Sidney Lumet

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oh yeah
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#26 Post by oh yeah » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:52 am

Antoine Doinel wrote:I finally saw Prince Of The City tonight and what a great film it is, and completely underrated. I'm really glad Al Pacino turned down the role of Ciello, as Treat Williams brings a naivete the role that makes the anguish he goes through that much more real. It's an amazing performance, and the excellent work extends right through to the supporting cast. It's amazing to see the influence this has had on contemporary films and television series' about police work. This is a procedural of the highest order and it's a shame Warner's couldn't have been bothered to give the long awaited DVD even better treatment.

Has anyone seen the 4-hour cut? Is it available on the bootleg circuit?
What 4-hour cut are you talking about? I have heard a few vague whispers of this longer cut of Prince, mostly on the IMDb boards or user reviews. However, I've never seen any kind of official confirmation that this cut exists, nor a still from or a description of some scene that appears in the longer cut, etc. I believe that the "longer cut" is simply a myth, created in the minds of people who watched the film on television in the 80s and 90s. Because of the commercials, naturally the film -- running a little under 3 hours -- would be at least an hour more, commercials included. I've even read some refer to it as a 5 or 5 1/2 hr cut! I doubt it exists, though, because there are no specifics on it to be found and that's odd even for a somewhat overlooked film like this.

I'd love to watch a longer cut if there were one, though, because this is one of the most amazing epic films ever -- its length breezes right by. Even though it's actually not quite that long -- it's 167 minutes -- it nonetheless feels like a true epic, like a 3 or 4+ hour film, because of its dizzying scope, cast of 100+ speaking parts, incredible amount of exposition or information conveyed, etc. Yet it's never didactic or boring about this. To me it's in the pantheon with A Brighter Summer Day, Casino, Short Cuts, Barry Lyndon and others in terms of lengthy films which feel half their length and which I could watch at least another hour of.

And by the way, when will this masterpiece finally be graced with a blu-ray release? It took long enough to get it on DVD, I suppose, so there's no reason to hold out hope... and even when it got on DVD, it was odd -- a 2-disc set for a merely 167 minute film, with the film in two parts spread across both discs? Why? The only extra was a half-hour doc about the making of, hardly reason to split it across two discs. And this was in 2007, too. Doesn't seem like standard practice for Warner, but they did it there. Weird.

Incidentally, one of the things that's interesting about this film is how prophetic and ahead of its time it now feels. It's very much a precursor to a series like The Wire, thematically and formally, and also a formal precursor to all these other intricate, complex, non-dumbed down dramas which have casts of dozens and dozens of people, which feel like they're showing us an entire world and not just a little corner of one. I think that maybe in 1981 the way the film just dumps info at the viewer may have been alienating, but today with all the HBO (and otherwise) golden-age TV that's been consumed by most, it probably seems familiar, if anything, to the average person.

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ando
Bringing Out El Duende
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#27 Post by ando » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:28 am

Been on a Lumet kick. The American Masters episode is streaming for another week or two.
Robert Horton from [url=http://www.heraldnet.com/life/sidney-lumet-documentary-is-suprisingly-lackluster/]heraldnet.com[/url] on the episode wrote:Voicing his irritation at auteurist critics who found Lumet a lesser light because he lacked a central theme, Lumet insists he really does have one. It has to do with his interest in rebels, in integrity, and the difficulty of doing the right thing.

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ando
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#28 Post by ando » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:50 am

I highly recommend the PBS doc, which is far more revelatory than TCM's Private Screenings interview with Lumet, for instance, though that interview is fine standard fare (included on the Network 2 Disc Special Edition).

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willoneill
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#29 Post by willoneill » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:22 pm

ando wrote:I highly recommend the PBS doc, which is far more revelatory than TCM's Private Screenings interview with Lumet, for instance, though that interview is fine standard fare (included on the Network 2 Disc Special Edition).
Seconded. One aspect of it that I liked is that instead of just a chronological review of his filmography, the discussion went back and forth and was organized by various themes.

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ando
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#30 Post by ando » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:11 am

You get the feeling, listening to Lumet, that he could have done anything in the business - creatively - as long as he was working. Course, that could be true of many directors, but Lumet certainly wasn't especially concerned with strict aesthetic principles the way, say Kurosawa or Tarkovsky were. The focus on actor performances in his films reflects Lumet's tutelage as a child actor. It reminds me of something Orson Welles once said of a really good director: (I'm paraphrasing) If he's something of an actor, something of a cameraman, something of a writer, something of a cutter and preferably completely an actor, completely a cameraman, completely a writer, completely a cutter then his contribution is a real one.

Welles also shared Lumet's concern that American actors were deficient in period training despite their strength in realism. Lumet was kicked out of the original Group Theater after expressing that opinion. But he was absolutely right. Things have changed somewhat today but I'd have to say that American actors, in the main, are still not regarded as artists of great technical merit despite their wonderful vitality. Hollywood still reaches for the Brits for technically challenging roles, even in television.

flyonthewall2983
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#31 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:21 am

Prince Of The City is on Cinemax. Would really love to see the extended version if it in fact exists. On top of what's already been said, I've got to say it's cool seeing Jerry Orbach in this kind of performance years before his run on Law & Order.

That all said I would have liked to have seen what Brian DePalma had in mind for the source material.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#32 Post by hearthesilence » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:35 pm

Prince of the City is screening next week on Thursday, Nov 7 at 7:00pm at BAM, followed by a post-screening discussion with professor and author Maura Spiegel (the upcoming Sidney Lumet: A Life out on December 10) and the film's lead actor Treat Williams. I can't make this, I'm sorry to say, as I've never seen it, but it's often cited as one of Lumet's masterpieces and probably the most neglected of them, so definitely check it out.

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ando
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#33 Post by ando » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:36 pm

The Offence is currently on APrime. It's a film rarely mentioned, much less discussed/reviewed in film circles but it's lauded as some of the best work from both Lumet and lead, Sean Connery.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#34 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:33 am

I saw The Verdict again for the first time in a very long time. Since then I've come across a lot of people, in-person and in-print, who've knocked it. Most (but not all) of the complaints I've seen generally fall under 3 categories: 1) they think the movie is flawed because Frank Galvin is a terrible lawyer (with many implying that the filmmakers didn't seem to know they were making him so incompetent, 2) the film is too unrealistic and unbelievable because of the misdeeds of Galvin, the opposing lawyers, the judge and really the whole legal system - many are especially offended that the "hero" would break the law to help his case, 3) it's also a damaging portrait of the law that's much more harmful than edifying.

Having caught up with it again, it has its flaws - there are a few moments that do feel a bit like pandering for awards. The most egregious one that I wish had been rewritten was the scene where Galvin meets the bishop - when he explains why he's rejecting their offer, it's too much and Newman's otherwise great performance can't save it. One of the strengths of Mamet's script (as stated by both Lumet and Newman) is that it holds back a lot and allows the audience to absorb their motives - they already revealed a lot in this manner with Galvin's preceding visit to the plaintiff, and now here he is laying out so much of what we've already pieced together. It feels too direct and clumsy. But it's just one scene, and it wasn't enough to derail the film for me.

Beyond that, the film played much better than expected. Galvin really is a terrible lawyer - and honestly, I can't imagine Mamet or Lumet ever thinking otherwise. It's two hours of cringe-inducing tension to see how incompetent Galvin really is, and everyone knows it, from the opposing side to Warden's character to Galvin himself. In fact, every time he fucks up, someone's there to recognize that he fucked up. (His client even calls him out, telling him he could be disbarred for not notifying them regarding a settlement offer.) And yes, it's pretty bad that he breaks the law too. But it's completely organic to the tone of the film - and it's not out of character, even though his life was unjustly ruined when he was framed for a disbarrable offense. This feels apiece to some of Mamet's best works, but Galvin is basically a sucker who has been eaten alive by the type of deeply corrupt world you'd expect from any of Mamet's plays or Lumet's urban films. He was a good, thoroughly decent man but none of those qualities win in court, and none of them matter in getting ahead in the professional world. I'm sure that rang true in 1982. In the years since I've seen this film, I've known plenty of people who go to law school, and from the long discussions of what to do after law school, the idealistic paths are often in direct conflict with the lucrative ones (i.e. do I do something that can pay off these loans or stay deep in debt for a very, very long time). It feels like the opposing law firm is stocked with the best and brightest coming out of the top law schools. It's a morally bankrupt firm, but it's also got the money and the prestige that any top grad probably wants on their resume - the money essentially buys a good deal of that prestige too. (Like any big law firm, they mention the pro bono work that’s essentially financed by the revenue made from their high paying clients, and it's telling that Galvin originally believes Concannon is a decent man - it's likely he knows him by his public reputation, and he's mistaken about him just as he is about his original firm.) They may paint both sides in extremes, but at least to me, it doesn't feel wrong or dishonest in terms of how the deck got to be stacked against those less privileged and less powerful. When Newman eventually resorts to disbarrable offenses to win his cases, technically they are bad offenses with regards to the law, but weighed morally, they feel very petty compared to what the more powerful players are getting away with. I think that says a lot, and it makes sense coming from a man who can't trust what he once practiced and who's already been crushed over and over again by people who play by a different set of rules. (Also sounds pretty damn familiar in light of recent events - a LOT of recent events quite frankly.) The obvious part of this film is how some bad people did something horrible and rig the system to get away with it, but the other part that's just as damning is how the marginalized and the decent are ultimately disempowered when they are held to the same ethical standards that don't seem to apply to the worst and most powerful.

If you search the NY Times, they actually did at least one feature where they interviewed lawyers, judges, etc. who didn't like the film and lamented the impact it would have on their world. I would've been more sympathetic to that at one point, but I can't say experience has made the film's cynicism feel too unkind.

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knives
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#35 Post by knives » Fri Dec 29, 2023 11:52 am

Any word of anyone doing anything special for his 100th birthday next year?

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TechnicolorAcid
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#36 Post by TechnicolorAcid » Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:03 pm

knives wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2023 11:52 am
Any word of anyone doing anything special for his 100th birthday next year?
Would the Imprint box set count even if’s been release just a couple of days before the new year? Maybe there’ll be another box set next year from Imprint.

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tolbs1010
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#37 Post by tolbs1010 » Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:32 pm

All I want for Sidney's 100th b-day is a blu ray of Q&A. A 4K of Network would be nice, too. Neither from Imprint, please.

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TechnicolorAcid
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#38 Post by TechnicolorAcid » Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:15 pm

If we’re chatting about potential Lumet 4Ks, please let next year be the year we get Dog Day Afternoon from Criterion.

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#39 Post by yoloswegmaster » Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:26 pm

It would be cool to get a 4K of Dog Day Afternoon from Criterion or WB next year but I can also see it getting a release in 2025 for its 50th anniversary.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#40 Post by hearthesilence » Fri Dec 29, 2023 2:15 pm

Dog Day Afternoon would be at the top of my list, easily my favorite Lumet film, followed by Long Day's Journey Into Night, his television production of The Iceman Cometh, Prince of the City and The Verdict.

I guess I'd want to see an upgrade for The Iceman Cometh more than anything, but I'm not sure what kind of elements are available and how much better they could look. Given its early television origins, it may be beyond much help.

beamish14
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#41 Post by beamish14 » Fri Dec 29, 2023 2:45 pm

hearthesilence wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2023 2:15 pm
Dog Day Afternoon would be at the top of my list, easily my favorite Lumet film, followed by Long Day's Journey Into Night, his television production of The Iceman Cometh, Prince of the City and The Verdict.

I guess I'd want to see an upgrade for The Iceman Cometh more than anything, but I'm not sure what kind of elements are available and how much better they could look. Given its early television origins, it may be beyond much help.

I was thinking about that production with Jason Robards as well. It would be great to have some kind of deluxe set, but I don’t see any of those amazing Broadway Theatre Archive discs getting upgrades

Q & A and Daniel are at the top of my list for upgrades, and so is his outre masterpiece Last of the Mobile Hot-Shots

Is Lovin’ Molly still Sony? It had a Region 2 DVD but has never gotten a North America release. I don’t even think it ever came out on VHS

I’d kill to see his original cut of the HBO film Strip Search, which was infamously withheld and edited against his wishes

crimlaw
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#42 Post by crimlaw » Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:26 pm

Now there’s an interesting totally left field suggestion:

The Last of the Mobile Hot Shots

One of the few Lumet film I’ve never seen. The other one that is totally impossible to come by:

The Assignment

beamish14
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#43 Post by beamish14 » Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:38 pm

crimlaw wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:26 pm
Now there’s an interesting totally left field suggestion:

The Last of the Mobile Hot Shots

One of the few Lumet film I’ve never seen. The other one that is totally impossible to come by:

The Assignment

Mobile Hot-Shots fascinates me. I posted about it here years ago, but it really is among my favorite Tennessee Williams adaptations, and James Wong Howe’s photography is beautiful. It was produced during that very short period when Seven Arts/WB was willing to produce films that got X-ratings. Extremely ahead of its time in how it anticipates reality television. Screenwriter Gore Vidal hated it and it never screens or gets much critical reevaluation, which is sad

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tolbs1010
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#44 Post by tolbs1010 » Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:38 pm

beamish14 wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2023 2:45 pm
Is Lovin’ Molly still Sony? It had a Region 2 DVD but has never gotten a North America release. I don’t even think it ever came out on VHS
Currently available on Tubi, which often seems like a harbinger of a physical release. Tubi loves to pick up the unloved or little-seen titles of famous filmmakers' oeuvres. And I thank them for it.

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knives
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#45 Post by knives » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:31 pm

hearthesilence wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2023 2:15 pm
Dog Day Afternoon would be at the top of my list, easily my favorite Lumet film, followed by Long Day's Journey Into Night, his television production of The Iceman Cometh, Prince of the City and The Verdict.

I guess I'd want to see an upgrade for The Iceman Cometh more than anything, but I'm not sure what kind of elements are available and how much better they could look. Given its early television origins, it may be beyond much help.
I think a set of television works would be quite exciting and essential for exploring his initial development.

beamish14
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 3:07 pm

Re: Sidney Lumet

#46 Post by beamish14 » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:34 pm

knives wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:31 pm
hearthesilence wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2023 2:15 pm
Dog Day Afternoon would be at the top of my list, easily my favorite Lumet film, followed by Long Day's Journey Into Night, his television production of The Iceman Cometh, Prince of the City and The Verdict.

I guess I'd want to see an upgrade for The Iceman Cometh more than anything, but I'm not sure what kind of elements are available and how much better they could look. Given its early television origins, it may be beyond much help.
I think a set of television works would be quite exciting and essential for exploring his initial development.

Oh, definitely. I wish there were sets just devoted to the TV works of people like Lumet, Frankenheimer, Arthur Penn, and Paddy Chayefsky

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TechnicolorAcid
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Re: Sidney Lumet

#47 Post by TechnicolorAcid » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:48 pm

beamish14 wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:34 pm
knives wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:31 pm
hearthesilence wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2023 2:15 pm
Dog Day Afternoon would be at the top of my list, easily my favorite Lumet film, followed by Long Day's Journey Into Night, his television production of The Iceman Cometh, Prince of the City and The Verdict.

I guess I'd want to see an upgrade for The Iceman Cometh more than anything, but I'm not sure what kind of elements are available and how much better they could look. Given its early television origins, it may be beyond much help.
I think a set of television works would be quite exciting and essential for exploring his initial development.

Oh, definitely. I wish there were sets just devoted to the TV works of people like Lumet, Frankenheimer, Arthur Penn, and Paddy Chayefsky
I think it’s high time we start requesting Criterion for a second Golden Age of Television set.

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