Game of Thrones

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mfunk9786
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Re: Game of Thrones

#401 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon May 13, 2019 4:00 pm

Loved the last two weeks, for the record. Think the ship has been righted despite completely fumbling the white walker/winter plot, and genuinely looking forward to what happens from here. Every tone deaf Dany moment throughout the history of the show now looks fantastically executed in hindsight, especially when viewed through the fracturing lens of her own ego.

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movielocke
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Re: Game of Thrones

#402 Post by movielocke » Mon May 13, 2019 4:16 pm

domino harvey wrote:Spoiler for DarkImbecile’s last post and also (I think) book four
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I mean, Euron on the show has consistently been the worst/least-interesting character, so it was kind of a fitting end for someone no one ever liked. Almost anything other what we got for his end would have been better, but I suspect they were trying to highlight his inferiority complex when it comes to Jaime, which the show never really exploited like it could. At least book Euron is weird as hell and has that Dragon Horn (which of course never came into play in the show)
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I’ve always thought that horn was a big fucking red herring, because of it works, Cersei becomes irrelevant and euron/Victarian become the most powerful force in Westeros. There’s no real indication the books are going that direction, but it’s possible:

The books could result in Victorian getting one dragon, but then his stupidity or ineptness results in the dragon dying before they get it back to Westeros (like Khal drogo, hah!). If so, the show would simplify and adapt the Greyjoy dragon death to a more active storyline with Euron killing one dragon at this much later point to maximally motivate dany (and also lets Jon ride the surplus dragon in the interim).

The bigger problem with the books is powering up the Greyjoy’s in books 4-5 with a mammoth cast with mumbly motivations but capable of shifting power dynamics of the other factions multiple times to ultimately little impact other than facilitating some transportation bottlenecks while grossly expanding plot complications.

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domino harvey
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Re: Game of Thrones

#403 Post by domino harvey » Mon May 13, 2019 4:23 pm

The mess of the last two books really show more than anything that Martin was perfectly capable of clouding and fumbling his own creation, despite the aspersions cast by those laying the blame of all the series' recent ills on the show runners. Plus Cersei's destruction of the sept, probably the best moment in the entire series, was revealed to be wholly a creation of D&D, so even if they do shoulder some finger-wagging, they deserve some praise as well (even if they did rub out Ser Pounce off-screen!)

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movielocke
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Re: Game of Thrones

#404 Post by movielocke » Mon May 13, 2019 4:31 pm

domino harvey wrote:The mess of the last two books really show more than anything that Martin was perfectly capable of clouding and fumbling his own creation, despite the aspersions cast by those laying the blame of all the series' recent ills on the show runners. Plus Cersei's destruction of the sept, probably the best moment in the entire series, was revealed to be wholly a creation of D&D, so even if they do shoulder some finger-wagging, they deserve some praise as well (even if they did rub out Ser Pounce off-screen!)
Yeah I read the first three books almost nineteen years ago, all the problems with the latter seasons of the show originate in the bad books that have come after. The show runners fixed a lot by axing worthless subplots (dorne, Quentin, (f)Aegon, (f)Arya) and combining their best attributes into the main cast, but they have also effectively illustrated where the books are going to struggle in the future. When people complain about teleporting people/armies it just means that Martin is going to expand every one of those teleporting sections with at least two hundred pages of wheel spinning filler and directionless infighting.

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YnEoS
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Re: Game of Thrones

#405 Post by YnEoS » Mon May 13, 2019 5:04 pm

I thought this twitter thread had an interesting theory about why some people are disappointed in the writing. The main point is basically that GRRM writes more based on what characters would do in a specific situation, which creates more believable actions, but he often gets lost in building up interesting people and plot lines without a clear way to tie it all together. He has some idea of where its going, but a lot of future plot threads have to remain flexible to suit what makes sense for the characters in the moment. The alternate style of plotting everything out carefully first, can get to the ending more efficiently with good big moments, but at the cost characters feeling moved around from point A to B and not always being believable. Obviously everyone does a bit of both, but since the show runners committed to finishing the series efficiently all the character changes aren't quite as smooth as we're used to in the earlier seasons.

I haven't read the book yet, but it certainly matches some of the things I've heard. Some of my favorite moments I've heard were original to the show, and it doesn't sound like the books are perfect, but I do think there has been a shift since they've lost the source material. Its not necessarily that GRRM has a better way to wrap the story up, but just that keeping the story from being too bloated comes at a cost in other areas, and its certainly disruptive when the characters that have been slowly developing over time suddenly get dragged by the script towards the major moments on the way to the finale.

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Re: Game of Thrones

#406 Post by Noiretirc » Mon May 13, 2019 9:23 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:10 pm
Believe the hype. I just spent the last couple days marathoning all three seasons and I don't think I've ever watched any TV series quite as addictive as this one-- Oz and the Wire come close, and all three shows share tendencies: great actors, juicy scripts, and an unsureness of the immediate future. I completely understand why so many people watch the series and then go out and read the books, because this series has the most forward momentum of any TV show I can name. That vast cast of characters and mountains of plot means there's no wasted time, everything is happening and unlike in similarly busy soap-style shows, it is important. I believe it's that sense of all lean, no fat which gives it all such a cinematic feel. It really did feel like I just watched a thirty hour movie-- and what a movie!

It's nice to finally watch one of those shows everyone loves and love it right back
Well, I think I'll watch the first 31 hours at least. But I fully expect Season 7/8 to remind me of the ending of Return Of The King.

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Slaphappy
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Re: Game of Thrones

#407 Post by Slaphappy » Tue May 14, 2019 9:42 am

YnEoS wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:04 pm
I thought this twitter thread had an interesting theory about why some people are disappointed in the writing. The main point is basically that GRRM writes more based on what characters would do in a specific situation, which creates more believable actions, but he often gets lost in building up interesting people and plot lines without a clear way to tie it all together. He has some idea of where its going, but a lot of future plot threads have to remain flexible to suit what makes sense for the characters in the moment. The alternate style of plotting everything out carefully first, can get to the ending more efficiently with good big moments, but at the cost characters feeling moved around from point A to B and not always being believable. Obviously everyone does a bit of both, but since the show runners committed to finishing the series efficiently all the character changes aren't quite as smooth as we're used to in the earlier seasons.
Seems plausible. For few seasons I've been thinking, that the characters have gotten flatter and flatter while there's less directionless filler stuff.

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Re: Game of Thrones

#408 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Tue May 14, 2019 1:38 pm

The handling of the Daenerys arc has been pretty clumsy, but it's also been solidly set up. From the very beginning, her motivation to be a ruler has been that she thinks it's her destiny, and that it's owed to her, which are two terrible reasons to rule. She's pretty consistently sucked as a ruler - her only real motivation, besides getting what's hers, has been to end slavery, which is nice but, as was (laboriously) laid out by her bumblings in Meereen, wanting to End A Bad Thing isn't enough to be a great ruler. The show has depicted her as being increasingly impotent as she ascends in power, and that impotence is translated into fury. We all wanted her to be a successful badass, but she didn't learn anything along the way, because "power" and "destiny" are lousy teaching tools.

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John Cope
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Re: Game of Thrones

#409 Post by John Cope » Sat May 18, 2019 8:34 pm

As we prepare for the final blow to land, an interesting and different take on all this.

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tenia
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Re: Game of Thrones

#410 Post by tenia » Sun May 19, 2019 5:35 am

It was interesting and different at first, but in the end, it's just another way of writing about "how Benioff and Weiss are bad writers / showrunners and this 8th season is poorly written".
For instance, we can see the decision as not "her tyrannical genes turning on", but a strategic decision that actually makes sense.

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John Cope
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Re: Game of Thrones

#411 Post by John Cope » Sun May 19, 2019 2:09 pm

I think that probably gives the show far too much credit but I guess we'll see tonight.

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tenia
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Re: Game of Thrones

#412 Post by tenia » Sun May 19, 2019 2:55 pm

Indeed. The truth probably lies inbetween things that make sense and plain poor writing.

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domino harvey
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Re: Game of Thrones

#413 Post by domino harvey » Sun May 19, 2019 2:56 pm

tenia wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 5:35 am
For instance, we can see the decision as not "her tyrannical genes turning on", but a strategic decision that actually makes sense.
See, now this is how you have fun writing about the show. One of the few Game of Thrones articles I’ve ever read that didn’t fill me with regret immediately after (and often during) reading

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tenia
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Re: Game of Thrones

#414 Post by tenia » Sun May 19, 2019 4:43 pm

It was kind of the same for me, which is why I thought other might find it as fun as I did ! It felt a logical but very different to look at an episode which is a military battle after all.

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Re: Game of Thrones

#415 Post by bearcuborg » Sun May 19, 2019 9:04 pm

Fingers crossed for a good one for you all. The one thing I’ll miss is that all of the hip restaurants are easy to get into during Game of Thrones nights.

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Roscoe
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Re: Game of Thrones

#416 Post by Roscoe » Sun May 19, 2019 10:28 pm

Worked for me. As finales go, yeah. I'm good with it.

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domino harvey
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Re: Game of Thrones

#417 Post by domino harvey » Sun May 19, 2019 10:33 pm

This was okay. Obviously the best part by far was the first council meeting. I suspect no one sincerely thought the person who ended up on the throne would “win,” but I don’t really get the reasoning the show tried to have Tyrion offer... still, it was a surprise amidst all the more predictable elements.
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Poor Jon Snow, right back where he started from though... truly don’t understand why he wasn’t made King no matter what he did, but I don’t think the show wants us to ask this very obvious question

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domino harvey
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Re: Game of Thrones

#418 Post by domino harvey » Sun May 19, 2019 10:37 pm

Okay, this is hilarious. From Reddit
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Bran is that kid in the group project that puts in no effort and still gets an A anyways

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Re: Game of Thrones

#419 Post by Luke M » Sun May 19, 2019 10:38 pm

Roscoe wrote:Worked for me. As finales go, yeah. I'm good with it.
Agreed. I thought it was fine.

I think the fans have been overly harsh about this season. I thought it was a decent season and good conclusion to the series but also I'm not somebody who'd name their kids after any of the show's characters. So what do I know.

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YnEoS
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Re: Game of Thrones

#420 Post by YnEoS » Sun May 19, 2019 11:02 pm

I liked it overall, the Daenerys plot still doesn't work for me, didn't really seem like any of her or Jon's lines made much sense with their characters. But ultimately it was a fairly small amount of run time in the grand scheme of the show and I was glad to see so many characters and plotlines I've spent this much time reach their conclusion. I've seen quite a few people have been tearing into this episode already, I could probably nitpick certain resolutions to, but for the moment I'm just happy so many people I liked on the show made it through okay.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Game of Thrones

#421 Post by mfunk9786 » Sun May 19, 2019 11:24 pm

The last three episodes of this show were the most satisfying way a series has ended since The Sopranos, in my view. Thought this was perfect. Every character wound up in a logical place considering the circumstances, and
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Since the throne was literally and figuratively destroyed, and he likely had no interest in leading anyway, it made perfect sense not to drag Jon's blood into it. He wouldn't have accepted even if he'd made it past the sticky issue of the remaining army of unsullied wanting his head on a pike.
Considering how much I disliked last season and the first half of this season, I felt Martin's touch back in full force as the responsibility of ending his story took hold, and I couldn't have expected it to be done so well. Really, bravo. The fact that so many people are angry that they didn't get what they wanted is evidence enough that this was the correct approach and that it will age much better than a conclusion that everyone could have seen coming from a mile away, or that tried to appease the warped way that people project their own worldview onto this story.

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John Cope
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Re: Game of Thrones

#422 Post by John Cope » Sun May 19, 2019 11:28 pm

Yeah, I thought this was perfectly fine too (I was actually moved by it at times which I didn't expect and I appreciated that the council scene establishes a move toward democracy even if that remains in the distance and out of reach), though in many respects it's a quite safe and conservative ending that takes minimal chances. A quick check online, however, suggests the geeks continue to be enraged and are issuing dissertations (often well reasoned admittedly) as to why. I do agree that this finale will age well even if that's not the general consensus and even if they kind of dropped the ball with the whole magic integration into the larger society which I had expected. Not so sure whether the whole season will age as well as this though; I guess time will obviously tell.

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Re: Game of Thrones

#423 Post by mfunk9786 » Sun May 19, 2019 11:32 pm

Thought the writing, particularly for Tyrion, at the council meeting was perhaps the strongest writing this show has exhibited in years. That line about the sons of kings had me rather dazzled, for one. They sold what will surely be an unpopular bill of goods through the strength of the show's writing, staging, and acting - you can't really ask for more than that.

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domino harvey
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Re: Game of Thrones

#424 Post by domino harvey » Mon May 20, 2019 12:05 am

I doubt I will ever revisit the series after these last couple seasons. I’m a little surprised by the effusive take (though it’s more refreshing than the bile being let loose elsewhere online), but to me the show I enjoyed ended with the superb destruction of the sept and nothing since has made me want to return to this world or characters, and knowing where it all goes makes me unlikely to bother with the stronger parts again. I’m glad I saw it / read the books, but I’m good

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mfunk9786
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Re: Game of Thrones

#425 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon May 20, 2019 12:09 am

Would you read additional books if they're ever published?

I ask as someone who hasn't read the books and won't unless I know they've all been released.

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