd get with a seasoned professional. Indeed, in a lot of giallos, the authority and power is given instead to the killer, the author of the mystery, who's busy ordering the entire world around their private fears and desires. The detective is often a hapless victim in the killer's game, struggling to keep up with the onrush of symbols and almost constantly in danger himself (in Argento's films, the audience is almost always included/implicated in this through cryptic symbols and clues meant only for the audience, making us an equally hapless seeker of the pattern in all the perversity).

With a giallo, there is often a slightly more complex interplay between horror and artistic pleasure. Argento is the one who probably makes the most of this, but it's found in many giallos. It breaks down to pattern makers and pattern solvers, except the pattern makers make patterns out of horrific things, and the pattern solvers--audience included--take pleasure in assembling those horrific pieces until the awful whole is comprehensible. Murder can be exciting, and even more so when it suggests all sorts of wild perversities are hidden behind them, waiting to be discovered. There is a creative element in the horror, and a pleasure to be had in seeing all the horrors line up meaningfully.

Slasher movies do away with patterns and the detective side of things and focus exclusively on the visceral emotions that the giallo had used as a replacement for the safe intellectualized aspect of the detective story. Look at a prototypical early example like Friday the 13th. The killer's identity is a mystery, but it's not one to be solved. Everyone in the movie is totally unaware that they are being stalked. Even the audience isn't given clues, as indeed the movie relies on a trope that makes clues irrelevant: the killer who is a whole new character. If the giallo was vulgarizing the detective novel, the slasher is vulgarizing the giallo. The murders don't need to add up to anything, and we don't need to know why they happen. You might almost think that slashers were pushing the whole murder pattern into the abstract if the movies themselves didn't belie that (they are grounded in too many petty specifics).

Some (usually more successful) slashers are simply giallos that are called slashers because they aren't Italian: The Prowler, My Bloody Valentine, the superb, grungy Alice, Sweet Alice. Some side-step the sense that the goings on are wasteful and meaningless by making the audience unsure about what's real or fake (April Fool's Day), or by making that wastefulness and meaninglessness a tangible part of the movie's atmosphere (Black Christmas). But for the most part, in a slasher there doesn't need to be a motive, a reason, a meaning, or any knowledge to be gained. Just a killer, an instrument, and bodies. That's mostly what defines it. The best ones either, as I said, move towards giallos, contain their emptiness as a theme, play a kind of game, or in the case of stuff like Halloween, turn it all into something beautifully stylish.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#845 Post by matrixschmatrix » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:40 am

Mr Sausage wrote: A giallo, too, has groups of people being murdered systematically, but those murders are not empty or arbitrary moments of horror. The murders form a pattern of meaning (often fetishistic and sexual, always crazy) whose significance the agent of the film, our would-be detective, must solve in order to unlock the killer's identity and resolve the pattern. They are like Miss Marple or Hercule Poirot detective stories, only the intellectual-guessing-game aspect is replaced with visceral emotions such as terror, suspense, and disgust, and the gamesmanship aspect is further undermined by the fact that the detective is usually an amateur thrust in the role by accident, removing the sense of safety and control you'd get with a seasoned professional. Indeed, in a lot of giallos, the authority and power is given instead to the killer, the author of the mystery, who's busy ordering the entire world around their private fears and desires. The detective is often a hapless victim in the killer's game, struggling to keep up with the onrush of symbols and almost constantly in danger himself (in Argento's films, the audience is almost always included/implicated in this through cryptic symbols and clues meant only for the audience, making us an equally hapless seeker of the pattern in all the perversity).

With a giallo, there is often a slightly more complex interplay between horror and artistic pleasure. Argento is the one who probably makes the most of this, but it's found in many giallos. It breaks down to pattern makers and pattern solvers, except the pattern makers make patterns out of horrific things, and the pattern solvers--audience included--take pleasure in assembling those horrific pieces until the awful whole is comprehensible. Murder can be exciting, and even more so when it suggests all sorts of wild perversities are hidden behind them, waiting to be discovered. There is a creative element in the horror, and a pleasure to be had in seeing all the horrors line up meaningfully.
That's interesting, by that definition the giallo genre would be sort of a link between the slasher and the J-Horror, in which there is nearly always a mystery that is metaphysical and though solvable is also essentially unresolvable- and certainly the character of the non-professional or ill-equipped detective figure is common to both. In fact, you could probably class something like Kurosawa's Cure as both a giallo and a J-Horror, if not fairly purely a giallo.

Also, it seems as though Se7en fits well into the giallo mode, for all that it features real, paid by the state detectives- there's no question where the power and the control in the film lies, and much of the interest is in the sickening aesthetic through which John Doe pursues his muse.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#846 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:48 am

That Seven has a killer wearing a black trenchcoat, hat, and gloves kinda seals it.

Cure is almost an extension of one of Argento's favourite themes, where the killer and detective come to resemble each other as they both become obsessed with the exact same pattern and the exact same objects. Only Kurosawa's film takes it one step further with a detective who is so much the opposite of intellectual, so much a figure of plain emotional energy, that he ends up inhabiting the exact same space as the killer and perhaps even takes on his role at the end (lot of 'perhapses' actually with that movie, to be honest). Although Kurosawa's movie is ambiguous enough that I can't explain the why's or how's of it, not at least without another watch.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#847 Post by domino harvey » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:23 am

Sausage, that's an interesting post and argument, but I cannot co-sign with your distillation of the Slasher, which designates one form of the genre as The form of the genre. It's important to look at the totality of these films and their genre markers, as using your definition, at least 80% of the films generally accepted as Slashers would now be non-Italian Giallos!

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#848 Post by Satori » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:55 am

the Cabin in the Woods (Drew Goddard 2012) I'm not sure where all the unbridled enthusiasm for this film comes from… is it because it makes the viewer feel smart for recognizing cliches so fully inundated in our pop cultural consciousness that they've transcended commentary like this? Fundamentally this is a really dumb film hinged on plot points so bold and brash that apparently a wide audience has digested and regurgitated them as clever without regard to how smug these machinations are.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
The early passages of the film with Bradley Whitford and Richard Jenkins exchanging wry dialog while organizing filmic terrors could have made a fine short subject, but the film goes for broke and never once convinced me it had anything truly novel to add to the genre, commentary or otherwise. I could never engage with Cabin in the Woods because the film claims superiority while being an inferior product.
I guess I didn't read the film as being nearly as smug as you did. It seems to me that by the time the third act is underway, the film has lost any claim at superiority or smugness over the genre and is pretty much just wallowing in its pleasures. I agree that the identifications of the genre clichés earlier in the film are incredibly obvious, but the rather over the top manner in which the film does this (the pheromones; the “demolition department”) seem to undercut any serious commentary. I think you can really see how much the filmmakers are enjoying themselves in their design of all the monsters. It is certainly bold, brash, and probably stupid in several places, but I think this is evidence of a sincerity that counteracts any position of superiority over the genre as a whole. While it is critical of some horror conventions, Cabin is still a cheesy B-movie commenting on cheesy B-movies that is forever caught between a dialectic of love and hate for the genre. As someone who loves horror films but, for example, considers themselves a feminist, I really identified with this ambivalence.

So in its more obvious moments, such as when the film's only nude scene is intercut with Bradley Whitford and Richard Jenkins staring at the scene on a monitor, I think it is both doing the cliché thing and making us complicit in the gaze while simultaneously poking fun at itself for being so obvious with its textbook application of Mulvey. I think it is primarily the absurdity of the whole setup (and familiarity with Whedon's past work) that makes me think there is something more going on than a simple “look at us being so clever and commenting on how women are objectified in a horror film.” Plus, the film has already invoked the gaze and reversed it in the one way mirror scene. Then later on, when only the “virgin” archetype is alive, Bradly Whitford says totally straight faced something like “It's so strange; I can almost feel myself identifying with her now,” which seems like an obvious reference to Carol Clover's famous slasher paradigm in Men, Women, and Chainsaws where she argues that the implied male viewer switches his identification from the killer to the final girl in the final act of a slasher film. As a film student and horror fan/feminist, Joss Whedon is certainly familiar with this text (incidentally, he also named a character after Robin Wood in Buffy). Maybe this is smugness, but I feel like the over the top earnestness also kind of takes the piss out of it. Like the film is poking fun at itself right along with the slasher film tradition.

Finally, I think the thing that really sold me was the ending.
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The scene with the two of them sitting on the steps sharing a joint as the world ends is strangely beautiful. The film, like all Whedon's work, is fundamentally about the strong relationships between friends, and the exchange between them here where she apologizes for almost shooting him and he says “I'm sorry for letting you get attacked by a werewolf and ending the world” is touching. There is also something indescribably energizing about the giant hand coming out of the ground before the credits roll; this isn't just the end of the world, but it is a becoming of something radically new.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#849 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:41 am

domino harvey wrote:Sausage, that's an interesting post and argument, but I cannot co-sign with your distillation of the Slasher, which designates one form of the genre as The form of the genre. It's important to look at the totality of these films and their genre markers, as using your definition, at least 80% of the films generally accepted as Slashers would now be non-Italian Giallos!
Hey, I welcome any correction. You've probably seen more slashers than I have by this point.

But as to your last point, if this weren't a distinction, nearly 100% of giallos would be Italian slashers. Which I suppose could be true (despite giallos being the older genre and having none of the familiar slasher tropes), since genre definitions are always problematic. But as slashers tend to be copycats, I see two general moulds they can take from:

A. Halloween/Friday the 13th mould
B. Giallo

I tend to consider A. the prototype of what we understand to be the American slasher film (tho' it may not be, as you point out, representative of much of what gets lumped in the genre); it's certainly the mould that started the boom in the late seventies and early eighties, and it's a more stripped down and less complex type of film than the giallos of the 60's and 70's tended to be.

I'm not against slashers, I don't have any moral objection to them, but I do find them less interesting than the giallo. That's just me, tho'.

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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

#850 Post by domino harvey » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:17 am

From Richard Nowell's Blood Money, an illuminating economics-driven study of preconceived notions regarding the first cycle of teen slasher films (the most shocking perhaps is his disproving of the fiction, furthered by myself and countless others, that Halloween had an immediate impact on imitators from a production standpoint). Apologies for the highlighted text, as I searched for the passage on Amazon rather than typing it all out from my book:

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