Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Project)

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domino harvey
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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#126 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:12 pm

About two weeks left before lists are due. I have received this many lists so far:

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knives
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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#127 Post by knives » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:20 pm

I'm hoping to see Gett before submitting mine, but will definitely do so. This idea died an unfortunate death, but I suppose it should have been expected given the personality of the site.

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domino harvey
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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#128 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:23 pm

Well, this thread will always be here for people to contribute to after the fact. It remains to be seen how many lists we'll end up with for the final tally, but as far as active participation goes... no, this hasn't been successful in the least.

EDIT: To be clear, thank you to those members who have been posting in this thread, your efforts have not gone unnoticed!

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zedz
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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#129 Post by zedz » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:14 pm

I was very keen on this list project when it was first proposed, but I had a kind of crisis of faith once it got underway.

I'm an atheist, but a great many of my all-time favourite films have an explicit spiritual dimension that I strongly respond to. But when I started to compile a provisional list, I found myself getting bogged down in subject matter, and saw the makings of a list of films that dealt with religious subjects or religious characters, and which I really liked, but which felt much less 'spiritual' to me than various other favourites that didn't fit so obviously into the films of faith 'genre'. So I let it lie and allowed myself to get distracted by other things.

The other night I revisited that primitive list and found it so oddly alienating (considering it was comprised of films I loved) that I decided to abandon genre and subject matter entirely and instead focus on creating a list of films that gave me that mysterious spiritual (or existential) frisson that was the first thing that intrigued me about the prospect of this list project. So I will be submitting a list, but it's probably going to be much freer in terms of genre definition than originally anticipated. I will therefore be welcoming in such 'spiritual in spirit' films as The Quince Tree Sun, Motion Painting No. 1 and Fish and Cat.

The oddest thing about this approach is that it has an extremely strong modern bias. I can't find any silent films that I respond to in this particular way (no, not even The Passion of Joan of Arc, which pushes all kinds of aesthetic buttons but doesn't set off my 'spiritual' alarm - in fact, Dreyer's comparatively secular Gertrud is the only one of his films that comes close to that).

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#130 Post by knives » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:28 pm

I have to admit to approaching the list in a similar way, and I believe I stated as much at the beginning. While it was easier to rent and look for viewing films with an explicit religious dynamic such as A River Runs Through It it's the films that are most obliquely about the subject and stir ideas of religiosity either academically or in the abstract such as Footnote or The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser which have stirred my interest and intellect in the subject. That's a hard and abstract goal especially when it comes to finding new movies to watch rather then chancing upon them like I did with the Herzog.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#131 Post by swo17 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:45 pm

There should be lots of godless orphans then! This is probably the genre where I'm least stretching the definition (I doubt I'm the first to call any of these films religiously themed, and I even consider a lot of those Arts & Faith picks to be quite a stretch).

But hopefully you guys will bring up (if you haven't already) your choices that aren't likely to occur to anyone else without outside prompting. I'm still open to suggestions.

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domino harvey
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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#132 Post by domino harvey » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:54 pm

I'm sure you've already seen it due to your undergraduate minor in Shannyn Sossamon, but looking at my prospective list the only non-"obvious" film I haven't already talked about is Wristcutters: A Love Story, which gives us a look at what the afterlife looks like for people who commit suicide. Spoiler: it's just like the world they left, only a little uglier and less pleasant. It's a surprisingly sweet romantic comedy at its core, but wonderfully dark and mordant all the same

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#133 Post by zedz » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:19 pm

knives wrote:I have to admit to approaching the list in a similar way, and I believe I stated as much at the beginning. While it was easier to rent and look for viewing films with an explicit religious dynamic such as A River Runs Through It it's the films that are most obliquely about the subject and stir ideas of religiosity either academically or in the abstract such as Footnote or The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser which have stirred my interest and intellect in the subject. That's a hard and abstract goal especially when it comes to finding new movies to watch rather then chancing upon them like I did with the Herzog.
Kaspar Hauser is a good choice I had overlooked. I felt like my list needed some Herzog on it but haven't decided on a title yet. I was toying with Land of Silence and Darkness or Lessons in Darkness.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#134 Post by domino harvey » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:23 pm

zedz wrote:I was very keen on this list project when it was first proposed, but I had a kind of crisis of faith once it got underway.

I'm an atheist, but a great many of my all-time favourite films have an explicit spiritual dimension that I strongly respond to. But when I started to compile a provisional list, I found myself getting bogged down in subject matter, and saw the makings of a list of films that dealt with religious subjects or religious characters, and which I really liked, but which felt much less 'spiritual' to me than various other favourites that didn't fit so obviously into the films of faith 'genre'. So I let it lie and allowed myself to get distracted by other things.

The other night I revisited that primitive list and found it so oddly alienating (considering it was comprised of films I loved) that I decided to abandon genre and subject matter entirely and instead focus on creating a list of films that gave me that mysterious spiritual (or existential) frisson that was the first thing that intrigued me about the prospect of this list project. So I will be submitting a list, but it's probably going to be much freer in terms of genre definition than originally anticipated. I will therefore be welcoming in such 'spiritual in spirit' films as The Quince Tree Sun, Motion Painting No. 1 and Fish and Cat.

The oddest thing about this approach is that it has an extremely strong modern bias. I can't find any silent films that I respond to in this particular way (no, not even The Passion of Joan of Arc, which pushes all kinds of aesthetic buttons but doesn't set off my 'spiritual' alarm - in fact, Dreyer's comparatively secular Gertrud is the only one of his films that comes close to that).
My own take on what makes a film fit this genre is pretty clearly laid out in the first post of this thread. Godspeed to those taking a creative approach, but, to paraphrase Wallace Shawn in My Dinner With Andre, I don't understand what you're talking about. I mean, I understand, but I don't. The lists of any and all are accepted, so fear not, but I think your re-envisioning of the project fails to honor the spirit of this genre. Perhaps I'm just not understanding your criteria for selection, because it sounds like you're CCing films that could show up here into a list and calling it spiritual. Can you share a less amorphous window into your culling process and the driving goal behind it?

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#135 Post by zedz » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:54 pm

swo17 wrote:But hopefully you guys will bring up (if you haven't already) your choices that aren't likely to occur to anyone else without outside prompting. I'm still open to suggestions.
Well, this is going to be very rough and ready, since I'm only working on a first draft, but here are some films that probably wouldn't appear to be overtly 'religious' to most people, but which set off my spiritual tripwire and I'm likely to include:

Apotheosis (Lennon / Ono) - On the surface merely documentary, but the title clearly pegs this as a spiritual metaphor, and it's a doozy.
Le Pont des Arts (Green) - Maybe it's the music, maybe it's the mise en scene, but this film effortlessly attains the sublime.
Hear My Cry (Drygas) - Like Brakhage's The Act of Seeing with One's Own Eyes, which I brought up when this project was first mooted, this is a film that brings you in direct contact with your own mortality and thus acts as a kind of spiritual / existential mirror (at least for me).
Mirror (Tarkovsky) - For the same reasons that a couple of his more overtly religious films are likely to make my list, which has little to do with their explicit subject matter but a lot to do with the sense of personal revelation they convey.
City of Pirates (Ruiz) - Because I'm determined to include it on every single genre list. Not really, but this film climaxes in one of the mightiest metaphysical jolts I've ever experienced in a cinema. I still don't entirely understand why that is, but it definitely feels like it belongs on this list.
Goodbye, Dragon Inn (Tsai) - A lot of Tsai's films seem to haunt a realm slightly beyond the material, and this is the one that goes furthest in that direction for me.
The Power of Kangwon Province (Hong) - This film also dabbles, very subtly, in the metaphysical, but enough to qualify for me. The way in which supernatural forces manifest themselves only glancingly feels to me much closer to the way in which spiritual revelation ought to operate than more explicit treatments.
The White Meadows (Rasoulof) - Midway between a spiritual and a political allegory, so let's split the difference.
Diamonds of the Night (Nemec) - Another of those films that for me achieves transcendence through the sheer intensity of its engagement with materiality.
Jauja (Alonso) - There's clearly an edge of the supernatural to the goings-on in this film, and whether those count as religious or not is probably a matter of taste, but stylistically this sets off the right synapses for me.

And the following are some films that I feel do tick the 'religious content' box, but which might not have occurred to people:

Melody for a Street Organ (Muratova) - A Christmas story with nothing but contempt for what Christmas currently means.
A Walk Through H (Greenaway) - Heaven? Hell? Hertfordshire? Whatever H stands for, our intrepid traveller ain't coming back.
Medea (Pasolini) - Plenty of Pasolini films that incorporate modern or ancient religions, but this is the one that affects me the most.
Journey to the West (Tsai) - Hey, Hey It's the Monks!
Chronicle of Anna Magdalena Bach (Straub / Huillet)
Le Revelateur (Garrel)
La Sapienza (Green)

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#136 Post by knives » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:20 pm

For me the Ruiz of the day will definitely be The Film to Come which I suppose is his most explicit tackling of monastic constructs.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#137 Post by colinr0380 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:24 pm

I'll back you up in A Walk Through H at least, zedz!

My list is probably going to be a little wonky too, in the sense that I'm probably going to include moments of spiritual transcendence as much as anything organised religion-based. Hence The Wings of Honneamise and Time of the Wolf are going to get a look in.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#138 Post by zedz » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:19 pm

colinr0380 wrote:I'll back you up in A Walk Through H at least, zedz!

My list is probably going to be a little wonky too, in the sense that I'm probably going to include moments of spiritual transcendence as much as anything organised religion-based. Hence The Wings of Honneamise and Time of the Wolf are going to get a look in.
This pretty much gets at what I'm talking about in a concise and elegant way.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#139 Post by swo17 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:13 pm

Melody for a Street Organ (Muratova) - A Christmas story with nothing but contempt for what Christmas currently means.
I think I can see this. The Christmas setting alone wouldn't be enough for me to qualify it, but the steady flow of uncharitable behavior on display makes that setting more than just incidental. A great, great film either way, and it of course counts as double duty for the 2000s list.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#140 Post by zedz » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:32 pm

swo17 wrote:
Melody for a Street Organ (Muratova) - A Christmas story with nothing but contempt for what Christmas currently means.
I think I can see this. The Christmas setting alone wouldn't be enough for me to qualify it, but the steady flow of uncharitable behavior on display makes that setting more than just incidental. A great, great film either way, and it of course counts as double duty for the 2000s list.
Plus it ends with
SpoilerShow
a travesty of a nativity scene, in which the child is discovered dead in his 'cradle'.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#141 Post by swo17 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:59 pm

Hadn't thought of it that way, but yes! *hiccup*

I also just rewatched The White Meadows. I'd say the split between political and religious allegory is more like 80/20, and even that only to the extent that you consider God to be obliviously cruel.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#142 Post by zedz » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:48 pm

swo17 wrote:Hadn't thought of it that way, but yes! *hiccup*

I also just rewatched The White Meadows. I'd say the split between political and religious allegory is more like 80/20, and even that only to the extent that you consider God to be obliviously cruel.
I was thinking the allegory pertained more to organized religion, or theocracy, than to God itself.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#143 Post by domino harvey » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:46 am

Agnes of God (Norman Jewison 1985) Meg Tilly's young nun is being investigated for the murder of her newborn baby and court-appointed psychiatrist Jane Fonda tries to figure out who the father was and if Tilly is guilty of the crime. The film is pretty rote for most of the running time, with Fonda's role as the skeptical lapsed Catholic particularly useless, but then the last ten minutes reveal something far more interesting at play
SpoilerShow
Just when it looks like the film is preparing to wrap a bow on everything by revealing via hypnosis who Tilly slept with, she spontaneously (and gorily) exhibits stigmata and the film posits that Tilly was in fact raped by God and she killed the baby out of anger at the Lord for her lack of consent. It's a perverse but fascinating take on the Virgin Mary ethos: "What if Jesus was aborted" moved from Pro Life protest to actual occurrence! But then the film pretty much just ends, and the lingering questions don't give the film a sense of ambiguity but one of being left unfinished.

If for some strange reason you've unspoiled this without having seen the film, you might not want to bother seeing this now, because a lot of the enjoyment of this audacious (and bloody) moment comes from its unexpected bravura-- it's a bit like recommending a great Twilight Zone episode by telling you the ending. The film did kind of remind me of a more self-serious and outwardly respectable version of the anthology horror films which were all the rage in the 80s, only sold as prestige cinema (which, Oscar noms aside, when it works best, this film is not).
Recommended on the strength of what's in the spoiler box. Between her justly Oscar nommed turn here and her even better presence in the Girl in a Swing, Tilly has really cemented herself for me this round as an actress of note who hadn't been on my radar outside of her role as the qt gf in the Big Chill.

Citizen Ruth (Alexander Payne 1996) Don't believe the hype, this film doesn't really skew both sides of the abortion debate equally, probably because only one side really lends itself to the degree of mockery which could sustain a comedic satire. So we get softball lobs at the left and more insightful and biting commentary for the right of the issue, and I think therein lies the social commentary regardless! Laura Dern is fantastic as the irredeemable pregnant drug addict at the center of a national debate, and the extent to which people are willing to extend a belief in theory into practice when faced with the repugnant reality of an idealistic situation is quite fun to watch here. This isn't a great film, and I remembered liking it a lot more when I saw it on HBO years ago, but it still has its virtues and succeeds in its own small ways.

Evilspeak (Eric Weston 1981) Clint Howard is a bullied youth at a military academy who gets revenge on his tormentors by conjuring Satan (or a Satanic priest, it wasn't very clear) who aids him with the help of hungry hogs and a convenient computer program. The only interesting thing that happened in this film was when I realized that the main antagonist was a young Bob from That 70s Show. Otherwise, I guess the appeal here is supposed to be one of vicarious thrills on the part of the picked-on at seeing bullies get their comeuppance, but I don't think you have to be a jock to not get much in the way of enjoyment out of this whole affair.

Francis of Assisi (Michael Curtiz 1961) Strangely inert religious film made, as far as I can tell, with no theological purpose and without much interest by all involved. It's almost worth recommending for the strange fusion of religious pandering and total disinterest on the part of those who made it. Otherwise, though, I think this one's safely skippable.

the Girl in a Swing (Gordon Hessler 1988) Based on a novel by the author of Watership Down, this is one of the saddest films I've ever seen. A study in how an offhand comment stated casually in conversation can fester so deep it ruins multiple lives, with the resultant grief becoming so powerful that it literally manifests itself as an unexplained spectral force. In one sense this is one of the best and purest uses of the "supernatural" in film, in that it merely creeps in and remains unexplained, which could have been frustrating due to the lack of closure but is ultimately narratively fitting for this story. Meg Tilly is the textbook definition of bewitching here as the flighty translator who captures the heart and mind of a stuffy antique dealer and throws herself without due propriety into a relationship doomed in advance by the necessary actions undertaken to participate in it. The Girl in a Swing is 100% Tilly's movie, and the camera is more in love with her than even the protagonist. The film is long and deliberately paced, but this leisurely approach gives the central love affair a welcome depth and makes the creeping inevitability of the past's return all the more tragic. In the end this film stands with Man of the West as key explorations of the failure to escape one's past, and it's just as grimly hopeless. Even the attempts to find comfort in the forgiveness of sins offered by Christ is proven unattainable in a spectacular public display of failure. For all of its erotic charge, the film is unnervingly joyless in the overwhelming atmosphere of anxiety it relates, in recreating the gnawing feeling of knowing something good isn't, knowing a public front won't last, and knowing no matter how hard you try, the past has irreversibly set your future. A feel-bad masterpiece.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#144 Post by swo17 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:23 am

zedz wrote:
swo17 wrote:Hadn't thought of it that way, but yes! *hiccup*

I also just rewatched The White Meadows. I'd say the split between political and religious allegory is more like 80/20, and even that only to the extent that you consider God to be obliviously cruel.
I was thinking the allegory pertained more to organized religion, or theocracy, than to God itself.
Perhaps, but then it would seem to just lay the same barbs on organized religion that it does on any other sort of hierarchical power structure. I do think it's a more interesting (though almost unbearably bleak) allegory if it's about God vs. man, and there's enough of the supernatural here to support that interpretation, though I suppose that reading would require us to overlook God's supposed omniscience. Also, if one of the big things you get from religion is a sense of the purpose behind human suffering, then this film is going to really bum you out!

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#145 Post by zedz » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:44 pm

swo17 wrote:
zedz wrote:
swo17 wrote:Hadn't thought of it that way, but yes! *hiccup*

I also just rewatched The White Meadows. I'd say the split between political and religious allegory is more like 80/20, and even that only to the extent that you consider God to be obliviously cruel.
I was thinking the allegory pertained more to organized religion, or theocracy, than to God itself.
Perhaps, but then it would seem to just lay the same barbs on organized religion that it does on any other sort of hierarchical power structure. I do think it's a more interesting (though almost unbearably bleak) allegory if it's about God vs. man, and there's enough of the supernatural here to support that interpretation, though I suppose that reading would require us to overlook God's supposed omniscience. Also, if one of the big things you get from religion is a sense of the purpose behind human suffering, then this film is going to really bum you out!
Hey, maybe they'll build a resort there and the masterplan will suddenly come into focus!

And given the context in which it was made, isn't the hierarchical power structure in question implicitly theocratic? Just as the awfulness at the heart of Osama isn't just patriarchy, but specifically a fundamentalist Muslim patriarchy.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#146 Post by swo17 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:00 pm

I must concede ignorance to the specifics of Iranian politics (beyond their being exceedingly repressive) but Wikipedia says that they operate under a hybrid parliamentary democracy/theocracy, so I guess you win. You win a jar of my tears.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#147 Post by knives » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:42 pm

It also makes sense culturally as Iranian Islam doesn't really function under that sort of personification of god. Poking at the Ayatollah makes more sense.

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#148 Post by zedz » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:19 pm

swo17 wrote:You win a jar of my tears.
Great! I have the perfect place to put that!

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#149 Post by swo17 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:20 pm

Why is God letting this happen to me?

:cry:
\_/

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Re: Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Proj

#150 Post by zedz » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:34 pm

Well, my list is all over the place, but it's in.

I just noticed that my spotlight title, named back in December, never made it to the opening post, so for what it's worth, it was Brakhage's The Act of Seeing with One's Own Eyes.

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