Game of Thrones

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mfunk9786
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Re: Game of Thrones

#401 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon May 13, 2019 4:00 pm

Loved the last two weeks, for the record. Think the ship has been righted despite completely fumbling the white walker/winter plot, and genuinely looking forward to what happens from here. Every tone deaf Dany moment throughout the history of the show now looks fantastically executed in hindsight, especially when viewed through the fracturing lens of her own ego.

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movielocke
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am

Re: Game of Thrones

#402 Post by movielocke » Mon May 13, 2019 4:16 pm

domino harvey wrote:Spoiler for DarkImbecile’s last post and also (I think) book four
SpoilerShow
I mean, Euron on the show has consistently been the worst/least-interesting character, so it was kind of a fitting end for someone no one ever liked. Almost anything other what we got for his end would have been better, but I suspect they were trying to highlight his inferiority complex when it comes to Jaime, which the show never really exploited like it could. At least book Euron is weird as hell and has that Dragon Horn (which of course never came into play in the show)
SpoilerShow
I’ve always thought that horn was a big fucking red herring, because of it works, Cersei becomes irrelevant and euron/Victarian become the most powerful force in Westeros. There’s no real indication the books are going that direction, but it’s possible:

The books could result in Victorian getting one dragon, but then his stupidity or ineptness results in the dragon dying before they get it back to Westeros (like Khal drogo, hah!). If so, the show would simplify and adapt the Greyjoy dragon death to a more active storyline with Euron killing one dragon at this much later point to maximally motivate dany (and also lets Jon ride the surplus dragon in the interim).

The bigger problem with the books is powering up the Greyjoy’s in books 4-5 with a mammoth cast with mumbly motivations but capable of shifting power dynamics of the other factions multiple times to ultimately little impact other than facilitating some transportation bottlenecks while grossly expanding plot complications.

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domino harvey
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Re: Game of Thrones

#403 Post by domino harvey » Mon May 13, 2019 4:23 pm

The mess of the last two books really show more than anything that Martin was perfectly capable of clouding and fumbling his own creation, despite the aspersions cast by those laying the blame of all the series' recent ills on the show runners. Plus Cersei's destruction of the sept, probably the best moment in the entire series, was revealed to be wholly a creation of D&D, so even if they do shoulder some finger-wagging, they deserve some praise as well (even if they did rub out Ser Pounce off-screen!)

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movielocke
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am

Re: Game of Thrones

#404 Post by movielocke » Mon May 13, 2019 4:31 pm

domino harvey wrote:The mess of the last two books really show more than anything that Martin was perfectly capable of clouding and fumbling his own creation, despite the aspersions cast by those laying the blame of all the series' recent ills on the show runners. Plus Cersei's destruction of the sept, probably the best moment in the entire series, was revealed to be wholly a creation of D&D, so even if they do shoulder some finger-wagging, they deserve some praise as well (even if they did rub out Ser Pounce off-screen!)
Yeah I read the first three books almost nineteen years ago, all the problems with the latter seasons of the show originate in the bad books that have come after. The show runners fixed a lot by axing worthless subplots (dorne, Quentin, (f)Aegon, (f)Arya) and combining their best attributes into the main cast, but they have also effectively illustrated where the books are going to struggle in the future. When people complain about teleporting people/armies it just means that Martin is going to expand every one of those teleporting sections with at least two hundred pages of wheel spinning filler and directionless infighting.

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YnEoS
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Re: Game of Thrones

#405 Post by YnEoS » Mon May 13, 2019 5:04 pm

I thought this twitter thread had an interesting theory about why some people are disappointed in the writing. The main point is basically that GRRM writes more based on what characters would do in a specific situation, which creates more believable actions, but he often gets lost in building up interesting people and plot lines without a clear way to tie it all together. He has some idea of where its going, but a lot of future plot threads have to remain flexible to suit what makes sense for the characters in the moment. The alternate style of plotting everything out carefully first, can get to the ending more efficiently with good big moments, but at the cost characters feeling moved around from point A to B and not always being believable. Obviously everyone does a bit of both, but since the show runners committed to finishing the series efficiently all the character changes aren't quite as smooth as we're used to in the earlier seasons.

I haven't read the book yet, but it certainly matches some of the things I've heard. Some of my favorite moments I've heard were original to the show, and it doesn't sound like the books are perfect, but I do think there has been a shift since they've lost the source material. Its not necessarily that GRRM has a better way to wrap the story up, but just that keeping the story from being too bloated comes at a cost in other areas, and its certainly disruptive when the characters that have been slowly developing over time suddenly get dragged by the script towards the major moments on the way to the finale.

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Noiretirc
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Re: Game of Thrones

#406 Post by Noiretirc » Mon May 13, 2019 9:23 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:10 pm
Believe the hype. I just spent the last couple days marathoning all three seasons and I don't think I've ever watched any TV series quite as addictive as this one-- Oz and the Wire come close, and all three shows share tendencies: great actors, juicy scripts, and an unsureness of the immediate future. I completely understand why so many people watch the series and then go out and read the books, because this series has the most forward momentum of any TV show I can name. That vast cast of characters and mountains of plot means there's no wasted time, everything is happening and unlike in similarly busy soap-style shows, it is important. I believe it's that sense of all lean, no fat which gives it all such a cinematic feel. It really did feel like I just watched a thirty hour movie-- and what a movie!

It's nice to finally watch one of those shows everyone loves and love it right back
Well, I think I'll watch the first 31 hours at least. But I fully expect Season 7/8 to remind me of the ending of Return Of The King.

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Slaphappy
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Re: Game of Thrones

#407 Post by Slaphappy » Tue May 14, 2019 9:42 am

YnEoS wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:04 pm
I thought this twitter thread had an interesting theory about why some people are disappointed in the writing. The main point is basically that GRRM writes more based on what characters would do in a specific situation, which creates more believable actions, but he often gets lost in building up interesting people and plot lines without a clear way to tie it all together. He has some idea of where its going, but a lot of future plot threads have to remain flexible to suit what makes sense for the characters in the moment. The alternate style of plotting everything out carefully first, can get to the ending more efficiently with good big moments, but at the cost characters feeling moved around from point A to B and not always being believable. Obviously everyone does a bit of both, but since the show runners committed to finishing the series efficiently all the character changes aren't quite as smooth as we're used to in the earlier seasons.
Seems plausible. For few seasons I've been thinking, that the characters have gotten flatter and flatter while there's less directionless filler stuff.

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Magic Hate Ball
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Re: Game of Thrones

#408 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Tue May 14, 2019 1:38 pm

The handling of the Daenerys arc has been pretty clumsy, but it's also been solidly set up. From the very beginning, her motivation to be a ruler has been that she thinks it's her destiny, and that it's owed to her, which are two terrible reasons to rule. She's pretty consistently sucked as a ruler - her only real motivation, besides getting what's hers, has been to end slavery, which is nice but, as was (laboriously) laid out by her bumblings in Meereen, wanting to End A Bad Thing isn't enough to be a great ruler. The show has depicted her as being increasingly impotent as she ascends in power, and that impotence is translated into fury. We all wanted her to be a successful badass, but she didn't learn anything along the way, because "power" and "destiny" are lousy teaching tools.

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John Cope
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Re: Game of Thrones

#409 Post by John Cope » Sat May 18, 2019 8:34 pm

As we prepare for the final blow to land, an interesting and different take on all this.

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tenia
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Re: Game of Thrones

#410 Post by tenia » Sun May 19, 2019 5:35 am

It was interesting and different at first, but in the end, it's just another way of writing about "how Benioff and Weiss are bad writers / showrunners and this 8th season is poorly written".
For instance, we can see the decision as not "her tyrannical genes turning on", but a strategic decision that actually makes sense.

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John Cope
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Re: Game of Thrones

#411 Post by John Cope » Sun May 19, 2019 2:09 pm

I think that probably gives the show far too much credit but I guess we'll see tonight.

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