Who Gives Good Commentary?

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frankiecrisp
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Indicator

#226 Post by frankiecrisp » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:08 am

MichaelB wrote:It was mixed in 2.0 stereo, as per every other two-person commentary I've overseen.

In my experience, commentaries that use the middle speaker generally only use it (i.e. they're presented in mono, which isn't a good idea for a two-person effort) - I'm not aware of anything being presented in 3.0, which is what you seem to be calling for. Can you cite an example?

I've not heard many two person commentary's. a couple of very good multiple person commentary's are the Blu-rays of Bring me the head of Alfredo Garcia and Ride The high Country both give the affect they all sitting close together not at either end of the room . As I said it was a minor irritant the commentary was excellent. I watched the film(which I had never seen ) without first then again with the commentary .

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mistakaninja
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Re: Indicator

#227 Post by mistakaninja » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:27 pm

If The Limey ever gets a blu release, the Soderbergh & Lem Dobbs commentary should probably be mixed as if they were at opposite ends of the room.

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rapta
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Re: Indicator

#228 Post by rapta » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:28 pm

mistakaninja wrote:If The Limey ever gets a blu release, the Soderbergh & Lem Dobbs commentary should probably be mixed as if they were at opposite ends of the room.
I am aware of that infamous commentary but never thought to pick up the DVD. Perhaps it's because I'm actually not the biggest fan of that film, despite Soderbergh being a personal favourite of mine. Would be worth hearing Dobb's opinion on it, so I may have to track that down.

Talking of Soderbergh, I did ask Indicator a while back if they could get Sex, Lies, & Videotape but it seems Sony decided to release it themselves in the UK (as part of the HMV/Warner Bros 'Premium Collection'). A shame Indicator couldn't snag it as it's a favourite of mine and I'm certain they would've struck some decent extras for it, perhaps even catching Soderbergh's attention.

I went to see Logan Lucky last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. Let's hope the cinematic return of Soderbergh reignites some interest in some of his previous work, and we'll finally get some more of his stuff in HD - I would especially love to see UK Blu-ray editions of Solaris, Traffic, King of the Hill and The Underneath (and possibly even Schizopolis if we're really lucky). I did ask Arrow about those titles a while ago but didn't get a response, and I think I suggested Solaris to Eureka more than once as well.

PS: I think I heard Soderbergh is actually completely re-editing Kafka so I assume that will show up whenever it's ready (possible Criterion?).
Last edited by rapta on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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domino harvey
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Re: Indicator

#229 Post by domino harvey » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:29 pm

He's said Criterion will release Kafka when it's ready. Granted, he said that many, many, many years ago

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Ribs
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Re: Indicator

#230 Post by Ribs » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:31 pm

Sex, Lies, and Videotapes was on the bookshelf photo from a few weeks ago, so is presumably coming from Criterion.

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rapta
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Re: Indicator

#231 Post by rapta » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:29 pm

Ribs wrote:Sex, Lies, and Videotapes was on the bookshelf photo from a few weeks ago, so is presumably coming from Criterion.
Nice, I may wait for that then rather than buy the Sony disc (I assume Criterion will release it in the UK too at some point).

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colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
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Re: Indicator

#232 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:13 pm

rapta wrote:
mistakaninja wrote:If The Limey ever gets a blu release, the Soderbergh & Lem Dobbs commentary should probably be mixed as if they were at opposite ends of the room.
I am aware of that infamous commentary but never thought to pick up the DVD. Perhaps it's because I'm actually not the biggest fan of that film, despite Soderbergh being a personal favourite of mine. Would be worth hearing Dobb's opinion on it, so I may have to track that down.
It has been a while since I listened to it but remember it being a lot of fun, especially as Dobbs gets very annoyed at the way Soderbergh interpreted a few of the scenes in the film (lets just say that Soderbergh has to resort to the "well, I'm the director so I decided to do it this way in the end" argument to put a stop to things), such as the placement of a obvious empty picture frame on the wall of Fonda's hillside home, which he says would have obviously have been noticed straight away!

I kind of agree with his points, but also with Soderbergh's defence that something like the photo frame perhaps wouldn't be noticed in the course of the film. But of course Dobbs is also right when he says he gets so annoyed about those little things because its usually the writer who gets the blame for them in the reviews! (Which apparently includes the one by "that m***** f***** in Variety")

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hearthesilence
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Re: Indicator

#233 Post by hearthesilence » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:19 pm

Highlights from that commentary. Very entertaining indeed.

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knives
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Re: Indicator

#234 Post by knives » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:21 pm

I remember AVC had something similar back in the day on it.

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colinr0380
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Re: Indicator

#235 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:35 pm

mistakaninja wrote:If The Limey ever gets a blu release, the Soderbergh & Lem Dobbs commentary should probably be mixed as if they were at opposite ends of the room.
That did remind me that Soderbergh's commentary for Schizopolis (the one where he aggressively interviews himself) does that, with one side of his conversation coming from the extreme left and the other from the extreme right speaker!

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PfR73
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Re: Who gives good commentary?

#236 Post by PfR73 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:31 pm

I've just finished listening to the commentary for Steve Jobs by Aaron Sorkin and editor Elliot Graham, and it's one of the best commentaries I've ever heard as they deeply discuss how the film evolved from script to finished product and Sorkin asks a lot of interesting questions about the decision-making of the editing process, answered by Graham with real insight.

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Maltic
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#237 Post by Maltic » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:46 pm

Glowingwabbit wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:27 pm
Surprised they wouldn't do these in multi-volume boxsets. I've only seen She Done Him Wrong which was awful enough that I never bothered to track down any more Mae West films. Are any of the others recommended? I do have the last film in a WC Fields boxset that I just haven't gotten to yet.

From the KLSC facebook page:
Coming June 29th!
NINE MAE WEST CLASSICS – First Time on Blu-ray!
NIGHT AFTER NIGHT (1932)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historians Alexandra Heller-Nicholas and Josh Nelson
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
SHE DONE HIM WRONG (1933)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian David Del Valle
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian Kat Ellinger
• Introduction by Turner Classic Movies Host Robert Osborne
• Bonus Cartoon: "She Done Him Right”
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
I’M NO ANGEL (1933)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian Samm Deighan
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
BELLE OF THE NINETIES (1934)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian Samm Deighan
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
GOIN’ TO TOWN (1935)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian Kat Ellinger
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
KLONDIKE ANNIE (1936)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historians Alexandra Heller-Nicholas and Josh Nelson
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
GO WEST YOUNG MAN (1936)
• Audio Commentary by Author/Film Historian Lee Gambin
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
EVERY DAY’S A HOLIDAY (1937)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian Kat Ellinger
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
MY LITTLE CHICKADEE (1940)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historians Alexandra Heller-Nicholas and Josh Nelson
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
Credentialism is overrated, but it's a bit odd how KL calls everyone a film historian these days (Heller-Nicholas is an actual scholar, though).

I've noticed Arrow and Indicator will use journalist/writer/critic for Deighan, Ellinger & co. (and they also don't have them do commentaries beyond horror/exploitation films).

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Dylan
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:28 pm

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#238 Post by Dylan » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:30 pm

The topic of whether or not certain Blu-ray/DVD commentators should be referred to as "film historians" has come up here a few times over the years, and I'm honestly a bit fuzzy on what traditionally qualifies a person to be called a film historian. Is a film historian, traditionally, only a person who works in academia and/or writes scholarly pieces?

beamish14
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#239 Post by beamish14 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:58 pm

Dylan wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:30 pm
The topic of whether or not certain Blu-ray/DVD commentators should be referred to as "film historians" has come up here a few times over the years, and I'm honestly a bit fuzzy on what traditionally qualifies a person to be called a film historian. Is a film historian, traditionally, only a person who works in academia and/or writes scholarly pieces?
That's a great question. To me, the title "film scholar" denotes possessing an advanced degree in cinema/archival studies and having publications under one's belt (not necessarily peer-reviewed, but possibly a biography or some kind of study regarding a filmmaker, a specific artistic medium like animation, or a genre).

Glowingwabbit
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#240 Post by Glowingwabbit » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:15 pm

Maltic wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:46 pm

I've noticed Arrow and Indicator will use journalist/writer/critic for Deighan, Ellinger & co. (and they also don't have them do commentaries beyond horror/exploitation films).
And Deighan and Ellinger are both great when doing those because they clearly have a background and passion for those films, whereas some of their KL commentaries I've heard sound like things they've researched after getting "assigned a topic in class". They aren't the only ones on the KL docket and I shouldn't pick on them because I've enjoyed listening to their podcast and a number of their Arrow commentaries. It's just an issue that became very noticeable when I listened to Ellinger's commentary for Easy Living awhile back and several other titles after that. It's really KLSC where my annoyance is directed and why when a title like Lord Love a Duck comes out and is considered "barebones" I don't even bat an eye since I've run into enough commentaries from KLSC that are just taking up space anyway. However, I'm sure slapping on a commentary track helps sell more discs and I'm gonna keep buying the titles I love regardless so...

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soundchaser
Leave Her to Beaver
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#241 Post by soundchaser » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:17 pm

Imogen Sara Smith remains the best of this rotating block of commentators, not least because she has worked as a media librarian and her expertise appears to run a bit broader (if that isn't an oxymoron) than the horror stuff.

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domino harvey
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#242 Post by domino harvey » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:18 pm

I can’t remember where I saw it but I believe KLSC only pays their commentators $600 per track, so the volume of tracks plus small stable of participants willing to work for that little (or not work all that hard for it, depending) starts to make sense

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FrauBlucher
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#243 Post by FrauBlucher » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:38 pm

Criterion is more specific when labeling their commentators.... besides Historian, they use Scholar, Archivist, Critic, Expert while listing their accomplishments for such

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MichaelB
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Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#244 Post by MichaelB » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:21 pm

Dylan wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:30 pm
The topic of whether or not certain Blu-ray/DVD commentators should be referred to as "film historians" has come up here a few times over the years, and I'm honestly a bit fuzzy on what traditionally qualifies a person to be called a film historian. Is a film historian, traditionally, only a person who works in academia and/or writes scholarly pieces?
I started describing myself as a film historian about fifteen years ago when I was employed full-time by the BFI and spent a lot of time doing properly primary research for the first time - interviewing filmmakers, poring through original archive documents, etc. etc.

I don't have any formal qualifications in film or indeed history (at least beyond an A-level in the latter; my degree is in Business Studies because I had ambitions as a producer back then and thought it would teach me more practical skills), but it seems to me that the term "historian" more accurately described what I was doing than alternatives like "critic", because the primary purpose of all this research was to participate in the construction of a portrait of aspects of British film history that either hadn't been attempted before at all or certainly not in the level of detail that we were delving into.

I'm particularly proud of my work on the BFI's great postwar documentary survey a dozen or so years ago, which was a particularly fascinating project to work on because so little of it had been formally charted besides things like Free Cinema and British Transport Films - I remember spending months of three-hour screening sessions every Tuesday morning watching stuff that none of us had seen before and whose production company catalogue entries were broadly useless (as they were purely factually descriptive whereas we were in quest of films of specifically cinematic interest) - in the process I sat through some of the most boring films I've ever seen in my life, but when we struck gold it justified all the effort.

And I'd also say that when I research a commentary I'm basically treating it the way a historian would - there's a ton of advance research into the specifics of the film itself and the wider cultural/political context that could just as easily fuel an academic essay as an audio commentary. In fact, I suspect it wouldn't take long for me to rework, say, my commentary for Arrow's Blind Chance as a BFI-style 100-page monograph - the word count must be pretty close to that already.

Oh, and when it comes to commentaries, I don't ever take on anything that I don't want to do (the money's simply not worth it) - or anything that I don't feel capable of pulling off to my satisfaction. I was hugely flattered to be asked to record a commentary for Eureka's Mr Vampire, a film I adore, but I can't read or speak Chinese and it seemed to me that it would be impossible to do the film justice without being able to delve into original-language material, so I said no. (And have no regrets, especially as they ultimately went with someone much better qualified - and they also kept their promise to offer me something more appropriate when Viy came up a few months later, and I'm very pleased indeed with how that turned out.)
Last edited by MichaelB on Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#245 Post by MichaelB » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:37 pm

Maltic wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:46 pm
I've noticed Arrow and Indicator will use journalist/writer/critic for Deighan, Ellinger & co. (and they also don't have them do commentaries beyond horror/exploitation films).
This isn't true in Indicator's case. Samm Deighan recorded commentaries for A Dandy in Aspic and Little Murders, Kat Ellinger did the commentaries for Georgy Girl and Zotz! and both tackled Morocco. And both have written booklet essays for non-horror/exploitation titles - The Wild One, Ministry of Fear, The Reckless Moment, The Lady From Shanghai, etc.

In fact, I'm pretty certain it isn't true in Arrow's case either - off the top of my head, Altman's Images and Borowczyk's Story of Sin hardly strike me as horror/exploitation. Granted, you probably could record a commentary for the Borowczyk that adopts an exploitation angle, but they didn't.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#246 Post by hearthesilence » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:43 pm

I'm glad the historians are getting something. Obviously they should, and while $600 feels paltry to me, it's generous compared to other cases. I've talked with some guys who used to produce DVD reissues for the studios back when the market was booming - it sounded fun when they focused on all the good stories, but they claimed they absolutely hated it and I believe the part they hated most was getting participants to do commentaries. Basically, the studios believed commentaries fell under the promotional clauses in their contracts - that is, no additional pay was necessary, they were obligated to promote their work. Of course, it fell to them to convey this to anyone they contacted, and it could be sad and unpleasant. One actor (now deceased but who shall remain nameless) verbally lashed out for what seemed like an eternity when he was told that all he could get as compensation was a DVD player. Another, who communicated through their management, was having major financial issues and tried to get some pay. When the manager was told the same thing ("Iiiiiiiii can give you a DVD player...?"), they just sighed and asked "Does it have a remote?"

What made their jobs more difficult were high profile cases where participants DID get pay. Schwarzenegger notoriously got a boatload of money to do the commentary on Total Recall, and it was an unintentionally hilarious play-by-play. He may have been the first name star to get paid for a commentary, and it set a difficult precedent. Allegedly Rick Moranis was approached about a commentary and he asked to be paid for a research fee. When they balked, Moranis responded with something like, "okay, but you know my memory's not great, so if I have to wing it, don't blame me if I can't remember anything."


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MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#248 Post by MichaelB » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:25 pm

hearthesilence wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:43 pm
I'm glad the historians are getting something. Obviously they should, and while $600 feels paltry to me, it's generous compared to other cases.
Nah, it's paltry. I seriously doubt that I've earned more than minimum wage on any of the commentaries that I've recorded once the hours and hours of preparation are factored in.

I don't know how other people work, but because my commentaries tend to be very scene-specific, I break the film down into 50-60 individual sections and devise a minimum of two or three bullet-point sentences per section - mainly to ensure that I don't run out of material, and it also allows me to pre-plan where I can cover non-scene-specific material (for instance, on Second Run's Black Peter I earmarked much of the big dance scene in the middle to cover pre- and post-production and reception, because what was happening onscreen at the time was pretty much self-explanatory). I also have to plan some of the timing quite carefully in advance - for instance, with Blind Chance I had very little room to manoeuvre at the start because a load of deliberately baffling but narratively/psychologically important scenes (or vignettes) happen in very quick succession. So I'd estimate a minimum of 40 hours' preparatory work (a lot more if I'm working extensively with foreign-language sources, as is often the case), and of course the commentary itself isn't recorded in one immaculately smooth take, however much I'd like to create that impression.

But there is something incredibly satisfying about seeing it all come together - it's a really weird medium, but when it works, it really works.

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Maltic
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#249 Post by Maltic » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:00 pm

Adrian Martin had an article last year about life as an audio commentator and the future of commentaries in an age of streaming. I read it at some point, but it's behind a paywall now, unfortunately.

A veteran of DVD and Blu-ray extras laments the decline of this particular form of cinephile expression, and calls out the current state of play.

He says you'll often have just a few weeks to prepare and record the commentary, from the time you get the assignment.

FWIW, he makes a distinction between what he calls cinephile commentaries and cult commentaries, respectively.

@ Glowingwabbit

Yeah, KL's Sturges and Leisen releases seemed to be split between Deighan and Ellinger, and they didn't do a very good job of it, in my opinion. But they have their fans, so the choice makes sense on KL's part.

@MichaelB

Interesting insights, thanks. And point taken, regarding Deighan/Ellinger on Indicator/Arrow.

Regarding Eureka/MoC's Hong Kong releases, Frank Djeng and Tony Rayns do a great job on those, although I wouldn't mind the odd "outsider's perspective". Dave Kehr did his commentary for Criterion's old Hard Boiled DVD release, but only for specific scenes, while John Woo himself and others took up the remainder of the track. I'm sure it's a greater challenge to do an exhaustive commentary for the entire film, not to mention a film that has the broader cultural significance, like Mr. Vampire.

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MichaelB
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Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#250 Post by MichaelB » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:13 am

I usually get a couple of months minimum and sometimes a fair bit longer (I have a commission for an upcoming Indicator disc that doesn’t even have a release date yet and is unlikely to be out this year). My fastest commentary from commission to delivery was Black Peter, which took about three weeks - Second Run didn’t originally plan to have a commentary, but when I was writing a Miloš Forman obit and complained to Second Run’s Mehelli Modi that I was having to cut the Czech section by more than half, he told me that he was bringing out Black Peter imminently and that he’d gladly make space for anything I ended up cutting, provided I could get it to him quickly enough.

I didn’t initially plan to record a full-length commentary, but in the event I dug up such a surprising amount of stuff about the film itself (as opposed to more general stuff about Forman’s early years) that it seemed like the right thing to do - and being able to handle Czech-language sources (I’m far from fluent, but I did formally study the language once upon a time) is a major bonus with commissions like this as I can be certain that a lot of this stuff hasn’t appeared in English before.

In fact, I doubt I’d have even attempted a commentary for Indicator’s 90° in the Shade without that linguistic advantage because there was virtually nothing of any substance about that film available in English aside from less than three pages of Ann Todd's memoirs - it never opened commercially, had its British premiere on television some fourteen years later (pretty much entirely ignored outside TV listings blurbs), and the 2011 DVD release was effectively its first English-friendly screening in the correct 2.35:1 aspect ratio since its 1965 festival playdates. Whereas it did actually open commercially in Czechoslovakia back in 1965, so there were reviews, interviews and similar stuff to draw on, and indeed the director’s memoirs.

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