Twin Peaks

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Feiereisel
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1051 Post by Feiereisel » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:47 pm

dda1996a wrote:But we had conversations there since the start, Richard Horne was there too. It doesn't make sense that they are all in Audrey's head
What about approaching it the other way, then? They are all real--relatively speaking, anyway--except for the one that Audrey arrives for, which is connected to the strange scenes in which she and her husband discuss whether or not they will leave the house. The "disguised" Eddie Vedder kind of accentuates the unreality of it all, too.

A caveat: I haven't returned to the episodes yet, so I may be forgetting or misremembering something that undercuts what I've just written.
Last edited by Feiereisel on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mpavilion
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1052 Post by mpavilion » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:01 pm

dda1996a wrote:But we had conversations there since the start, Richard Horne was there too. It doesn't make sense that they are all in Audrey's head
That scene was "real," too. The "Audrey-world" scenes would be the booth conversations btw. characters we had never heard of, and never hear from or see again; talking about other characters we also don't know. All of these scenes would also be the ones in which improbable musical acts were playing at the Bang Bang; in the "real" scenes, it's just the expected generic bar music.

Before Pt. 16 aired, one of the theories was that Audrey was in a mental hospital or someplace similar, overhearing conversations and incorporating them into her dream/fantasy/etc. She hears ZZ Top on the radio, and the result is that loopy thing with the MC and the giant "volume" dial... etc.

There are recurring themes in the "booth" convos involving drugs, illness (mental or otherwise), infidelity... I'm sure there are threads that can be unraveled there.

P.S. I'm not saying that I believe Audrey is actually "dreaming," or anything that simple; the "different layers of reality" reading feels closer to the mark to me. But I do believe there is a traceable line through the "random" Roadhouse scenes, and the convo in Part 14 ("Sophie" & "Megan" discussing Billy, Tina, etc.) links these scenes to Audrey/Charlie in a concrete way. Followed, of course, by the big reveal in Pt. 16, when Audrey and Charlie finally make it to the Roadhouse -- you think, "Oh wow, those two really do exist in the same reality" -- and then the rug is pulled from under you, as soon as "Audrey's Theme" is announced.
Last edited by mpavilion on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dda1996a
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1053 Post by dda1996a » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:12 pm

I think we're getting into obtuse theories that people are trying hard to find. Richard Horne was introduced in one of those booths, and we had other characters interact in booths. Once you start to eliminate parts that contradict a theory you're doing something wrong. And it wasn't a disguised Vader, he was using his real name.

mpavilion
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1054 Post by mpavilion » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:20 pm

dda1996a wrote:I think we're getting into obtuse theories that people are trying hard to find. Richard Horne was introduced in one of those booths, and we had other characters interact in booths. Once you start to eliminate parts that contradict a theory you're doing something wrong. And it wasn't a disguised Vader, he was using his real name.
If you really want to go down the rabbit hole with it (though it sounds like you don't!), here is the exhaustive tracking chart that one Twitter user (@ScottyTheP) was keeping/updating throughout the series.

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Feiereisel
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1055 Post by Feiereisel » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:23 pm

dda1996a wrote:I think we're getting into obtuse theories that people are trying hard to find. Richard Horne was introduced in one of those booths, and we had other characters interact in booths. Once you start to eliminate parts that contradict a theory you're doing something wrong. And it wasn't a disguised Vader, he was using his real name.
Now I'm just thinking about a Sith lord in Groucho glasses.

Good point--and it's of a piece with the "The Nine Inch Nails" thing, so all emphasis on my caveat, I guess.

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Finch
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1056 Post by Finch » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:30 pm

Re the Freddie/BOB globe confrontation: it continues to bug me, no matter how much Lynch and Frost may have intended for it to be jarring; I think it is a valid concern that the knowledge of how BOB is dispatched of does rob preceding scenes with Bob of their power, more so scenes from the first two seasons and FWWM when you consider that Judy is the threat in this season, rather than BOB or Mr C. I really do wish they'd written that confrontation in the sheriff station differently. Having the two Coopers face each other might have been too cliched in a way but I even would have preferred a fan theory prior to Part 17 airing where Freddie would have arm-wrestled with Mr C.

Sabrina Sutherland confirmed on Reddit that there was confusion on Showtime's part just over how long the 400+ pages script was going to be in practice, and that while Lynch did add scenes while filming, the statements from disappointed fans that Lynch doubled the length of the series for the sake of it are utter bollocks. Not saying that I don't think The Return has pacing issues (it does, for me), but this was never a case of Lynch and Frost wanting more episodes at some point during the negotiations; Lynch always seems to have been clear in his mind that nine episodes wouldn't have sufficed.

PS.: Sutherland also confirmed that CBS are prepping this season for Blu-Ray at the moment which is what she might be referring to when she said they weren't done yet and needed to deliver scenes for this season.

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1057 Post by mpavilion » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:05 pm

Finch wrote: when you consider that Judy is the threat in this season
See this is the leap that I have trouble with. Gordon says Judy is an "extreme negative force" that the Blue Rose team was trying to track down (I don't remember his exact wording). Not even necessarily an "evil" force, or a menace -- just a "negative force," which may not be the same thing (the universe needs both positive and negative for balance, right?). And Jeffries steams up the figure-8 ("Here's Judy"). Finally, we see "Judy's Diner" in the Carrie-verse.

Beyond those references, we do not know anything about Judy; let alone that Judy = the Experiment; Judy = whatever is possessing Sarah; Judy = anything specific at all.

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Feiereisel
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1058 Post by Feiereisel » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:18 pm

That's why framing the whole show as ongoing dialogue about the impossibility of ever being able to cope with or resolve trauma has been the most resonant interpretation for me. Owing to its inception and evolution--as well as my own imperfect and lapsed knowledge of the show's world--the whole series doesn't neatly conform to that idea, which is why it's occasionally closer to a murky and fitful tug-of-war than it is to a streamlined meaning-making machine, but the ebbs and flows have never been as engrossing as they have during this most recent run.
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mpavilion
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1059 Post by mpavilion » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:24 pm

Feiereisel wrote:That's why framing the whole show as ongoing dialogue about the impossibility of ever being able to cope with or resolve trauma has been the most resonant interpretation for me. Owing to its inception and evolution--as well as my own imperfect and lapsed knowledge of the show's world--the whole series doesn't neatly conform to that idea, which is why it occasionally closer to a murky and fitful tug-of-war than it is to a streamlined meaning-making-machine, but the ebbs and flows have never been as engrossing as they have during this most recent run.
This is excellent

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1060 Post by mpavilion » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:16 pm

A few more thoughts on "Judy" (even though I agree there's likely no clear answer, and this is just spinning wheels):

When Mr. C. visits Jeffries in Pt. 15, Jeffries tells him "you've already met Judy." Assuming that Jeffries isn't bullshitting (which he may be; he then apparently gives Mr. C. fake coordinates, matching Ray's, both leading to the "shock rock") -- what would that mean? Who has Mr. C. and/or Cooper already met, who would qualify as Judy? Probably not the "Experiment" (unless she popped out of the glass box for a drink w/Mr. C. at some point). The "real Dale" has met Sarah in the past; so I guess if Judy is possessing Sarah, that may work out.

Back in Pt. 2, Mr. C. tells Darya that what he "wants" is the strange, inky symbol seen on the playing card. That symbol also appears on Hawk's map, and Hawk says "Don't even ask about that" (or whatever). If we take that to be a symbol for Judy (which feels as plausible as anything else), I take Judy to be something of a local phenomenon -- tied in with the Lodge entrance, the portal to the Fireman, and everything else. After all, Briggs was assigned to hang around Twin Peaks because of its links with the paranormal (and specifically to search for the White Lodge); and before he disappeared, he told Gordon and Cooper that he had discovered the Judy entity. Of course, Jeffries was also aware of Judy, back in the '80s; so that complicates things a bit.

Whatever is possessing Sarah does not seem like an "extreme negative force," or something that would be represented by a fearsome-looking symbol on an ancient map -- more like a minor Lodge spirit, limited in its powers, that takes over a grieving mother and kills a barfly. I also don't think that this "spirit" is the same thing as the Experiment: darting around to NM, NYC, etc. I do acknowledge, however, that the Experiment (as seen in the bomb blast) seems to have little horns, and resembles the inky symbol that Mr. C. is looking for.

At some point, I'll watch the whole thing again, and maybe more will fall into place on a second viewing (...or not).

Btw -- here's an interesting detail I forgot from the original series finale (as summarized at the Twin Peaks Wiki site):
Nearby, Major Briggs and his wife are at a table, happy to be back together. Jacoby arrives with a dazed-looking Sarah Palmer, who delivers a message to Major Briggs, recanting in a garbled voice: "I'm in the Black Lodge with Dale Cooper. I'm waiting for you."

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YnEoS
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1061 Post by YnEoS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:45 pm

In case anyone still thinks there might be some secrets to watching the episodes synced up or overlapped, in a recent AMA with Executive Producer Sabrina Sutherland she confirmed this definitely isn't the correct way to watch the show.

BigMack3000
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1062 Post by BigMack3000 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:58 pm

YnEoS wrote:In case anyone still thinks there might be some secrets to watching the episodes synced up or overlapped, in a recent AMA with Executive Producer Sabrina Sutherland she confirmed this definitely isn't the correct way to watch the show.
Considering Lynch is so against giving definitive answers on his work, wouldn't he also be against definitive ways to not interpret it?

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1063 Post by swo17 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:18 pm

Maybe not if they require you to view it in a compromised fashion.

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YnEoS
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1064 Post by YnEoS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:19 pm

I don't think this is in the same realm, he's always been very outspoken about how his films should be viewed, from not having scene selection on his DVDs, to having screens to help calibrate your TVs before his films, to ranting about people who watch films on iphones, and as I mentioned earlier, giving recommendations for how to view the show. Even if he doesn't want to explain everything about his works, he seems to have a different stance when it comes to viewing the work in best conditions possible to approximate the intended experience.

Sabrina Sutherland has been working with Lynch for quite a long time, and if you look at other questions in the AMA anytime people ask for answers about what happened in the series, she usually was very ambiguous not revealing anything either way, and there were a lot of topics she knew she wasn't allowed to say anything about, but whenever the subject of syncing episodes came up, she seemed okay shooting them down pretty definitively. Of course she doesn't know all of Lynch's secrets so I suppose there's always the chance he feels differently about this, but to me the evidence strongly points against this being intentional.

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1065 Post by BigMack3000 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:36 am

Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding the intentions of synching the episodes. Throughout the series, there was quite a bit of playing with time, and some scenes seemed to be taking place concurrently. The moment Coop meets Carrie/walks through the furnace door, there are too many moments that line up for there not to be any intent. I just see synching the episodes as a way of piecing together part of the puzzle. The way you might watch the chronological version of Memento. I don't believe it should replace how you view the show, nor do I think anyone is really championing that stance, but if it helps find some deeper meaning I have no problem with it. We know this is a show of multiple realities(dimensions?). Why is it a stretch to say there are scenes that overlap with each other?

dda1996a
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1066 Post by dda1996a » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:42 am

Because that's not what you are saying. Synching means Lynch staged, shot and edited those episodes consciously with the intent to have meaning derived from people sitting down and synching episodes after the fact. Having scenes overlap, be blocked similarly or have similar meanings within the shot is completely different. I find the first ridiculous (like the abundance of theories regarding The Shining), while the later is usually inherent in the skill of the best of directors.

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1067 Post by BigMack3000 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:09 am

I don't see why these have to be mutually exclusive. Even back in episode 15(?) there seemed a clear parallel between Cooper crawling for the socket and that woman crawling across the floor in the roadhouse. I don't see the sin in overlaying them to see how Lynch framed and edited them similarly.

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1068 Post by dda1996a » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:16 am

To synch them in an academic way, as to study the way he frames them (I would say a side by side comparison is more apt) is different then trying to find meaning from two images overlaid on top of each other.

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1069 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:17 am

I don't believe anyone is implying there's an inherent sin to that - just that Lynch wouldn't have made them with the intention of the viewer having to go to the effort to overlay them. They should work on their own, and they do - and the fact that people were able to make the mental connection between so many moments with regard to their symmetrical quality means that he was able to communicate that without something gimmicky like actually putting them over-top or side-by-side with one another.

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1070 Post by dda1996a » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:44 pm

I never implied there was anything wrong, I just said that I don't think overlaying episodes is going to give us any answers. And I meant side by side for a video essay on say YouTube, never on a given episode (and Lynch isn't De Palma)

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1071 Post by Cde. » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:46 pm


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Re: Twin Peaks

#1072 Post by sir_luke » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:49 pm

I think it's painfully obvious that the episodes weren't meant to be actually layered over one another. I think it's all been taken too literally. As someone who LOVES recursive, cyclical, ambiguous narratives but occasionally gets overwhelmed trying to connect the dots (and sometimes misses the more minor details) I'm really glad that SOMEONE did later them, and the Medium post linked to earlier really helped me appreciate the finale more thoroughly. I don't know that I would have made all the connections without having that "layered" perspective. It is truly amazing how nicely things line up in the narrative, but it's not as tidy as some would have us believe actually watching the episodes together. We got some cool layered screencaps out of it, though!

Also, FYI, Lynch just announced on Twitter that the third season is out on Blu/DVD December 5th.

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1073 Post by swo17 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:53 pm

Not to be labeled a "syncer" but I do think it's possible that the episodes were edited to sync in places, without it ever being intended that they actually be watched this way. I do silly little things like this sometimes with my own personal projects, mostly just to amuse myself and impose order on things.

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Finch
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Re: Twin Peaks

#1074 Post by Finch » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:59 pm

I like that cover. Wish I could re-watch Part 8 on the biggest screen possible! Maybe some time down the road, when we move, I'll get a projector.

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Re: Twin Peaks

#1075 Post by BigMack3000 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:30 pm

Now even the blu-ray cover is overlaying images? Theory confirmed?! I kid. I kid.

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