ESPN 30 for 30

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flyonthewall2983
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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#201 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:58 am

I imagine that'll be the main narrative spine, but I've got to think it'll somehow encompass the whole history of Jordan's time in the NBA up to that point.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#202 Post by hearthesilence » Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:25 pm

I actually remember that run, at least from the first championship games on. It'll be interesting to see how they will (or will not) make this interesting for non-basketball fans, because outside of what happened to Jordan's father, there's not a lot of material that would seem to be compelling to anyone else.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#203 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:10 pm

I imagine more of the drama will be centered around Dennis Rodman, who went into his full-on rock star mode during this time, becoming a media darling and doing things as daring as showing up on WCW TV wrestling on a night he was supposed to be at practice. It's been said that he treated his time at the Bulls as strictly professional and made no bones about not wanting to make any friends on the team (perhaps his heart still with the Pistons teams of the late 80's-early 90's where he began to shine as a player), so on top of everything else that'll make for some interesting drama that could pull in outsiders.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#204 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:19 pm

Watched 42 to 1 and the Deion Sanders thing. The former was nice, but maybe too short as I would have liked to have seen more on the Vegas angle to it all which is where I thought it was going. The highlight for me was seeing the clips of Charley Steiner on SportsCenter going from joking that the fight would probably not last as long as his report on it, to saying the defeat might be the greatest upset in sports history.

The Sanders piece is kind of interesting in terms of the logistics and the bickering among him and the Braves for playing two sports in one day, but is mostly him showboating and ego-stroking. It's not the worst entry in this series, but it's certainly down there. Carl Lewis is still the biggest egomaniac in any of these films.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#205 Post by Polybius » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:31 am

Jim Gray nearly shuddering with rage at the terrible slight Deion performed on The Great Tim McCarver might be the funniest thing I've witnessed in 2019.

That was not a good moment for American sports journalism. Scads of people like Costas and Lupica making up comically absurd rationales for why that was deemed to be so terrible (my favorite was that McCarver could have been electrocuted) rather than just admit the truth, which was that they hated Sanders and resented him going after their homey, McCarver.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#206 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:25 am

Wasn't a good look for either of them. I actually rewatched You Don't Know Bo after because Bo Jackson comes off better, even in the clips of his press conferences during his time in both baseball and football where he seems aloof yet had a tiny bit of a much-earned arrogance because of his abilities.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#207 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:15 pm

New, extended trailer for The Last Dance, premiering in June 2020.

The one on Dennis Rodman had it's moments but some of the post-production was far too overblown for a very emotional saga as his somehow has continued to be.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#208 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:22 pm

The Last Dance has been moved up to premiere on April 19th

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#209 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:36 am

hearthesilence wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:25 pm
I actually remember that run, at least from the first championship games on. It'll be interesting to see how they will (or will not) make this interesting for non-basketball fans, because outside of what happened to Jordan's father, there's not a lot of material that would seem to be compelling to anyone else.
Going by the first two episodes there's quite a bit of focus on the conflict between Jordan (the forever competitive alpha male), Pippen (the slightly underappreciated hard-working right hand) and the suits. There's a lot more going on that will surely unfold as this goes on, but as I expected it also spent a lot of time on the backstory to how they ended up becoming such a monster team. And I can tell it will take it's time in telling that story leading up to the final episodes, which will likely benefit the overall narrative.

The pleasure for me watching this, as someone who isn't imbued with the historic minutiae maybe even more casual fans are, is seeing how the building blocks were assembled.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#210 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:56 am

flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:36 am
hearthesilence wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:25 pm
I actually remember that run, at least from the first championship games on. It'll be interesting to see how they will (or will not) make this interesting for non-basketball fans, because outside of what happened to Jordan's father, there's not a lot of material that would seem to be compelling to anyone else.
Going by the first two episodes there's quite a bit of focus on the conflict between Jordan (the forever competitive alpha male), Pippen (the slightly underappreciated hard-working right hand) and the suits. There's a lot more going on that will surely unfold as this goes on, but as I expected it also spent a lot of time on the backstory to how they ended up becoming such a monster team. And I can tell it will take it's time in telling that story leading up to the final episodes, which will likely benefit the overall narrative.

The pleasure for me watching this, as someone who isn't imbued with the historic minutiae maybe even more casual fans are, is seeing how the building blocks were assembled.
If memory serves, after Jordan joined them, the key moves were:

• getting rookies Pippen and Grant (after losing Oakley, which was big gamble because he was a great rebounder)
• getting veteran Bill Cartwright (aging but still good)
• firing Doug Collins and promoting Phil Jackson who brought in the triangle offense

When double teaming Jordan was no longer an effective way to shut them down, they became virtually unstoppable.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#211 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:53 am

Next week's episode is about Rodman, which will make a good contrast going between the main spine and the blood feud the Bulls had with the Pistons.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#212 Post by Lemmy Caution » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:26 am

hearthesilence wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:56 am
Pippen (the slightly underappreciated hard-working right hand) and the suits.
• getting rookies Pippen and Grant
Pippen was really the key, because he evolved into such a terrific all-around player. It was interesting to observe Pip improving and toughening up and borrowing some of MJ's willpower. There were a couple playoff years where the Pistons just roughed up Pip to no end. I think he got a concussion one game.

There's a story from Pippen's 1st or 2nd year, where MJ tells Pip to attack the basket at a 45 degree lean-in angle so that the defensive contact will knock him upright so that he can still finish the shot. And Pippen thought to himself: I can't do that shit. This guy is crazy.

MJ and Pip must have been the greatest pair of wing defenders ever.
And the nice thing was that both could defend the opposing PG as well.
Which later became something of a Pip specialty.

Without Pip becoming a great player, Jordan doesn't get 6 championships in 6 appearances.
Ho Grant was solid but replaceable. Pip wasn't.
• getting veteran Bill Cartwright (aging but still good)
(after losing Oakley, which was big gamble because he was a great rebounder)
I was thinking Cartwright was more early prime. But he was 31 when he came to the Bulls. He had missed 2 Knick years with a bad foot, so I guess it seemed like he was there a shorter time since he missed that time. Mr. Bill had shown he was recovered for 2 years prior to the trade.

The Oak trade was also a gamble because he was Jordan's good bud and an enforcer who always had MJ's back. But Jerry Krause decided CHI needed size and rim protection down low. And Mr. Bill had pretty vicious elbows. The trade of course irritated Jordan and was a key early part of MJ's beef with the front office.
• firing Doug Collins and promoting Phil Jackson who brought in the triangle offense
Phil inherited a few basketball savants in Tex Winter and Johnny Bach to help coach the team. So give Krause and Doug Collins some credit for Jackson's success.
Last edited by Lemmy Caution on Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#213 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:25 am

Lemmy Caution wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:26 am
Phil inherited a few basketball savants in Tex Winter and Johnny Bach to help coach the team. So give Krause and Doug Collins some credit for Jackson's success.
Absolutely. Under Collins, they inched closer and closer to the finals, so I think it was stunning when he was fired, even if internal politics meant it wasn't a surprise.

Found this from an LA Times article online:

Collins, who led the Chicago Bulls into the Eastern Conference finals last season for their best postseason showing in 14 years, unexpectedly was fired as coach Thursday.

“We know this will be an unpopular decision, but we truly believe this will be in the best interests of all parties,” team owner Jerry Reinsdorf said in a statement released by the club.

Collins, who replaced Stan Albeck before the 1986-87 season, had one year remaining on his contract. He had a 137-109 record in regular-season play and was 13-17 in the playoffs, highlighted by this season’s run that ended with a loss to eventual champion Detroit.

It was only the third time in team history, and the first since 1975, that the Bulls had gotten as far as the conference finals.

“We appreciate the effort Doug has given over the past three years; however, through the years, philosophical differences between management and Doug, over the direction the club was going, grew to a point where the move was required,” Reinsdorf said.


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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#214 Post by Lemmy Caution » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:45 am

Instead of some credit, I should have written significant credit.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#215 Post by Andre Jurieu » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:09 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:26 am
There's a story from Pippen's 1st or 2nd year, where MJ tells Pip to attack the basket at a 45 degree lean-in angle so that the defensive contact will knock him upright so that he can still finish the shot. And Pippen thought to himself: I can't do that shit. This guy is crazy.
I think I've mentioned this in the past on this forum, but I still find this story to be strange. The idea of leaning into the defender so that the contact will re-balance you is something that was taught to me very early in my development as an athlete (like when the Bulls were initially turning things around), and it was taught to me by a fairly old (and old-school) coach, who likely wasn't keeping up with the latest developments in basketball-athlete techniques. It's something that I've also taught to almost all of the athletes I've coached over the years, before I ever heard this story. I find it odd that Pippen was so shocked and overwhelmed by the concept considering he's an amazingly high-level athlete. It makes me wonder how poor the quality of the coaching was while Pippen was developing as an athlete. Maybe Dean Smith's UNC coaching-staff really was a lot better than the staff at Central Arkansas.

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It's in the Details

#216 Post by Lemmy Caution » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:42 am

The concept of making contact with the defender and not just letting the defender knock you off balance is old and well-known. It's the extent and degree of attack Jordan advocated. Attacking the hoop at a 45 degree body angle is not easy to do, let alone do and maintain control, and then to expect to be hammered vertical and make a shot is pretty high level.

Not many attack the rim at such a great angle. Kobe sometimes did. The NBA was a lot more physical in the late 80's and 90's. There were no flagrant fouls. You were cheap-shotted, you got up and punched somebody, or the enforcer on your team shoved the guy who delivered a hard foul. Or everybody got together and milled around angry. When McHale clotheslined Rambis in the Finals, Worthy kept Rambis from attacking McHale, and when they got it all under control it was just a common foul on McHale. Play on.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#217 Post by Lemmy Caution » Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:12 pm

Those who are old enough might recall that in the late 80's many would say that Jordan was a great scorer, but not a winner and couldn't win with his style. They seemed to think he was destined for a Dominique Wilkins career ...
Another theory was that the Scoring Leader never wins a title.
(I think post-Mikan, only Kareem did it before Jordan, and Shaq since).

Ron Harper was dynamic his first few years in the league - averaged nearly 23 / 5 /5 with 2.5 steals his rook season -- and was one of the first anointed as the Next Jordan. Of course, this was before Jordan fully became Jordan and went through the stratosphere. And then Harper blew out his knee and toiled away on the LA Clippers. Harp averaged over 19 Pts his first 9 seasons, but then at 31 was willing to be a role player on the Bulls. A versatile player with smarts. And Phil always like having a Big PG.

The 2nd 3-peat featured an impressive defensive starting lineup of:
Harper - Jordan - Pip - Rod Man - Longley (a very large human)

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#218 Post by hearthesilence » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:56 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:12 pm
Those who are old enough might recall that in the late 80's many would say that Jordan was a great scorer, but not a winner and couldn't win with his style. They seemed to think he was destined for a Dominique Wilkins career ...
Another theory was that the Scoring Leader never wins a title.
(I think post-Mikan, only Kareem did it before Jordan, and Shaq since).

The 2nd 3-peat featured an impressive defensive starting lineup of:
Harper - Jordan - Pip - Rod Man - Longley (a very large human)
I definitely recall people saying Jordan was originally a ball hog (check out those ridiculous stats before the first title). Another thing I remember: Rodman was arguably just as popular as Jordan when he joined the team thanks to his eccentric personality. His Bulls jerseys were initially outselling Jordan's (though it's probably not a fair comparison since Jordan's was essentially an "old" product by that point).

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#219 Post by Lemmy Caution » Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:49 pm

Jordan's rookie year, he led the Bulls in scoring, rebounding, assists, steals, minutes, FTA & FT%, tied for 2nd in blocks.

But he was on a weak team and not a lot of folks got a chance to see him play much that year. He generated tons of buzz, and everyone was excited to see what he could do his sophomore year, but then he broke his foot midway through Game 3. So he became a mystery man. How good was he? Was he durable? The Bulls wanted to sit the season out, but MJ insisted on returning late season. Was on a minutes restriction and rusty and the Bulls lost the first 5 games MJ was back and folks were saying he was hurting the team and risking reinjury. Then he got back in the groove, CHI finished 6-4 and made the playoffs. Which was his goal. And against a great Celtics team with size and defensive chops, Jordan scored 49 in G1 and then a record 63 in an amazing OT performance, where Jordan was so incredible that Larry Bird got religion.

And that was the signal that Jordan was a special player.
Then in his 3rd year (but just 2nd full year of playing, MJ averaged 37.1 and was a huge phenomena.

I think people often overlook what a great defender Jordan was. 9 times All-Defensive 1st team. 3 times Steals Leader. A lot of big scorers slack on the other end. Jordan was a 2-way player who locked in every play.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#220 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Fri May 01, 2020 7:16 am

Ken Burns is not a fan. I think he has some good points, but then again every documentary doesn't have to adhere to a journalistic approach. This is being told largely from the inside out, from the Bulls' perspective with Michael as the center of attention as he was from the time he joined the team.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#221 Post by hearthesilence » Fri May 01, 2020 1:51 pm

He makes a good point though. This kind of thing has been egregious with documentary profiles over the past decade, and there's been a glut of puff pieces and hagiographies. But to be brutally honest, Burns's documentaries are often plagued with their own problems, and with Jazz a lot of that was rooted in his collaboration with Wynton Marsalis, an excellent player but a dubious historian. It may have been watchable thanks to seemingly unlimited resources for clip licensing, but it was a pretty terrible and reactionary overview.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#222 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Fri May 01, 2020 2:24 pm

hearthesilence wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 1:51 pm
This kind of thing has been egregious with documentary profiles over the past decade, and there's been a glut of puff pieces and hagiographies.
This has existed in sports docs for almost as long as there have been sports on film and television. The difference in the last 10 years or so, 30 For 30 set a new level in doing them. Granted, some of the earliest ones are less reverential and take on more sociological meaning. In this particular case, I'm not sure such points of view are necessary.

Where this gets sticky is the fact that Michael Jordan essentially had final say about what went into this, and it was produced by his Jump 23 company. On one hand that is problematic as someone who appreciates documentaries told through the singular vision of it's director. On the other if this was the only way to get him to participate in the definitive document of an important chapter in sports history, it's kind of worth it. Plus it's no less valid a method of storytelling if it is done so more through his perspective than that of what someone like Burns does.

I have problems with this series, largely to do with the time-jumping gimmick offsetting the pace at times (especially in the last two episodes). But I kind of knew all of this which Burns criticizes would be part of the deal.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#223 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon May 04, 2020 11:12 am

Last night's episodes covered the pop culture phenomenon Jordan became, and the beginnings of the fallout from his gambling habit made public. It had a no-punches-pulled feel to it, especially in regards to the section relating to his politics and the comment that Republicans buy sneakers too. It had the feel but far be it from me to say whether or not they went deep enough so far on his personal issues and how they spilled over into his career. Especially from episode 6 I get the feeling part of the justification for his retirement in 93 (which will be covered next week) was the sheer exhaustion he put into making the Bulls three-time champions which is understandable.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#224 Post by hearthesilence » Mon May 04, 2020 12:45 pm

flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 11:12 am
Especially from episode 6 I get the feeling part of the justification for his retirement in 93 (which will be covered next week) was the sheer exhaustion he put into making the Bulls three-time champions which is understandable.
I actually remember this being a common theory at the time, and it was mentioned over and over again in the local sports press. Tribune reporter Sam Smith in particular (who wrote a best-selling book on Jordan that was published around then) said it was no surprise and talked about how wiped out Jordan was when he shadowed him after practice.

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Re: ESPN 30 for 30

#225 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon May 04, 2020 4:19 pm

They talk about the book, specifically the more controversial passages about how tyrannical Jordan could be to other teammates, and the ever-present animus towards the front office. I'm coming away with this with some respect for Jerry Krause. There's a clip of an interview with him in a locker room after they won their 2nd championship, and the way it's framed all he says is kudos towards the people under and around him in the front office. It is almost a tribal commitment to the Bulls as a corporate entity rather than a sports franchise. The stuff in it concerning Jordan's endorsement deals were interesting in for who was not interviewed more than who was. Sonny Vaccaro's absence isn't much a surprise, but Phil Knight's was. I think they only talked to one guy from Nike.

Even less surprised that Craig Hodges is ignored here. I read this article on him last year and was fascinated at how he tried to get his teammates to take on social causes, and the frosty reception he got back, not just from his team but the league as a whole.

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