Woody Allen

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therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Woody Allen

#751 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun May 17, 2020 6:29 pm

AWA wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 6:03 pm
therewillbeblus wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:54 am
Great exchange. I’ve been banging this drum (sometimes exhaustively) here on this forum for a while, but modern therapies (specifically subjective, client-centered ones) like Motivational Interviewing live by the mantra that change is hard for all people; in many instances the most challenging thing we can do. Sometimes we can will ourselves to change, but as mostly emotional beings, who operate in cognitive spaces (and that includes folks who test logic-heavy on Meyers Briggs, etc) we continue to make choices and take actions (including non-actions, often) that feed into fear, doubt, insecurity, anxieties.

Woody is an anxious person so that can contribute, but just generally many (most, all?) people have to suppress some realities in order to cope with their situations. I’ve stayed in way too many jobs and relationships that were just plain not healthy or safe due to the complex psychological processes that need to occur to move someone into sustained awareness of the need to change. Change disrupts one’s predictability, the rooted dynamics of roles, relationships, and other systems. Since people have finite will power, when in certain intense situations they wind up using up all of their energy just keeping their heads above water.

It’s a really fascinating phenomenon, and while I reject reading this truth as a cop-out into complacency, or an excuse into not taking responsibility, on the other hand it’s scientifically proven that people cannot independently pull themselves up by their emotional bootstraps to issue change left and right effortlessly like a superhero. Even making the step from the unaware pre-contemplation stage into the aware contemplation stage in Prochaska‘s stages of change model, let alone maintaining or progressing, is a feat. And of course, like all psychological theories that give attention to the emotional sides of us, it’s not a linear process (for example, how many times have I maintained independence from a toxic relationship only to revert back and suppress my awareness of this as a problem; or how many times have I quit smoking only to revert back to the behavior and forget the reasons why I stopped- if we had to cope on a constant basis with pulsing awareness of our unhealthy choices, we’d go insane- so in a sense the parts of our brain that defend against this constant self-flagellation are helping us too, while also stunting that capacity for change. It’s a grey system.)
Very interesting comments, thank you taking the time to share that. I would love to know more about that as it has been a burden I've have to wrestle with my whole life. When relationships are ending, I know they are - I can read all the signs, I know this is no longer healthy, this is getting worse, I need to get away from this person, etc - but I can't bring myself to make the break. As a result I linger too long in something that ended before and it has become toxic to both of us and I try to find ways to correct what can't be corrected before I finally leave (or am left, which hurts more).
My framework on comprehending this outside of therapeutic modalities (you could pick up the Motivational Interviewing book) is based on my specialization in addiction (which was the basis for a lot of these subjective therapies on change). This video is something I send to people struggling with change all the time (it’s long but the meat is really from like minute 16 or so to 43, or something along those lines). Even though it uses addiction and AA as the basis, it’s generalizable to the idea of finite will power and explains why we can’t individually pull ourselves up or sustain change without proper supports, using psychology and research. There are naturally other handicaps (the enigmatic disease element, mental health, etc.) but this video refrains from those specifications which help make this universally applicable.

No exaggeration: this video changed my life as far as how I view what our capabilities are and what we need to be successful. Most importantly I think it helps us understand the “why” you mention to halt us from shaming ourselves, yet doesn’t diffuse responsibility either, and provides tools and blueprints for empowerment. Anyways, check it out.

Nasir007
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Woody Allen

#752 Post by Nasir007 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:02 pm

So, I was going to post yesterday in this thread that - Wow! A defense of Woody from an unusual quarter.

Scatch that.

These days, basically anytime someone makes a quarter-provocative opinion or even slightly toes the line, don't discuss it seriously because you know the inevitable walk back and apology are coming.

And so we roll. No succor for Woody, everything is as it was before.

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The Pachyderminator
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:24 pm

Re: Woody Allen

#753 Post by The Pachyderminator » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:10 am

I'm not quite sure why he felt he needed to walk that back. It's not like Spike Lee normally bends over backwards to avoid offending Hollywood's gatekeepers...

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swo17
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Re: Woody Allen

#754 Post by swo17 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:17 am

It's unfortunate this is being characterized as Lee changing his stance on Allen when it doesn't really have anything to do with him. His original comment was along the lines of "Cancel culture is really hard on people who get accused, like my buddy Woody Allen" and his apology was just acknowledging that focusing on how the accused suffer is insensitive to victims, and that he could have chosen his words better

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therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Woody Allen

#755 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:01 am

I agree, though Lee could have clarified the context of his second remark, which does read like he's validating the claims on Allen in responding to the post rather than validating the attention going to sexual assault survivors instead. You're right though, each comment is so clearly divorced from that specific case that drawing a link is spinning one's own narrative. Unfortunately, unless Lee clarifies that remark, it's going to be the narrative.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: Woody Allen

#756 Post by FrauBlucher » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:38 pm

The problem with our current climate is people have to be on guard every waking moment on what they say and how they say it, and that's impossible.

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therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Woody Allen

#757 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:49 pm

Right, I just wish Spike Lee, who is calling Woody Allen his friend, would clarify his last comment because he is a very public social justice advocate beyond black rights who refuses to hold his tongue- and even just saying that his comments are divorced from Allen specifically would be helpful in not perpetuating additional smearing.

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swo17
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Re: Woody Allen

#758 Post by swo17 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:51 pm

I can see the headlines now..."Spike Lee Apologizes for Apologizing to Rape Victims"

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therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Woody Allen

#759 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:03 pm

swo17 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:51 pm
I can see the headlines now..."Spike Lee Apologizes for Apologizing to Rape Victims"
I know.. it's a lose-lose situation.

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Dr Amicus
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Re: Woody Allen

#760 Post by Dr Amicus » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:06 am

Does anybody know anything about the quality of this set, currently £25 on Amazon?

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Woody Allen

#761 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:18 am

I finally started Apropos of Nothing and I was laughing so hard after just a few pages that I had to take a break. It's been a while since I've read Allen's non-screenplay writing, but I forgot how effortlessly he fits humor into such serious subjects. Lines talking about death and his parents' poor health, real fears of his, are juxtaposed with piercing semantics that undo rigid meaning to open up everything for a gag. His prose is arguably even better than his scripts, though when you're this good, it's all heaven. I feel like I need to go back and reread his short stories and essays, since I haven't read The Insanity Defense, or any of the other books by him that I still have on my shelf, since childhood.

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domino harvey
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Re: Woody Allen

#762 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:20 am

I took a college class that assigned both Allen and Lorrie Moore texts for close study. It was a The Good Lord Giveth, The Good Lord Taketh Away situation

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NABOB OF NOWHERE
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Re: Woody Allen

#763 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:27 am

therewillbeblus wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:18 am
I finally started Apropos of Nothing and I was laughing so hard after just a few pages that I had to take a break. It's been a while since I've read Allen's non-screenplay writing, but I forgot how effortlessly he fits humor into such serious subjects.
This is definitely for you then....
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stand-Up-Years ... sic&sr=1-2

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domino harvey
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Re: Woody Allen

#764 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm

“The Moose” is classic. Also, this quip from a different bit is one of the great Allen one-liners
SpoilerShow
Upon being told his wife had been arrested: “Knowing her, it wasn’t a moving violation”

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Woody Allen

#765 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:05 pm

Yep, we had those on cassette when I was growing up- listened to his standup in my parents' bedroom many a night. I've mentioned it before, but I was raised on Woody Allen by my mom (and Jackie Chan by my dad) and had seen most of each's films by the time I was done with middle school. One of the things I'm most grateful for is how they helped facilitate my exposure to art, since Allen undoubtedly shaped my sense of humor- as well as my stance on separating art and people (since my mom grappled with the Soon-Yi marriage throughout my childhood and struggled to separate her normative beliefs from her love of his comedy, with the latter consistently winning out amidst the inner conflict).

The "moose" punchline is one of his best

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knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Woody Allen

#766 Post by knives » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:11 pm

Moose is definitely great. Fortunately a lot of these have been posted on YouTube and I've been slowly going through them. His sense of delivery including the physical component is genuinely impressive. It's obvious how he became a big star.

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therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Woody Allen

#767 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:29 pm

Having just finished the Hawks bio, it was cool to read that Feldman was busy helping to launch Allens' career into films just before he died. A strange but delightful commonality in ally with an eye and passion for talent.

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Never Cursed
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Re: Woody Allen

#768 Post by Never Cursed » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:27 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:20 am
I took a college class that assigned both Allen and Lorrie Moore texts for close study. It was a The Good Lord Giveth, The Good Lord Taketh Away situation
Didn't know exactly what this meant re: Lorrie Moore, but a recent excerpt from a piece wherein Moore appears to collectively declare millennials the Antichrist has cleared up a lot.

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domino harvey
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Re: Woody Allen

#769 Post by domino harvey » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:33 pm

Remember that embarrassing Lena Dunham second-person essay for the Big Chill? That’s the Lorrie Moore book we had to read

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Woody Allen

#770 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:41 pm

Never Cursed wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:27 pm
domino harvey wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:20 am
I took a college class that assigned both Allen and Lorrie Moore texts for close study. It was a The Good Lord Giveth, The Good Lord Taketh Away situation
Didn't know exactly what this meant re: Lorrie Moore, but a recent excerpt from a piece wherein Moore appears to collectively declare millennials the Antichrist has cleared up a lot.
The funniest part is, "Due to smartphones millennials are essentially suburban, no matter where they have actually grown up," though the end where she supposes the source of suicidal ideation and self-harm, as not only fact but as a very specific cause-and-effect scenario, crosses the line. Indicating that Boomers never resorted to cutting as a blanket concrete behavior of mental health issues because they're better and stronger is pretty disgusting in its resentful shaming.

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