Fritz Lang

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Orlac
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Re: Fritz Lang

#76 Post by Orlac » Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:19 am

colinr0380 wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:41 am
My favourite use of Metropolis in film is when the robot sequence turns up on the couple's TV on movie night at the beginning of Shinya Tsukamoto's Tokyo Fist as a shorthand for the flawed notion of the idealised, created woman that the film will go on to explore.
I like to think the final shot of Peter Cushing in Star Wars is a reference to a shot of Joh Fredersen in Metropolis just before the city breaks down.

The same year's Doctor Who story The Sunmakers (which is mostly a rant against the Inland Revenue filmed in a tobacco factory) has a few references to Metropolis. There's a funny anecdote that director Pennant Roberts directed the extras to look suitably downtrodden by advising them to observe the real factory workers!

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colinr0380
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Re: Fritz Lang

#77 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:20 pm

I had not made that Peter Cushing pensive look in Star Wars connection before to the patriarch looking out of his window as everything goes dark in Metropolis, but that's a great connection!
domino harvey wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:48 pm
This week’s In Our Time episode is about Lang. Had to laugh at Bragg trying to initially set up an emphasis on Metropolis and all the Lang experts pivoting to M instead (as you’d expect). Good discussions mainly of those two, the Big Heat, Fury, the first Mabuse, Hangmen Also Die, and an ending debate on Beyond a Reasonable Doubt’s merits
I have finally managed to listen to this episode now and it was very interesting. Beyond Bragg's introduction and getting one of the guests to describe the plot (which doesn't happen with any of the other films!), Metropolis does not get too much focus beyond a listing of all of its themes ("fairy tale, Biblical, sci-fi...it was just too much movie for audiences") and that along with Murnau's Faust its box office failure brought UFA to its knees. I liked the discussion of M, although I could have done without all the comments on how plump and fat, and therefore unassuming and overlooked in his apparent sweaty pudginess (especially in his hands) that Peter Lorre was, though that did lead to the really nice pointing up of Lorre's bare wringing hands as he wrestles with his overwhelming urges contrasted with the gang leader's leather clad and often pointing (when not splayed out over maps of the city of Berlin) hands that suggests a more conscious and premeditated and coordinated horror. For all of the emphasis on the first shot on the shadow across the missing child poster as the unseen killer picks up another victim, I also would have liked the moment in the film when after the first half hour Lorre finally appears on screen making faces in the mirror before they become a frozen rictus of madness as the playacting becomes too revealing even to the man himself to have been discussed at least once!

It was interesting to hear one of the guests spending a bit of time talking about Hangmen Also Die, mostly relating the behind the scenes troubles with Bertolt Brecht's clashes with Lang over the script than anything too thematic. I did think they missed a trick in not equating the obvious 'fakeness' of the themes here to the later discussion of the 'flaws' in Beyond A Reasonable Doubt as something that might have been a conscious approach rather than a terrible flaw in Lang's filmmaking skills (I would say it is less 'fakeness' but more a healthy dose of cynicism!), although two separate guests talked about each of those issues separately so maybe the correlation did not get made because of that.

In terms of other German émigré filmmakers at the time who were not mentioned in the discussion, I wondered if Robert Siodmak and Edgar G. Ulmer would have been good contrasting comparisons?

I was particularly interested in the final section on the legacy of Lang on other filmmakers that came afterwards. Michael Mann was an interesting name thrown out there, although I wonder if he may have been more influenced by other more romantic German Expressionist filmmakers such as Murnau or Pabst rather than the rather precise and austere Lang? David Fincher was an interesting figure to compare Lang too, although not just in the interest in crime stories but also in the sheer preciseness of construction of shots and camera movements. Which itself reminded me of that Claude Chabrol 'remake' of a scene of M on the Criterion disc where in his introduction to it Chabrol talked of how he realised that it was impossible to re-do the scene of the killer being marked and chased without having to precisely follow the timing of camera movements in certain shots in order to achieve the intended psychological effect.

Regarding the Hitchcock versus Lang contrasts that get brought up, just as important as talking about filmmakers it might have also been worth noting those two Michael Douglas starring remakes that came out in recent years that might make for an interesting compare and contrast experience in themselves (throw in David Fincher's The Game whilst we are at it!): the remake of Dial M For Murder in 1998's A Perfect Murder; and the remake of Beyond A Reasonable Doubt in 2009! (And whilst on Beyond A Reasonable Doubt, I wonder if it had any influence at all on Sam Fuller's Shock Corridor?)

Whilst it was nice to have a lot of focus on Dr Mabuse, The Gambler I was rather surprised that there was no mention at all of Testament of Dr Mabuse or The 1,000 Eyes of Dr Mabuse charting a kind of through-line in Lang's career (let alone Chabrol's own tribute to the Mabuse canon with 1990's Dr M!). Beyond Metropolis those were the bigger omissions of the discussion. None of the post-Hollywood German films get mentioned at all. Also it was rather surprising that While The City Sleeps was not brought up at all, as that feels like a particularly interesting American companion piece to M, just with the criminal mob replaced with similarly hard-nosed newspapermen!

And whilst his work is often talked of as indebted to Bertolucci, Dreyer and Tarkovsky, I could not help but think whilst listening that it might be just as fruitful to think of Lars von Trier's first feature The Element of Crime through a Lang-ian lens! After all it is about a naive idealist pursuing a serial child murderer who inevitably finds out that his whole methodology of investigation inherited from his revered mentor is flawed (or more correctly, was rather too close to home!) and expands out from just being about a specific crime into implicating an entire European society! And in a Mabuse-touch it is all told by the main character under hypnosis which adds another layer of unreliability to the events being played out!
Last edited by colinr0380 on Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

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diamonds
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Re: Fritz Lang

#78 Post by diamonds » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:10 pm

colinr0380 wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:20 pm
Michael Mann was an interesting name thrown out there, although I wonder if he may have been more influenced by other more romantic German Expressionist filmmakers such as Murnau or Pabst rather than the rather precise and austere Lang?
Mann's appreciation of The Big Heat (viewable on the Indicator disc) is actually a pretty great interview. Covers a lot of bases in a short amount of time, and he's very enthusiastic about the film and Lang, whom he calls "a great master"!

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Sloper
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Re: Fritz Lang

#79 Post by Sloper » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:33 am

Orlac wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:17 am
I saw the Moroder version when I was 10, and well, I've been a Bonnie Tyler fan ever since.

Just as well, as the only alternative on UK VHS in the 90s was Eureka's terrible "139min director's cut" - in other words a heavily cut print played in super-slow-motion with a soundtrack seemingly comprised of elevator music.
That 139-minute Metropolis was my first ever experience of silent film, and it was indeed a nightmare – I still remember the exact running time because I was counting every one of those minutes. I’m pretty sure the music and the slow frame-rate had me screaming out loud by the end.

I then had a similarly bad first experience with a horrible edition of Nosferatu, but eventually saw the light with the Shostakovich-scored Battleship Potemkin. (And this definitely speaks to Never Cursed’s comment above about misguided expectations regarding the accessibility of ‘genre’ films!)

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swo17
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Re: Fritz Lang

#80 Post by swo17 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:18 am

Everyone's first silent film should be Sherlock Jr.

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Maltic
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Re: Fritz Lang

#81 Post by Maltic » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:45 am

On Danish TV when I was a kid, they would sometimes show Laurel and Hardy shorts and various Chaplin (I don't recall any Keaton).

I suppose Metropolis was indeed the first silent film I sought out myself, later on, when I had seen Dark City, Blade Runner, other stuff that referred to it in some way.

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dustybooks
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Re: Fritz Lang

#82 Post by dustybooks » Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:18 pm

My first silent was Fred Niblo's The Mark of Zorro with Douglas Fairbanks, rented from a combination video store, antique shop and mattress outlet in Oak Island, NC around 1991 by my dad, thinking it was the Disney TV show which I liked a lot. I remember quickly accepting the novelty and enjoying it well enough, but that's about it.

I did catch up with Metropolis in high school after reading about it a lot thanks to my interest in Hitchcock (and Madonna/David Fincher, I guess!?). It made a big impression from the sheer power of its imagery and continues to do so. I understand the criticisms and it's not close to being my favorite silent film (though it was for a long time) or my favorite Lang, but I do feel it's a genuine masterpiece and I'm always impressed when I revisit it.

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schellenbergk
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Re: Fritz Lang

#83 Post by schellenbergk » Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:29 pm

FrauBlucher wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:14 pm
I prefer Die Nibelungen over Metropolis. I do enjoy Metropolis but I definitely put it behind most of his German output
I agree on Die Nibelungen - especially the first half ("Siegfried"). It's especially fascinating if you've seen Wagner's Ring cycle recently. I also admire the first "Dr. Mabuse" film(s).

But we part ways on Metropolis - I think it's near the top of his German films. (I winced at comments from people who saw the Moroder version when they were "kids" - I had already owned an 8mm copy for a decade by the time the disco version came out.) I've seen it countless times. A great film IMO - it really holds up to repeated viewings.

Some of the early German films I find hard to watch - for example "Destiny" and "The Spiders" and "Harakiri" are just not very good films IMO.

But I have to say - I'm not really a huge fan of Lang's output overall. The American films are very spotty in quality. "Fury" is well-done but based on a strange premise - the lynching of a white man. "The Big Heat" was very good - and the other American films have their moments (offhand "House By The River" is a very good).

The late German films are also not to my taste - I was disappointed in both "The 1000 Eyes" and the "Indian Epic" - the restoration of the latter was beautiful, but the film offered nothing for the brain. It was eye candy.

So all-in-all I have mixed feelings about Lang as a director. He made a few excellent films, several very good films, and several mediocre ones.

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Maltic
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Re: Fritz Lang

#84 Post by Maltic » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:13 pm

schellenbergk wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:29 pm
But I have to say - I'm not really a huge fan of Lang's output overall. The American films are very spotty in quality. "Fury" is well-done but based on a strange premise - the lynching of a white man.
Maybe not so strange when the same director had made M a few years earlier.

You do see it in other films too, of course. Certain Westerns, fx.

Obviously, in the mid-1930s, he couldn't have made it with a black man in the Spencer role.

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FrauBlucher
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Fritz Lang

#85 Post by FrauBlucher » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:34 pm

The Ox-Bow Incident

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schellenbergk
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Re: Fritz Lang

#86 Post by schellenbergk » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:38 pm

Maltic wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:13 pm
schellenbergk wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:29 pm
But I have to say - I'm not really a huge fan of Lang's output overall. The American films are very spotty in quality. "Fury" is well-done but based on a strange premise - the lynching of a white man.
Maybe not so strange when the same director had made M a few years earlier.

You do see it in other films too, of course. Certain Westerns, fx.

Obviously, in the mid-1930s, he couldn't have made it with a black man in the Spencer role.
How could I have overlooked M? Fantastic film.

I understood why he couldn’t feature a black man in Fury, but that doesn’t make the film any less odd. I’m not sure I see the connection between Fury and M - could you explain a bit more?

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schellenbergk
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Re: Fritz Lang

#87 Post by schellenbergk » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:54 pm

FrauBlucher wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:34 pm
The Ox-Bow Incident
I don’t think Fritz Lang directed that.

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Maltic
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Re: Fritz Lang

#88 Post by Maltic » Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:24 pm

schellenbergk wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:38 pm

How could I have overlooked M? Fantastic film.

I understood why he couldn’t feature a black man in Fury, but that doesn’t make the film any less odd. I’m not sure I see the connection between Fury and M - could you explain a bit more?
Should be obvious, no? They both deal with mob justice

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schellenbergk
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Re: Fritz Lang

#89 Post by schellenbergk » Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:32 pm

Maltic wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:24 pm
schellenbergk wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:38 pm

How could I have overlooked M? Fantastic film.

I understood why he couldn’t feature a black man in Fury, but that doesn’t make the film any less odd. I’m not sure I see the connection between Fury and M - could you explain a bit more?
Should be obvious, no? They both deal with mob justice
Do they? "Fury" certainly does - but I think that's a weird way to describe "M". Is "M" really about "a mob" exacting justice? I don't agree with that assessment. It's better described as how the criminal gang and the police have a unified interest in catching the child molester - the similarities between the two groups.

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senseabove
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Re: Fritz Lang

#90 Post by senseabove » Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:41 pm

It is about a gang of civilians hunting and capturing a man, then arguing as a group about how to punish him—and quite literally imitating a court of law outside a court of law by appointing him a "defense lawyer"—potentially up to murdering him. I see your point about the similarities being a major point, but it's also an almost literal depiction of "mob justice."

And no, Lang didn't direct Ox-Bow, Wellman did, but it's another film where a white man is under threat of being lynched by a mob.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: Fritz Lang

#91 Post by FrauBlucher » Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:49 pm

schellenbergk wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:54 pm
FrauBlucher wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:34 pm
The Ox-Bow Incident
I don’t think Fritz Lang directed that.
I didn't suggest that :roll: . The example was a white man was hanged from this 1943 film.

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schellenbergk
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Re: Fritz Lang

#92 Post by schellenbergk » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:03 pm

senseabove wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:41 pm
It is about a gang of civilians hunting and capturing a man, then arguing as a group about how to punish him—and quite literally imitating a court of law outside a court of law by appointing him a "defense lawyer"—potentially up to murdering him. I see your point about the similarities being a major point, but it's also an almost literal depiction of "mob justice."

And no, Lang didn't direct Ox-Bow, Wellman did, but it's another film where a white man is under threat of being lynched by a mob.
But the “court” is comprised entirely of the criminal mob, right?

Also – a major difference – in fury the lynching is of an innocent man.

I think it’s important to go back to what Lang intended. In fury unlike M, Lang explicitly was inspired to make the film by the lynching of a black man. According to interviews he gave later in life. (This begs the question of whether he is a reliable witness to his own career. But assume he’s telling the truth in this case.) That is not true of M.

I have never seen Oxbow Incident though I did read the book a half a century ago. How does it relate, besides the superficial plot point of having a lynch mob? Was it inspired by the lynching of a black man? My memory of it is fuzzy but I doubt it.

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swo17
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Re: Fritz Lang

#93 Post by swo17 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:12 pm

The entire film of Ox-bow Incident is about the culmination of and repercussions following an act of mob "justice"

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schellenbergk
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Re: Fritz Lang

#94 Post by schellenbergk » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:16 pm

swo17 wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:12 pm
The entire film of Ox-bow Incident is about the culmination of and repercussions following an act of mob "justice"
Ok. So?

That’s not what Fritz Lang himself said “Fury” was about.

There’s an excellent volume of interviews with him. Check it out.

https://www.amazon.com/Fritz-Lang-Inter ... 1578065771

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DarkImbecile
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Re: Fritz Lang

#95 Post by DarkImbecile » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:19 pm

What is the point you are trying to defend here exactly? That it’s odd to have done a film depicting a white man being lynched?

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swo17
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Re: Fritz Lang

#96 Post by swo17 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:21 pm

You asked a question about the Wellman film, which I took to suggest that the lynching might be a minor plot point. I responded to that question. In hindsight I think I misunderstood you

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senseabove
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Re: Fritz Lang

#97 Post by senseabove » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:27 pm

schellenbergk wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:03 pm
But the “court” is comprised entirely of the criminal mob, right?

Also – a major difference – in fury the lynching is of an innocent man.

I think it’s important to go back to what Lang intended. In fury unlike M, Lang explicitly was inspired to make the film by the lynching of a black man. According to interviews he gave later in life. (This begs the question of whether he is a reliable witness to his own career. But assume he’s telling the truth in this case.) That is not true of M.

I have never seen Oxbow Incident though I did read the book a half a century ago. How does it relate, besides the superficial plot point of having a lynch mob? Was it inspired by the lynching of a black man? My memory of it is fuzzy but I doubt it.
I don't see a huge difference in principle between a gang of criminals murdering a man we know is guilty but—importantly—they do not, a gang of cowboys lynching a man whose guilt or innocence is entirely unknown to all, and a gang of townies lynching a man we do know is innocent: there are different overtones to all three situations, of course, but all three films are pretty explicitly exploring the assumed authority of people who do not have the legal or moral authority to mete out justice in their society. If anything, M is being wry about the fact that the criminals are recreating the same structure that would undoubtedly convict them on other charges, which creates even more friction between the mob's kangaroo court and the official legal structures also pursuing the child-killer. I confess I'm at a loss as to how one story being directly inspired by a newspaper report of a black man being lynched invalidates comparisons to the others.

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schellenbergk
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Re: Fritz Lang

#98 Post by schellenbergk » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:31 pm

DarkImbecile wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:19 pm
What is the point you are trying to defend here exactly? That it’s odd to have done a film depicting a white man being lynched?
Yes - because at the time there was an epidemic of black men being lynched. The filmmaker himself was moved to make the film based on a specific lynching of a black man but he was not allowed to cast a black man in the role of innocent victim.

The film is odd because we are forced to see Henry Fonda in a part that should have gone to lets say Paul Robeson.

This is a far cry from other films “M” & “Ox”

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senseabove
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Re: Fritz Lang

#99 Post by senseabove » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:42 pm

Except that as the examples provided have shown, there were other films depicting white men under threat of mob justice, including one by the very same director, which you apparently think are disqualified from comparison due to entirely extratextual reasons?

Is there an earlier sympathetic depiction in the Code era of a black man threatened with lynching than 1949's Intruder in the Dust?

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swo17
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Re: Fritz Lang

#100 Post by swo17 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:53 pm

Fonda starred in Ox. It was Spencer Tracy in Fury. Understandable though how you could confuse the two

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