Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

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domino harvey
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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#101 Post by domino harvey » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:09 pm

It’s my number one, barring some unforeseen rediscovery this week


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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#103 Post by knives » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:37 pm

Considering it is functionally Chabrol's Breathless I would be shocked if it didn't make our top five when all is said and done.

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#104 Post by sinemadelisikiz » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:13 pm

Coming into this project, Les bonnes femmes was my prospective number one, and it still seems to be the case. I'm bummed that the best release we have is that non-anamorphic Kino DVD. Someone please tell me I'm wrong!

Edit: I'm currently watching The Twist, and it's shockingly bad. Why is everything pitched to the same histrionic yet stilted level?

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#105 Post by domino harvey » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:35 pm

I've got bad news: not only is that the only English-subbed commercial version available, it's truncated from the original French version by at least six minutes! I was discussing my suspicion of the differences with therewillbeblus via PM a while back but I just checked my Kino DVD and can confirm that Kino (or whoever Kino sourced the print from) just fucking cut out at least one long scene from the movie, presumably because it couldn't really be translated. After the two girls get picked up by the pair of boors at the beginning of the film and are told a lame dirty joke (involving what the typo on Kino's print claims is a "flying pan"), one of them goes on to tell a much longer convoluted dirty joke with a punchline that is not translatable into English because it depends of phonetic slant rhyming. There is of course a way around this without deciding you need to alter the film by removing the confusing passage: Do what the backchannels English subtitler did and just tell us so and then cordon off the "clues" in asterisks to clarify the liberties being taken / confusion inherent in an English translation

Image

This is an important scene in setting not only the prurient interests of the two men and their lack of boundaries, but also the distinction between how the two women receive the joke and giving us a clue as to the different ways in which a similar pliancy is reflected in the dissimilar responses of Clotilde Joano and Bernadette Lafont to this much longer interaction

This is of course just the nth example of why back channel resources are doing the real and important archival work that boutique labels just can't be bothered to do themselves when so many are focused on rereleasing movies that already have fine home video releases and/or absolute garbage

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#106 Post by domino harvey » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:41 pm

sinemadelisikiz wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:13 pm

Edit: I'm currently watching The Twist, and it's shockingly bad. Why is everything pitched to the same histrionic yet stilted level?
It doesn't get better

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#107 Post by sinemadelisikiz » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:18 am

Yea, I already bailed. I'm trying to get to everything on my watch list and it seemed like there are better uses of my precious time!

I've been hoping that Kino's renewed interest in 60s Chabrol would mean a blu is on the horizon, but I'm not holding my breath. At least I was finally able to see L'Œil du malin, which plays as an interesting contrast with Les biches, where class animosity (among other things) leads a character to mirror and attempt to inhabit the role of their "social betters", even if the conflicts finally boil over in very different ways. Actually, after filling in so many gaps in his oeuvre, I'm getting a fuller picture of how Chabrol distorts and remixes similar themes, like bourgeois hypocrisy, jealousy, etc. Almost any two films could play nicely as a double feature, but I haven't once felt like he was lazily repeating himself. So yea, this has been one of the more enjoyable viewing exercises I've done, even if I had to watch 20 mins of The Twist.

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#108 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:46 am

Kino Insider said they were considering whether to do an upgrade of Les bonnes femmes, so they still hold the rights at least. I imagine they're waiting to see what sales for Champagne Murders and L'oeil du malin look like first. Any source they get would surely be the same one put out on disc in France and not the hard-subbed American theatrical print they used for the DVD, so it would be complete (one assumes!)

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#109 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:58 am

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:41 pm
sinemadelisikiz wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:13 pm

Edit: I'm currently watching The Twist, and it's shockingly bad. Why is everything pitched to the same histrionic yet stilted level?
It doesn't get better
I watched Doctor Popaul with gritted teeth. Is anyone waving a flag for anything from the years of shame?

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#110 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:25 am

If anyone is voting for Docteur Popaul, I’m going to assuming they’re doing it for a sorority initiation. How awful is that out of nowhere shift in tone in the last ten minutes? Like, I hated it as a misogynistic sex comedy, but I loathed it as a moralistic twist ending thriller

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#111 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:50 am

BTW I found le fauteuil hanté delightful with impeccable performances all round and like yourself was gratified that Claude bowed out with something as classy as that rather than Une fille coupée en deux or Bellamy (for which I have a very mild soft spot enjoying Depardieu lumbering around like a wheezing beached whale) but I don't think Fauteuil will penetrate the defences of my top 20.

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#112 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:13 am

Ah well, the list doesn’t really matter anyways, it’s all an excuse to watch/rewatch/discuss some great and not so great films, so I’m glad you enjoyed it regardless. Speaking of performances, I love that Chabrol’s final film has the presence of a former Chabrol regular via Michel Duchaussoy‘s wonderful comic protagonist (well, one of them!) — I was stunned after to learn that though, as I hadn’t seen any of his modern work and didn’t recognize him

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#113 Post by knives » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:47 am

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:35 pm
I've got bad news: not only is that the only English-subbed commercial version available, it's truncated from the original French version by at least six minutes! I was discussing my suspicion of the differences with therewillbeblus via PM a while back but I just checked my Kino DVD and can confirm that Kino (or whoever Kino sourced the print from) just fucking cut out at least one long scene from the movie, presumably because it couldn't really be translated. After the two girls get picked up by the pair of boors at the beginning of the film and are told a lame dirty joke (involving what the typo on Kino's print claims is a "flying pan"), one of them goes on to tell a much longer convoluted dirty joke with a punchline that is not translatable into English because it depends of phonetic slant rhyming. There is of course a way around this without deciding you need to alter the film by removing the confusing passage: Do what the backchannels English subtitler did and just tell us so and then cordon off the "clues" in asterisks to clarify the liberties being taken / confusion inherent in an English translation

Image

This is an important scene in setting not only the prurient interests of the two men and their lack of boundaries, but also the distinction between how the two women receive the joke and giving us a clue as to the different ways in which a similar pliancy is reflected in the dissimilar responses of Clotilde Joano and Bernadette Lafont to this much longer interaction

This is of course just the nth example of why back channel resources are doing the real and important archival work that boutique labels just can't be bothered to do themselves when so many are focused on rereleasing movies that already have fine home video releases and/or absolute garbage
This is an examplar of why I wish more companies had a notes option for their subtitles. Animeigo used to have them and they were always useful for understanding linguistic and cultural oddities.

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#114 Post by DarkImbecile » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:57 am

domino harvey wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:13 am
Ah well, the list doesn’t really matter anyways
Image

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#115 Post by swo17 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:23 am

He's right

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#116 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:17 pm

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:58 am
I watched Doctor Popaul with gritted teeth. Is anyone waving a flag for anything from the years of shame?
If by the years of shame, do you mean between Juste avant la nuit in '71 and Violette Noziere in '78 (or even up until Masques in '87)?

Nada will definitely make my list, and probably Les Innocents aux mains sales.

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#117 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:08 am

therewillbeblus wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:17 pm
NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:58 am
I watched Doctor Popaul with gritted teeth. Is anyone waving a flag for anything from the years of shame?
If by the years of shame, do you mean between Juste avant la nuit in '71 and Violette Noziere in '78 (or even up until Masques in '87)?
The years of shame was a term used by Chabrol himself (I'll try and find the quote somewhere) for the period after the dwindling box office returns of the three films after Bonnes Femmes culminating in Ophélia and his fall from grace with Cahier du Cinéma. He regained critical credibility with Les Biches which launched his "période pompidolienne' dissecting the bourgeoisie during the Pompidou era. It isn't strictly a delineation by date however since there are a few incidences viz Popaul that fit the bill
Overwhelmingly it seems that his involvement with dubious producers are more often than not the extenuating circumstances. As he himself said "I am a pretty good director if I'm left to my own devices"

Re Bonnes femmes apparently there was a total of 20 minutes cut not just the 6 minute lascivious riddle in the car journey scene Dom alluded to. This was re-instated in 2000 but I don't know how that might relate to the Kino cut as I have the Studio Canal. Is there Jane's ducking out of sex because of menstruating in that?
Re the translation of that scene in the car. Isn't that the job of a translator to find the right equivalent of the dialogue even if it is not literal? Would they have left it out of a book ? Sorry Rimbaud but your metaphor doesn't make sense in English!

If Kino have serious designs on a re-issue they would do well to involve Matthew Wiener the creator of Mad Men who is obsessed with the film and made it compulsory viewing for his co- workers
And yes it will be figuring in the upper echelons of my list .

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#118 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:26 pm

knives wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:47 am
domino harvey wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:35 pm
I've got bad news: not only is that the only English-subbed commercial version available, it's truncated from the original French version by at least six minutes! I was discussing my suspicion of the differences with therewillbeblus via PM a while back but I just checked my Kino DVD and can confirm that Kino (or whoever Kino sourced the print from) just fucking cut out at least one long scene from the movie, presumably because it couldn't really be translated. After the two girls get picked up by the pair of boors at the beginning of the film and are told a lame dirty joke (involving what the typo on Kino's print claims is a "flying pan"), one of them goes on to tell a much longer convoluted dirty joke with a punchline that is not translatable into English because it depends of phonetic slant rhyming. There is of course a way around this without deciding you need to alter the film by removing the confusing passage: Do what the backchannels English subtitler did and just tell us so and then cordon off the "clues" in asterisks to clarify the liberties being taken / confusion inherent in an English translation

Image

This is an important scene in setting not only the prurient interests of the two men and their lack of boundaries, but also the distinction between how the two women receive the joke and giving us a clue as to the different ways in which a similar pliancy is reflected in the dissimilar responses of Clotilde Joano and Bernadette Lafont to this much longer interaction

This is of course just the nth example of why back channel resources are doing the real and important archival work that boutique labels just can't be bothered to do themselves when so many are focused on rereleasing movies that already have fine home video releases and/or absolute garbage
This is an examplar of why I wish more companies had a notes option for their subtitles. Animeigo used to have them and they were always useful for understanding linguistic and cultural oddities.
If anyone is interested in the missing scene here's the dialogue :-

Older man driving the car tells the girls he has a riddle for them to solve -

Mon premier est un oiseau.
my first is a bird

Mon second est un conseil que donnait Alexandre Dumas à son père pour l'inciter à montrer l'heure à ses domestiques à travers le trou de la serrure.
My second is a tip given by Alexandre Dumas to his father encouraging him to show what the time is to his servants through a keyhole.

Mon tout est un cri de désespoir que l'on pousse quand on a perdu un objet précieux aux environs de Paris.
All of this makes a cry of despair when you have lost a precious object near Paris

Answer
J'AI PERDU MA MONTRE A NOGENT-LE-ROTROU!

I lost my watch in Nogent -le Rotrou

Which consists of
Mon premier est un oiseau. -GEAI. The bird is a Jay

Mon second est un conseil que donnait Alexandre Dumas à son père pour l'inciter à montrer l'heure à ses domestiques à travers le trou de la serrure. -PERE DUMAS, MONTRE A NOS GENS L'HEURE AU TROU. Literally Dumas senior shows our people the time through the hole .

They elucidate this by mimicking lewdly spying through a keyhole.
NB I am unaware of any innuendo inherently in the expression "to show the time to" other than their mimed visual interpretation.

This is followed by the younger man cracking a joke asking the girls what's the difference between a frying pan and a chamber pot. When they say they don't know he says something along the lines of he won't be eating round their place.

I have no info as to the other 14 mins cut initially in addition to these 6 mins that might influence either the Kino or other earlier versions.

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#119 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:25 pm

Thanks for the translation Nabob! And if there are another 14 minutes out there that could possibly make this film better like those 6 do, I’ll sign up for whatever Kickstarter I need to for them to see the light of day. If only it were that simple...

Ah yes those years of shame. I’ve read the self-declared quote too somewhere and thought you were referring to an informal declaration of the longer period where Chabrol’s output was largely inconsistent tipping in favor of mediocre. For those years of shame (‘64-‘68) I won’t be waving any flags though I think most of what I’ve seen is worth checking out. The Le Tigre films are wild and fun, while La Ligne de d'marcation is an incredibly competent film that would probably have impressed me more had I not been in the midst of a binge on Chabrol’s better works of the 60s. It’s worth seeing to say the least and if more accessible will likely attract a lot more followers than it currently has.

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#120 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:33 am

therewillbeblus wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:25 pm
And if there are another 14 minutes out there that could possibly make this film better like those 6 do
Just to be clear, the 20 minutes previously cut were re-instated in 2000. I was picking up on Domino's point about the Kino edit and wondering what else might be missing. However I see that the 2000 US Kino edition is 100 mins long whilst when it re-appears in the Kino Lorber Fine Films box set 8 years later it has been truncated by 6 mins so I guess it depends which version you get. Dom, If you have seen this backstair re-edit how long does that run?

Also has anyone seen this on Amazon-
Les Bonnes Femmes (1960) – A Claude Chabrol Film from French Cinema: A French Movie Classic with Full Story, Selected Dialogs and Critical Annotation
Kindle Edition
by Adam Good Yazar (Author)
Is it just another Wikipedia mash-up?

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#121 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:41 am

The Kino edition is for sure approx 92 minutes long (NTSC), I checked when I dug out my disc. The same disc appears in the box and singly, the 100 minute figure on the packaging was just typical old school Kino sloppiness. The back channel version is DVD sourced, presumably from the same French DVD you have-- 98 minutes in PAL (25fps). I may have described this as an extended cut, but it apparently is a commercially available one, just not in an English-friendly release

While we're on the topic, the "integral" version of A double tour is sourced from the DVD and the Japanese Blu-ray, and you can tell which is which because the color timing shifts and slight differences in framing. There are thirteen alternate scenes/cut total and the new running time is 98 minutes in PAL (about five minutes longer than the existing DVD and ten minutes longer than the Japanese Blu-ray-- each has alternate elisions and additions in parts)

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#122 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:29 pm

Time for the usual fear-mongering: lists are due “tomorrow” (really Thursday morning), and so far I’ve received four lists, most from those already doing the most posting in this thread. Grim outlook of getting to at least ten lists from my perspective, but hopefully things take a brighter turn

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#123 Post by knives » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:41 pm

And remember if you've seen ten films and don't submit a list a mad woman will kill you via shooting a picture after discussing the flaws of the petite Bourgeoisie.

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#124 Post by domino harvey » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:59 am

A squeaker this time, but we did it. Submissions closed. Results eventually

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Re: Auteur List: Claude Chabrol - Discussion and Defenses

#125 Post by knives » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:47 am

Yay. We won't have to cut a forum in two.

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