Luchino Visconti

[Don Lope de Aguirre]

I just might take the CEO of Infinity "Art"house into a field and shoot him.

My sentiments exactly!! 8-)

What's the point?? Get great titles and then screw them up....
Seriously, though, surely rare titles must be relatively price inelastic. Surely it's worth doing a decent transfer and charging a but more?
Or getting rid of useless filler/extras and spending more money on a decent transfer!

I tried to find contact info for Infinitely Atrocious on the net but I couldn't...the guy's probably hiding in a bunker somewhere!
If Second Run can manage it...

**retraction**
Actually, the extras look very tasty!
I'm a big fan of Suso Cecchi D'Amico... but still my point stands! Transfer is everything... 8-)

[John Cope]

There's no way I can believe that this film would get a 4:3 release. I mean, why for God's sake?

[Barmy]

I have a great idea for an extra: the other half of the image.

[Gordon]

Ludwig artwork

Also listed as 4:3. A shame that the German dub, which the German from Arthaus has, is not present. Any ideas what "The perfume of a primrose" is?

The documentary is Carlos Lizzani's 1999 Luchino Visconti, which has been released seperately in region 1 by Image Entertainment. Very interesting, but I'd like to see the BBC's 2002, Visconti, where Helmut Berger comes across as a grade-A bitter and twisted buffoon. A more fitting companion to Ludwig, no?

[Don Lope de Aguirre]

The BBC doc would be a great companion if Ludwig is trashy a la The Damned, say...

I have never seen Ludwig and would love to see it properly, i.e. vaguely akin to how it's meant to look, not 4:3.

I have a suspicion that Visconti disappeared up his own back passage after The Leopard. I have only seen the Damned and (the horrifically middle bow and pederastic) Death in Venice... Is Ludwig an improvement on these?

[ellipsis7]

I haven't seen it, but Tony Rayns says this in Time Out...

Ludwig

Interested only in Ludwig of Bavaria as a neurotic individual, Visconti centres everything on the king's fears, sublimations and fantasies. He therefore produces a loving, uncritical portrait of a mad homosexual recluse, whose passions are opera, fairy-tale castles, and exquisite young men. Nothing is more sumptuous than Helmut Berger's performance in the lead, the brooding mad scenes, the deliberately contrived hysterical outbursts, and it takes only a flicker of scepticism to find the whole charade risible. But suspension of disbelief has its own rewards: Visconti's connoisseurship of historical detail and manners is as acute as ever, and his commitment to his subject is total. The film was originally released in cut versions ranging between 186 and 137 minutes; this uncut one, obviously more coherent, simply doubles the interest/boredom rate.

[Lino]

And someone by now must have a translation of that dubbed-in Polish dialogue between Sylvana and the kid about "the pathetic old queen."

I don't know about the R1 disc, but the R2 that I own, translates the dialogue. And stop bitching about Death in Venice! It's probably my favorite Visconti alongside Ludwig. Honestly. Should I take cover now while waiting for your indignated post that is sure to follow?

Oh, and if you want I could check the disc later on to tell you what they do say in polish. But as I recall, it's got nothing to do with Bogarde's character.

[Don Lope de Aguirre]

Well, I'm glad I made someone happy! Put together the discerning Rayns and the less discerning Ebert.

it looks as if minus the obvious appeal of eye candy this one's a bit boring...combined with the crappy DVD specs it looks like I'll be giving this one a miss!

[Lino]

Oh Annie -- dont be cross.

I'm not, don't worry. I love that film to bits no matter what. And you should also see Ludwig in its entire duration/director's cut version at least once and then make up your mind about it. You owe yourself that if you're such a Visconti fan as I know you are.

[tavernier]

Here's the answer I got from Infinity Arthouse publicity:

Thanks for your questions about Ludwig.

The aspect ratio will indeed be 2:35:1 - it's colour and audio is the original mono.

Simon Fowler
Aim Publicity

(Note nothing is said about 16/9, which I asked about.)

[Scharphedin2]

Wow, maybe I am in the wrong forum… I am surprised to see the division in opinion on DEATH IN VENICE. This film was my introduction to Visconti; it made a huge impression on me when first I saw it, and my enthusiasm for it has never waned... it is possibly my favorite Visconti, and in my view the director's most personal film. I really would be interesting to read some more substantial views on the film (possibly in another thread?)

Great to have the question of LUDWIG's presentation resolved. Now, if the documentary included on this disc is identical to the one released separately by Image in R1, then in the interest of furthering Visconti appreciation, I will donate my copy of the Image disc to any forum member, who will not be purchasing the LUDWIG disc, but would like to view the doc… provided, of course, that he/she is in the pro-DEATH IN VENICE camp

[Lino]

And someone by now must have a translation of that dubbed-in Polish dialogue between Sylvana and the kid about "the pathetic old queen."

Here it is:

From the scene when Aschenbach first sees Tadzio at the Hotel and then his mother played by Silvana Mangano arrives --

Mother to Tadzio: "You are a bit tired. Pale. If you stayed more in the sun, you would feel better."

Mother to Nanny: "You should take more care of Tadzio. He is too tired."

Mother to Tadzio: "If you keep getting tired your holiday won't do you any good."

Tadzio to Mother: "All right. I'll run less starting tomorrow."

Mother to Tadzio: "Don't forget about your promise, sweetheart. Good, my dear, we'll stay together tomorrow morning. Are you glad? You won't get annoyed."

Mother to Nanny: "I would like to have the children ready by 9:00 tomorrow morning. Let's join everyone at the table."

That' it. Very matter of fact, actually. Are you happy now that after more than 30 years you finally found out what the hell they were all saying, David? Or disappointed at the lack of gossip material, hey?

This film was my introduction to Visconti; it made a huge impression on me when first I saw it, and my enthusiasm for it has never waned... it is possibly my favorite Visconti, and in my view the director's most personal film.

Same here! This one was also my first Visconti and I watched it in my late teens on late night TV. At the time we were studying poetry in a class in school and you know how those poets search and search for perfection all their lives and never quite get there? Well, I watched this wondrous film with that frame of mind and it really worked for me then as it still does now.

For me, Death in Venice is about an artist's search or searching for the intangible in Art. BTW, we used to have a thread on this film that no longer seems to be around but I remember it quite clearly.

[tavernier]

For me, Death in Venice is about an artist's search or searching for the intangible in Art.

That's quite true, but Mann's original novella and Britten's amazing opera present this theme (among others) much more compellingly than Visconti's film.

[Scharphedin2]

I too was in high school, and saw it the first time very late at night on TV... I could not get it out of my head for weeks, and it is one of those films that has literally never left me.

Later, I had the opportunity to see the film on the big screen at a retrospective of Visconti's work in Chicago, and my circumstances in that city (I was very poor and attending film school -- actually sacrificing my food budget to buy a beautiful hardcover edition of Mann's "Buddenbrooks" at one point ) made the experience even more powerful, and of course it was just gorgeous on the big screen.

I would often be sitting in a train or walking down the a street, and images from the film would come back to me, and of course Mahler's beautiful music (a chapter onto itself).

In recent years, thanks to the wonders of Laserdisc and DVD, I am able to go back and view a few scenes ever so often... I still find it just as haunting and beautiful... Similarly to what I think you describe, this may be all just a very subjective response based on experiences and memories that coincide with seeing this particular film, but I believe there is a lot that can be said objectively as well.

That's quite true, but Mann's original novella and Britten's amazing opera present this theme (among others) much more compellingly than Visconti's film.

Do you mean Mahler's music used in the film? I could almost agree with you on that. With respect to the novella I probably still prefer Visconti's film, only because I really do not see this as an adaptation of just the novella, but more as a synthesis of Mann's qualities and themes as a writer, Mahler and his music, as well as Visconti's own persona. Of course the skeleton of the novella and the title are intact, but the character of Aschenbach in the film is probably closer to the real life Gustav Mahler, than to the Aschenbach of the novella. And, the mood and pace of the film is probably closer to some of Mann's other novels (THE MAGIC MOUNTAIN and even DOCTOR FAUSTUS) than it is to the novella of the title.

[tavernier]

There's a lot I find wrong with the film, not least the complete misuse of Mahler's persona and music. It doesn't bother me that Visconti strayed from Mann's novella more than Britten and his librettist Myfanwy Piper did with their opera; but shoehorning a Mahler surrogate into this story is a colossal miscalculation by Visconti.

[Scharphedin2]

I think a lot of these preferences also have to do with the point in your life at which you discover a work. It is possible that if I had seen DEATH IN VENICE much later in life, or after having seen a lot of Visconti's other work, or after having read more of Mann's work, or even after having experienced Britten's opera (sorry, i misunderstood your reference the first time, and I am unfortunately not familiar with Britten's work), that I may have felt differently about this particular film. But, as it is, I did and still do respond strongly to this film on an emotional and intuitive level.

Looking at it more objectively, I still do not understand why you feel Visconti was so wrong in drawing upon the life and music of Mahler for his character of Aschenbach. How about if we view Aschenbach as a surrogate for Visconti, and the whole film is a self-portrait in which Visconti mirrors himself in the images of his two artistic predescessors, and traces his own obsessions and quest for the sublime in art and life on top of those of Mann and Mahler? I suppose you could say that would be an act of pretense on the part of Visconti for allowing himself to even breathe the same air as M&M, but again, do you think Visconti's oeuvre taken as a whole within the history of cinema is really so far from the measure of Mann's in literature and Mahler's in music?

And then in the end, there is the strictly cinematic beauty of the film... I think that even if I agreed with you, I would still be able to find this film enjoyable for the recreation of the period, and the mood that is created in the meeting between De Santis photography and Mahler's music.

Tavernier, I genuinely respect your views and hope you will explain further, why you find the film so awful.[/quote]

[Don Lope de Aguirre]

My memory of Death in Venice is quite hazy (by the end I was half asleep) but I distinctly remember feeling this sense of complacency on Visconti's behalf. It struck me as self-parodic and self-important. Sadly, Visconti's oh-so-lofty ambitions were not matched by the achievement (that is the film).

[tryavna]

I am unfortunately not familiar with Britten's work

This is something you must rectify soon! Britten's work is amazing in general!

[tavernier]

I am unfortunately not familiar with Britten's work

This is something you must rectify soon! Britten's work is amazing in general!

And in particular....although I don't recommend that you start listening to his operas with Death in Venice (for my money his crowning achievement)....start chronologically with Peter Grimes and work your way to Death in Venice , his final opera.

[tryavna]

Yep, Peter Grimes is probably the best starting place for his operas, though if you're averse to diving right in to an opera, you might consider starting off with the orchestral suite "Four Sea Interludes," which takes music from Peter Grimes. His choral works are also outstanding. I'm particularly attached to his "Ceremony of Carols," Missa Brevis, and of course his War Requiem.

[Scharphedin2]

Yup, being a member here will definitely prove to round out my cultural education... I do appreciate these recommendations -- this kind of input was what I hoped to achieve from posting here. I may not get to Britten right away... but I will remember your recommendations.

Don Lope... I think some of your earlier post fell out, or, maybe you changed it. The way you described the discussion between Aschenbach and his friend in one of the flashback sequences in DIV really made me laugh... this/these sequence(s) did feel artificial to me, when I first saw the film, but then it does conclude with the (to me) wonderful moment in which Aschenbach talks about the hourglass, and reflects upon the passing of time, and the way Bogarde plays it, you see how moved Aschenbach is by these observations, and then as the viewer you are aware of just how self-conscious and self-important Ascenbach is... I cannot help thinking that Visconti is actually mimicking the style of early 20th century German literature... This type of strange, somewhat artificial intellectual discourse does appear in several of Mann's and Hesse's books. That said, I know what you are referring to in this case, and I am not sure that I am convinced of my own argument here...

You also made a comment to the effect of not getting the subjective experience of a film involved in an assessment of a film's qualities as film (I appologise, if this was not what you actually said -- this was how I read it). I agree that there is a time for everything, and I sometimes enjoy to read hard core film theory and criticism. However, what I really enjoy in reading these threads are the moments when people engage with the films on a personal level. It is a constant source of joy and wonder to me, how films are able to affect and move people, and in such different ways. I hope you will not think me too shallow in these posts, if a few sparkles of personal memory sometimes creep into things... after all, to paraphrase you (or the bitch from Solondz as it were), it is just my opinion

[Don Lope de Aguirre]

Scharphedin, I edited the post! The film obviously means a lot to you, I didn't want to show too much derision just in case you're the sensitive type...

To be honest, your knowledge of the film is much, much better than mine! Re. Visconti mimicking 20th Century German Lit...I am not an expert in this field but, for sure, Visconti doesn't possess that kind of mind... a Godard or a Fassbinder, yes...but Visconti? Never...

I look forward to seeing Ludwig (hopefully in a decent edition) and I hope that my theory on Visconti is proved wrong (though I'm not holding my breath...)

[Barmy]

I've scrolled over the "Venice" debate, but man it (the debate, not the flick) is f***ing BORING.

[John Cope]

I adore both Death in Venice and Ludwig and would argue that Ludwig may be Visconti's finest accomplishment, the culmination of his vision. I remember watching it for the first time and marvelling that it even existed. I think this film exemplifies what is so foreign and unfashionable in much of his work. It's about the tragedy of a life founded on pure aesthetics and yet contains genuine admiration for the nobility and the majesty of such pure vision and the cultural acumen it evidences. In many ways Ludwig would have made a good subject for Herzog. If you don't truly care about what lies at the heart of Ludwig's madness (and Visconti is certainly sympathetic) than I can't imagine that you would get much from this. Consider just the opening ten minutes, in which Ludwig speaks to his confessor and attends the coronation--this is a beautiful, perfectly realized but heavily coded sequence which can only make sense and resonate if these rituals and their inherent cultural freight matter to us.

I remember an absurd review of the film by Roger Ebert (which is still available online for those interested) in which he dismissed it ultimately because it had no apparent relevance. He criticized Visconti for his outmoded themes and ideas which was a perfect pretext for Ebert's own indifference to these same themes and ideas.

[Scharphedin2]

Scharphedin, I edited the post! The film obviously means a lot to you, I didn't want to show too much derision just in case you're the sensitive type...

Don Lope, I think your original message was curt, but also witty. I did not take offense, but I think this was really classy of you.

I think I will lick my wounded heart on the DEATH IN VENICE account. However, I hope I can solicit a few comments on a couple of other Visconti films.

VAGHE STELLE DELL'ORSA/SANDRA (1965) -- I have never had a chance to see this film (is it available anwhere on DVD?), and it is not one that receives too much attention in discussions of Visconti's work.

and (probably I will regret this)...

L'INNOCENTE (1976) -- This was Visconti's last film, and released after his death, as far as I know. I saw it more than ten years ago, and remember being positively surprised (mostly the opinions that I had heard had been negative). Coincidentally, The R2 Nouveaux disc was waiting for me in my mailbox, when I came home from work today. I viewed the scene, where the character of Giancarlo Giannini takes his wife to a secluded villa and walks with her in the garden. He is suspecting her of being unfaithful, and his eyes literally smoulder with jealousy and lust. Later he claims her sexually, and it is a strange scene, very sensual but also disturbing, with Giannini resembling nothing so much as a predator playing with its prey. Nouveaux' presentation of the film looks fine, but not stellar. I am just happy to be able to see this film again, and expect that I will watch it in its entirety over the weekend. Meanwhile, I would like to hear any comments that may throw more light on this film... I do not know much more about it, than I have written here.

My apologies, if I break protocol by lapsing into a discussion of these films in a thread that started with an announcement of LUDWIG on DVD.