UHD and HDR in General

[FrauBlucher]

I watched my Uncut Gems UHD a few nights ago, and so far across ~10 UHD experiences thus far, the aspect of the format that stands out most to me isn’t the picture quality but the sound.

That explains why a handful of Criterion's UHDs have been sound centric releases.

[therewillbeblus]

Yeah it almost makes me want to double dip on The Last Waltz…

[FrauBlucher]

I'm bumping your post. I see you have questions....

I watched my Uncut Gems UHD a few nights ago, and so far across ~10 UHD experiences thus far, the aspect of the format that stands out most to me isn’t the picture quality but the sound. I’ve never been an audiophile- rarely discerning differences with my super-old cheap sound bar- but even on a low setting it’s extraordinary how powerful and well mixed it is. Am I imagining this since I don’t have anywhere near the right sound system to take advantage of the format, or would this be obvious even with my provisions?

Also, while I have no capability to upgrade my TV right now, I have been meaning to upgrade my sound system for a long time. Would it be worth doing so for UHD even without the best TV or is it best to do this altogether? Any options or recommendations would be helpful- thanks!

[senseabove]

Could be that one of the more recently upgraded elements in your chain—UHD player or TV, depending on what's hooked up to what—is better at downmixing surround/Atmos tracks? I doubt the quality of sound from a "super old, cheap soundbar" is going to change that drastically if you're not already the kind of person who knows he can hear the difference between a 320kbps mp3 file and a FLAC.

[therewillbeblus]

Good point, I'm sure one of those things is amplifying the sound in some respect- just like how the UHD player is allowing my Roku TV to show some changes in PQ. I suppose my question still stands regarding a setup- would a different sound system be worthwhile on its own, or does an HDR TV come with its own stuff to enhance this aspect? Just wondering if I should make the jump all at once or if it matters.

[senseabove]

Other than support for Atmos, UHD does not offer any raw technical improvement on the audio front, afaik, and until you have more than 5 speakers, Atmos really isn't something to be bothered about.

Granted that I was an audiophile before I was a cinephile, but I'm of the camp that sound bars are generally acceptable to awful. I've never heard one that I was impressed by, except for the many I've heard that were impressively bad, and I'd say there are very few set-ups that wouldn't be improved by a decent pair of bookshelf speakers and a receiver, and a subwoofer if you feel the need for it. But that's true in general: you could certainly improve your audio experience from a sound bar, but it's got little to nothing to do with making the jump to UHD.

[swo17]

Not sure what an audiophile would think of it, but my Sony A90J has a razor-thin speaker behind the entirety of the OLED panel that, to my ears, sounds perfectly sufficient on its own

[denti alligator]

I have a 5.1.2 setup, but honestly that .2 isn’t anything to write home about. And half of what I watch is simple mono, so….

[bad future]

Good point, I'm sure one of those things is amplifying the sound in some respect- just like how the UHD player is allowing my Roku TV to show some changes in PQ. I suppose my question still stands regarding a setup- would a different sound system be worthwhile on its own, or does an HDR TV come with its own stuff to enhance this aspect? Just wondering if I should make the jump all at once or if it matters.

The short answer is that I don't think any audio upgrade would be hindered by your TV, but to further explain: if anything I think most people would recommend having your sound routed straight from your BD player to your receiver or soundbar or whatever you're using for sound, because that removes the TV as a factor in sound quality, and can help improve a/v sync (at least I know I ran into issues with my audio lagging behind video when I had my player connected to my TV instead of the soundbar I was using.)

I'm assuming since you have a 4k player and mentioned a Roku TV that HDMI is already how you're making connections, and assuming any new sound system you're considering would have at least one dedicated HDMI input plus HDMI ARC for connecting to TV, and be capable of decoding Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD if not also newer formats like Dolby Atmos. All those things permitting, getting unadulterated sound from player to sound system is generally what people are after, whether by having the sound device pass video to the TV (in which case you'd want a sound system that supports 4k, and HDR/Dolby Vision if you still plan to upgrade your TV) or routing sound and video separately if your player has an optional audio-only HDMI out. There might be TV's with fancy audio settings, but I've never heard of one that anyone prefers to having a decent dedicated sound device handle that signal if given the option.

Edit!: Sorry for a belated addendum, but I did just randomly realize an exception to what I wrote before: if your BD player doesn't have an extra HDMI out for audio and your audio upgrade only has a single HDMI port (for connecting to the TV) then you'd have to use the TV as go-between and would only be able to take advantage of lossless audio with a TV that supports eARC. But most current soundbars do feature a full HDMI input in addition to the one for ARC, any recent a/v receiver should have several, and it's moot anyway if your player already has an HDMI out for audio.

[Farley Flavors]

I'm assuming since you have a 4k player and mentioned a Roku TV that HDMI is already how you're making connections, and assuming any new sound system you're considering would have at least one dedicated HDMI input plus HDMI ARC for connecting to TV, and be capable of decoding Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD if not also newer formats like Dolby Atmos. All those things permitting, getting unadulterated sound from player to sound system is generally what people are after, whether by having the sound device pass video to the TV (in which case you'd want a sound system that supports 4k, and HDR/Dolby Vision if you still plan to upgrade your TV) or routing sound and video separately if your player has an optional audio-only HDMI out.

I'll be upgrading to a 4K TV soon and hadn't considered that my old amp wouldn't be able to pass the video with HDR unaltered to the TV. It has TrueHD but not ARC. Would a solution be to get an HDMI splitter to send the audio directly to the receiver and the video directly to the TV from the single player output?

[jheez]

I'll be upgrading to a 4K TV soon and hadn't considered that my old amp wouldn't be able to pass the video with HDR unaltered to the TV. It has TrueHD but not ARC. Would a solution be to get an HDMI splitter to send the audio directly to the receiver and the video directly to the TV from the single player output?

Most 4k players have two HDMI outputs - one for video/audio and one for audio only. I would run one HDMI cable to the TV and one to the receiver

[Farley Flavors]

Most 4k players have two HDMI outputs - one for video/audio and one for audio only. I would run one HDMI cable to the TV and one to the receiver

I was looking at getting either a Zidoo or an Nvidia device, neither of which have multiple HDMI out ports.

[therewillbeblus]

Thanks bad future, my soundbar is pretty outdated, and I've never been able to figure out how to plug it directly into my player since the inputs/outputs don't match, but I'll explore sound options down the line that can do so... I'll probably wait and circle back here for optimal sound setups later (calling all audiophiles!) - thanks senseabove, I really appreciate your input/knowledge as well!

[bad future]

I'll be upgrading to a 4K TV soon and hadn't considered that my old amp wouldn't be able to pass the video with HDR unaltered to the TV. It has TrueHD but not ARC. Would a solution be to get an HDMI splitter to send the audio directly to the receiver and the video directly to the TV from the single player output?

I was looking at getting either a Zidoo or an Nvidia device, neither of which have multiple HDMI out ports.

I don't have personal experience with this particular dilemma, but I think with most basic HDMI splitters you'd run into an issue where the HDMI signal is automatically limited to the capabilities of the device with the oldest HDMI standard, in this case your amp, which would result in no HDR to the TV. Looking around online it looks like other people have had success with a more specialized HDMI splitter, or "HDMI audio extractor", like this one. I don't know if the one I linked is the best one, but it seems like it has features you'd want (second HDMI out whereas some seem to only have optical for audio, and supports ARC and eARC on the other HDMI out for connecting the TV) -- just stuff to keep in mind if you're shopping around!

[Farley Flavors]

I don't have personal experience with this particular dilemma, but I think with most basic HDMI splitters you'd run into an issue where the HDMI signal is automatically limited to the capabilities of the device with the oldest HDMI standard, in this case your amp, which would result in no HDR to the TV. Looking around online it looks like other people have had success with a more specialized HDMI splitter, or "HDMI audio extractor", like this one. I don't know if the one I linked is the best one, but it seems like it has features you'd want (second HDMI out whereas some seem to only have optical for audio, and supports ARC and eARC on the other HDMI out for connecting the TV) -- just stuff to keep in mind if you're shopping around!

Many thanks, that looks like the type of box I need.

Just to clarify (I'm new to all this) - if the audio extractor box didn't support ARC or eARC, I'd be able to pass HD audio from the external player to the amp and HDR to the telly, but I'd get no sound passed from the TV to the amp? Since I'd be using the external player for apps with HD sound, I figured I could get away with my current setup for TV sound (Virgin box to TV HDMI and optical audio out from TV to the amp). Or are there other advantages to eARC?

[bad future]

Just to clarify (I'm new to all this) - if the audio extractor box didn't support ARC or eARC, I'd be able to pass HD audio from the external player to the amp and HDR to the telly, but I'd get no sound passed from the TV to the amp?

Correct.

Since I'd be using the external player for apps with HD sound, I figured I could get away with my current setup for TV sound (Virgin box to TV HDMI and optical audio out from TV to the amp). Or are there other advantages to eARC?

I can't think of a reason why that wouldn't work, though I've never used that configuration -- if anyone has, feel free to chime in! Also can't think of a benefit to using HDMI over optical if HD audio isn't a factor; I was thinking maybe the ability for the TV to send CEC commands to the amp for powering on, volume, etc. but it looks like at least the splitter I linked to doesn't pass CEC commands from output 1 to output 2 anyway, even with ARC.

[senseabove]

StudioCanal continuing to be the most interesting label with their UHD picks: The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie forthcoming this Summer.

[andyli]

StudioCanal continuing to be the most interesting label with their UHD picks: The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie forthcoming this Summer.

Criterion should have waited rather than slap on an old HD master to their Bunuel set and call it a day. What a missed opportunity.

[CSM126]

StudioCanal continuing to be the most interesting label with their UHD picks: The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie forthcoming this Summer.

Criterion should have waited rather than slap on an old HD master to their Bunuel set and call it a day. What a missed opportunity.

If StudioCanal was willing to share the new master they probably would have mentioned it when Criterion licensed the Blu-Ray rights. I doubt Criterion turned their noses up and said they didn’t want it.

[andyli]

Well, they shared Le cercle rouge with Criterion and let them do their own UHD. I cannot see these two titles treated differently by StudioCanal in terms of their prestige. Also, 4K restorations don't happen over night and it's a tight knit industry. Criterion must have heard of something going on with this particular title, right?

[FrauBlucher]

George Feltenstein on numerous occasions on different podcasts has stated that 4k UHD only "benefits certain films." He really wasn't specific about what films. Based on the releases and upcoming releases from Warner Bros. Discovery it seems their technicolor and color films are films he is referring to. There are no classic Hollywood b&w films that have been released on the UHD format and nothing from what I can gather is in the pipeline. It's kind of disappointing. The two films people will jump to conclusions about are King Kong and Casablanca. From my understanding about the former, elements for Kong are not worthy of the format. And the original photography leaved something to be desired (lots of soft shots). As for Casablanca, it's an anniversary year and there has been nary a word about this film being worked on or something special happening which Warner never resists taking advantage of (until now).

It looks like CC can be a bit of a savior for these old b&w films as they have released 4 b&w films, two from old Hollywood. Fingers crossed.

[Drucker]

There are no classic Hollywood b&w films that have been released on the UHD format

Not sure if you are speaking just about Warner Archive, but of course Citizen Kane has been released!

[tenia]

And It's a Wonderful Life and Mr Smith goes to Washington (I don't know if Anatomy of a Murder is Hollywood Classic B&W, but if so, there's also this one).
I'm not sure if the sparsity of older B&W titles on UHD is for technical reasons or marketing ones : the UHD market, while relatively dynamic in terms of releases, remains overall quite a very small segment of the overall physical market.

[senseabove]

I took FrauBlucher to mean no B&W UHD from WB, since they themselves have only released color movies like Wizard of Oz, Singin' in the Rain, and Giant, though they have licensed B&W films like Citizen Kane, and hopefully/presumably others, to Criterion.

[Roscoe]

I'm still hoping for a UHD of Curtiz/Keighley's ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD at some point. I'd have thought that would be a natural.