Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Moderator: MichaelB
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
I didn't read Werewolf's post as an attack on MichaelB and co and all, it seemed like a pretty innocuous sentiment (and one frequently brought up elsewhere on the board)
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Yes, it certainly wouldn't the first time that a release generates more comments before its release date than after.
- RossyG
- Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:50 pm
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
...and once you've decoded the accents. I'm longing for the American reaction to Goodnight Albert.domino harvey wrote:Sure, us stateside people will let you know in eight months when our Asendia packages finally arrive from Amazon
- Big Ben
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
- Location: Great Falls, Montana
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Received my set today (alongside the two Alan Clarke books and the theatrical version of Scum). I immediately went off to watch Road and would like to now share my thoughts on this amazing little film.
As someone who grew up in and still lives in a small town (although nowhere near as small as this one) I found this to be incredibly touching. This was the perfect place to start! Thanks to MichaelB and Nick Wrigley for their recommendation!
"Somehow, somehow, I might escape."
I'll share more thoughts as they come to me (I'd like some more time to process) but I hope this enough to start a small conversation with those who have seen the film.
As someone who grew up in and still lives in a small town (although nowhere near as small as this one) I found this to be incredibly touching. This was the perfect place to start! Thanks to MichaelB and Nick Wrigley for their recommendation!
"Somehow, somehow, I might escape."
SpoilerShow
I think what stuck me most about the film was how organic it felt. The monologues that take up most of the film didn't strike me once as insincere and neither did the performances (especially by the woman playing Carol). Clarke's camera follows this individuals in a way that felt strange at first (At least to me, I haven't seen takes this long since I last watched an Angelopoulos film!) but gradually become the soul of the picture. We aren't just following people, we're following their very lives, memories, hopes and dreams. When I accepted this it become an incredibly emotional experience for me. I've heard these stories before, these frustrations vented. I've seen the spit fly and felt the emotions some of these characters have felt. The long takes only serve to further the purpose of the words Jim Cartwright wrote.
On that same note I think it's a testament to Clarke that the film in no way judges these characters (Unlike my home town). They're simply followed by the camera. Allowed to speak freely about everything within them.
On that same note I think it's a testament to Clarke that the film in no way judges these characters (Unlike my home town). They're simply followed by the camera. Allowed to speak freely about everything within them.
- Big Ben
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
- Location: Great Falls, Montana
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
I just finished watching The Director's Cut of The Firm and I'm sort of dumbfounded. People actually did things like this? As in this took inspiration from things people were really doing in England? I realize this may sound dumb but I cannot wrap my head around this lunacy.
The film was great though!
The film was great though!
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Not just did, still doing. Google "England Russia Marseilles" for a very very recent example. And indeed an ongoing one, for as long as those teams remain in Euro 2016 (although both have been threatened with premature expulsion, and Russia is currently on a final warning.)
- Big Ben
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
- Location: Great Falls, Montana
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
I'm shocked to say the least. I'm not too invested in the sports world and this comes as quite a shock to me.
As for the film, some thoughts:
"I need the buzz!"
As for the film, some thoughts:
"I need the buzz!"
SpoilerShow
I think what stuck me again, much like Road was how organic everything felt (Even the fight scenes). Clarke allowed Bex to breathe, regardless of how he felt about him (Reading about the film in the essay in the book tells me Clarke was very frustrated with hooliganism). Clarke films the scenes of tribalistic fervor with a gaze that I don't see too often and I could only really watch in horror at certain scenes (The one involving the child was too terrible for words). What makes the film so disturbing for me is that the film doesn't go out of it's way to necessarily condemn Bex as much as it simply shows the scenes of escalating violence with an unflinching gaze. While it's obvious to us now how Clarke felt about people like Bex I think it's a testament to him that he didn't need to get on a soapbox to show the horrors of both escalating violence but hooliganism as well.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
For me, this is the absolutely fundamental difference between Alan Clarke and Ken Loach, for all the superficial similarity between the subjects that they often tackle. I'm a huge Loach admirer, but he doesn't trust his audience half as much as Clarke does.While it's obvious to us now how Clarke felt about people like Bex I think it's a testament to him that he didn't need to get on a soapbox to show the horrors of both escalating violence but hooliganism as well.
- Big Ben
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
- Location: Great Falls, Montana
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
I have only seen one film by Ken Loach, The Wind That Shakes the Barley so I can't necessarily comment on him as well as you can. What I can say is that I didn't feel preached at and I felt as if I was I was indeed trusted with the material as a member of the audience. It was an incredibly refreshing, if disturbing experience.MichaelB wrote:For me, this is the absolutely fundamental difference between Alan Clarke and Ken Loach, for all the superficial similarity between the subjects that they often tackle. I'm a huge Loach admirer, but he doesn't trust his audience half as much as Clarke does.While it's obvious to us now how Clarke felt about people like Bex I think it's a testament to him that he didn't need to get on a soapbox to show the horrors of both escalating violence but hooliganism as well.
- RossyG
- Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:50 pm
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
You might find this interesting:Big Ben wrote:I just finished watching The Director's Cut of The Firm and I'm sort of dumbfounded. People actually did things like this? As in this took inspiration from things people were really doing in England? I realize this may sound dumb but I cannot wrap my head around this lunacy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wav_Bfhb5Tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- thirtyframesasecond
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:48 pm
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Looks like Croatia have surpassed both. They were fighting themselves in the stands!MichaelB wrote:Not just did, still doing. Google "England Russia Marseilles" for a very very recent example. And indeed an ongoing one, for as long as those teams remain in Euro 2016 (although both have been threatened with premature expulsion, and Russia is currently on a final warning.)
- thirtyframesasecond
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:48 pm
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Yeah Road is phenomenally good. In theory Clarke's steadicam experiments should suit Cartwright's kitchen sink play like oil suits water, but it meshes brilliantly well. It's quite something; Carole's rapid-fire dialogue with anyone she comes across with, Valerie's monologue that feels completely claustrophobic to listen to, even David Thewlis as Joey like some kind of younger Johnny from Naked. If you wanted a televisual document of 80s Northern Britain, Road is it.Big Ben wrote:Received my set today (alongside the two Alan Clarke books and the theatrical version of Scum). I immediately went off to watch Road and would like to now share my thoughts on this amazing little film.
As someone who grew up in and still lives in a small town (although nowhere near as small as this one) I found this to be incredibly touching. This was the perfect place to start! Thanks to MichaelB and Nick Wrigley for their recommendation!
"Somehow, somehow, I might escape."
I'll share more thoughts as they come to me (I'd like some more time to process) but I hope this enough to start a small conversation with those who have seen the film.SpoilerShowI think what stuck me most about the film was how organic it felt. The monologues that take up most of the film didn't strike me once as insincere and neither did the performances (especially by the woman playing Carol). Clarke's camera follows this individuals in a way that felt strange at first (At least to me, I haven't seen takes this long since I last watched an Angelopoulos film!) but gradually become the soul of the picture. We aren't just following people, we're following their very lives, memories, hopes and dreams. When I accepted this it become an incredibly emotional experience for me. I've heard these stories before, these frustrations vented. I've seen the spit fly and felt the emotions some of these characters have felt. The long takes only serve to further the purpose of the words Jim Cartwright wrote.
On that same note I think it's a testament to Clarke that the film in no way judges these characters (Unlike my home town). They're simply followed by the camera. Allowed to speak freely about everything within them.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
The Digital Fix's disc-by-disc survey reaches A Follower for Emily and Diane.
- Big Ben
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
- Location: Great Falls, Montana
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Having a break from work is nice and I've managed to watch both versions of Scum over the course of two days. As such you can throw me into the lot that prefers the original television version of Scum to the theatrical version. While there are things to like about both versions I much prefer the more documentary-style feeling of the original.
A few brief thoughts on why I feel this way:
One thing the theatrical version does have over the television version.
I will say this. Watching just these few features from Clarke has been an incredibly refreshing experience.
A few brief thoughts on why I feel this way:
SpoilerShow
The most glaring omission from the theatrical version is Carlin's lack of taking on a "missus". I feel it removed some vulnerability from the character.
The sequence with Archer and the official. The framing was better in the television version and created more tension. At least I feel this way. I feel on the whole that the original was framed better.
The violence seemed to be stepped up simply because it was allowed theatrically. I'm not necessarily complaining about Clarke's use of it as much as I feel the restraint of the original was more effective.
The sequence with Archer and the official. The framing was better in the television version and created more tension. At least I feel this way. I feel on the whole that the original was framed better.
The violence seemed to be stepped up simply because it was allowed theatrically. I'm not necessarily complaining about Clarke's use of it as much as I feel the restraint of the original was more effective.
SpoilerShow
Is the sequence when Carlin acts against the original "Daddy" and his associate. The hand held shot leading up the steps is amazing.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
For me the absolutely pivotal difference between the TV and cinema versions of Scum is that the actors are the right age in the 1977 version. By 1979, they were two years older - and for teenagers, that makes one hell of a difference. They look more like young adults in the feature film, but the TV version really rams home just how young and vulnerable they were when they entered the Borstal system (which was abolished not long afterwards).
Incidentally, the omission of the "missus" sequence from the cinema version was at Ray Winstone's request, and he later conceded that this was a mistake. Screenwriter Roy Minton was furious about the cut - not least because at the time it seemed unlikely that anyone would get to see the TV version (which was ultimately given its first public airing in 1991, when it was already the age of some of its cast).
Incidentally, the omission of the "missus" sequence from the cinema version was at Ray Winstone's request, and he later conceded that this was a mistake. Screenwriter Roy Minton was furious about the cut - not least because at the time it seemed unlikely that anyone would get to see the TV version (which was ultimately given its first public airing in 1991, when it was already the age of some of its cast).
- kidc85
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:15 pm
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Just looked this up, the theatrical SCUM was 1979, borstals were abolished in the UK in 1982. Is there an established causal link between the two, or did SCUM reflect an already prevalent idea that the system had become broken?MichaelB wrote:the Borstal system (which was abolished not long afterwards).
- Big Ben
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
- Location: Great Falls, Montana
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
I agree. I thought many of the actors appeared too old in the theatrical version. Winstone in particular I felt was more vulnerable in the television version.MichaelB wrote:For me the absolutely pivotal difference between the TV and cinema versions of Scum is that the actors are the right age in the 1977 version. By 1979, they were two years older - and for teenagers, that makes one hell of a difference. They look more like young adults in the feature film, but the TV version really rams home just how young and vulnerable they were when they entered the Borstal system (which was abolished not long afterwards).
In the book included in the release a sentence states it may have played a role. Ashley Clarke wrote it. Although I'm still just off watching it I can certainly agree with the essay included. Scum is no "museum piece" and is certainly a critique of institution and is again certainly a portrait of disenfranchised youth.kidc85 wrote: Just looked this up, the theatrical SCUM was 1979, borstals were abolished in the UK in 1982. Is there an established causal link between the two, or did SCUM reflect an already prevalent idea that the system had become broken?
As someone whose parent worked on prisoner re-entry I can tell you that many of these boys would likely have no future, at least in the United States. Simply because of the way the system works. It's an endless cycle. That to me is what makes Scum so heartbreaking in places.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
The Digital Fix survey reaches Funny Farm and Scum.
- AidanKing
- Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:22 pm
- Location: Cornwall, U.K.
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
I agree entirely with what Big Ben and thirtyframesasecond have said about Road. I think it's here that the similarities between Clarke's steadicam and the types of tracking shots used by Bela Tarr and the Dardenne brothers become really clear, both in a formal sense and in the way they are used to show various kinds of entrapment. Of course, not all walking films are like this: I re-watched Richard Linklater's Before Sunrise recently and was struck by the obvious difference in the way that walking is used to express possibility and a degree of freedom instead.
It's sad that The Firm is really current again with events at the Euros and interesting that Ben was surprised that the film had a basis in reality, which of course makes sense if you come to it without any knowledge of the insanity of football hooliganism. I imagine people in America are also shocked that the British MP Jo Cox, who was killed on Thursday, didn't have any police protection when carrying out a surgery for her constituents, as I imagine a senator or congressman in the U.S. would have in a similar position, even though this is a partly a result of the availability of firearms. Also talking about the differences between the U.S. and U.K., I think Psy-Warriors is an interesting riposte to the idea, prevalent among many people in Britain, that the British state doesn't use torture as a tool of state policy.
Richard Kelly has written a good piece on Clarke's Northern Ireland films, which sees them as being pivotal in his development from a driven collaborator with writers to an auteur. Zedz wrote earlier about Elephant being the most extreme form of conceptual art its audience (a terrestrial TV broadcast!) would have seen at the time: it still seems like that to me now. In one of the radio broadcasts linked to earlier, David Leland talks about watching it and thinking Clarke had gone too far as the killings went on and on and then thinking that this has got to stop and then realising that that was the point.
It's sad that The Firm is really current again with events at the Euros and interesting that Ben was surprised that the film had a basis in reality, which of course makes sense if you come to it without any knowledge of the insanity of football hooliganism. I imagine people in America are also shocked that the British MP Jo Cox, who was killed on Thursday, didn't have any police protection when carrying out a surgery for her constituents, as I imagine a senator or congressman in the U.S. would have in a similar position, even though this is a partly a result of the availability of firearms. Also talking about the differences between the U.S. and U.K., I think Psy-Warriors is an interesting riposte to the idea, prevalent among many people in Britain, that the British state doesn't use torture as a tool of state policy.
Richard Kelly has written a good piece on Clarke's Northern Ireland films, which sees them as being pivotal in his development from a driven collaborator with writers to an auteur. Zedz wrote earlier about Elephant being the most extreme form of conceptual art its audience (a terrestrial TV broadcast!) would have seen at the time: it still seems like that to me now. In one of the radio broadcasts linked to earlier, David Leland talks about watching it and thinking Clarke had gone too far as the killings went on and on and then thinking that this has got to stop and then realising that that was the point.
- Big Ben
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
- Location: Great Falls, Montana
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
I think part of my shock comes from the fact that I'm an American and that I'm not too invested in the sports world.
As for Northern Ireland I must admit I'm very nervous about talking about the Troubles and Clarke's two films about them because I realize it's a thorny issue for some people. While I've read that Clarke avoided taking sides the idea of talking about a foreign countries politics while not being fully informed makes me sweat, not least because I'm on the spectrum and already have problems with communication ( I realize that may be TMI but I feel I need to get it out there because I'm spending so much time in the thread).
On another note I wish to thank MichaelB yet again for recommending both the Kelly and Rolinson books on Clarke. While I'm only reading sections as I move my way through the filmography I'm quite enjoying them. I can't recommend them enough for you guys.
Anyway I'm off to watch Penda's Fen now. Hoping it's as great as I've heard.
As for Northern Ireland I must admit I'm very nervous about talking about the Troubles and Clarke's two films about them because I realize it's a thorny issue for some people. While I've read that Clarke avoided taking sides the idea of talking about a foreign countries politics while not being fully informed makes me sweat, not least because I'm on the spectrum and already have problems with communication ( I realize that may be TMI but I feel I need to get it out there because I'm spending so much time in the thread).
On another note I wish to thank MichaelB yet again for recommending both the Kelly and Rolinson books on Clarke. While I'm only reading sections as I move my way through the filmography I'm quite enjoying them. I can't recommend them enough for you guys.
Anyway I'm off to watch Penda's Fen now. Hoping it's as great as I've heard.
- AidanKing
- Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:22 pm
- Location: Cornwall, U.K.
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
I think your shock is totally appropriate. The Firm should be shocking because the behaviour of football hooligans at the time was appalling. Unfortunately, hooliganism allowed the government to treat football fans in general as being subhuman in some way, which led pretty much directly to the Hillsborough disaster.Big Ben wrote:I think part of my shock comes from the fact that I'm an American and that I'm not too invested in the sports world.
I think it's marvellous that these films are now available in such a fantastic edition and are finding a new and enthusiastic audience as a result.
- Big Ben
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
- Location: Great Falls, Montana
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Although I've only seen a few films in the set now I will openly state this is arguably the best purchase I've made in any medium in a long, long time.AidanKing wrote: I think it's marvellous that these films are now available in such a fantastic edition and are finding a new and enthusiastic audience as a result.
Now onto Penda's Fen. What can I say about this film that likely already hasn't been said? It's beautiful, subversive and altogether brilliant. I cannot believe that this was made for television, especially at the time it was. It's content would arguably even be controversial on American television today! Certain thematic material, such as questioning the state, homosexuality, rejection of religion etc. is still regarded as taboo for many channels here and it's discussion either skirted around or avoided all together.
My brain is still processing this one and I'll very likely be visiting it again in the near future as I feel it will warrant repeat viewings. More thoughts to possibly follow.
- nosy lena
- Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:40 am
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
mine actually arrived today but my heart sank when i saw the package,domino harvey wrote:Sure, us stateside people will let you know in eight months when our Asendia packages finally arrive from Amazon
thankfully the set is solid and it wasn't too badly damaged.
- Big Ben
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
- Location: Great Falls, Montana
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Although mine did not arrive in that condition I have seen others report the same thing on Blu-Ray.com.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Dissent & Disruption: Alan Clarke at the BBC
Mine arrived today in a slightly beat up box but nowhere near that condition, and the set, despite having no internal cushioning etc inside the box, was fine