The Jacques Rivette Collection

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Adam X
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#451 Post by Adam X » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:44 am

When this set was announced I decided to have a look at Out 1 before taking the plunge and didn't make it much further than the first part. Elements of it were interesting, but the length it dragged on for made the film seem interminable. I work in theatre as a tech (for the most part), so I'm perhaps a bit biased in that I see acting exercises in person every other week. I didn't really feel the need to keep watching them at home! I do remember liking Celine and Julie quite a bit when I saw it years ago, and thought Le Pont du Nord held promise (that for me it didn't exactly live up to), though probably the most comparable experience with attempting Out 1 was in seeing Secret Defense at MIFF in 1998. Not watched in the best of circumstances though, as it was a Sunday morning after watching films late at the festival the night before, it was all I could do to keep my eyes open and should've walked out before the end but I stuck it out despite finding the film exhaustingly dull.
domino harvey wrote:Rivette’s entire methodology here [...] is one of the most arrogant approaches to filmmaking I have ever witnessed. Rivette has decided that the things he films and includes in his picture matter solely because he filmed them and included them. There is no meaning to anything other than via audience projection, and no pleasure or value inherent in any of his material other than sporadic blips on the overall flatline. The few scant parts that work are a result of the law of averages.
I don't feel I've seen enough of Rivette's work (and likely never will) to adequately comment on his films, but reading this made me think of 'artist' Martin Creed...
Last edited by Adam X on Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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swo17
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#452 Post by swo17 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:34 pm

This boxset = Hillary Clinton
This thread = the election

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What A Disgrace
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#453 Post by What A Disgrace » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Pretty much. My two favorite Arrow releases this year have been American Horror Project and Jacques Rivette, and I'm flabbergasted that the latter has derived more vocal ire than the former!

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barryconvex
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#454 Post by barryconvex » Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:52 am

From what i've seen, Rivette's two classic films are La Belle Noiseuse and Gang Of Four. With LBN being in the top five or so movies of the 90s for me. Secret Defense, Celine and Julie Go Boating, The Duchess of Langeais, The Story of Marie and Julien and Le Pont du Nord all fall between very good and great. I get a kick out of Duelle, Noroit and Merry Go Round because they're so loony but wouldn't recommend them. I can remember nothing about Paris Belongs to Us and Love on the Ground. The Jean La Pucelle films, Va Savoir, and Wuthering Heights all had things i liked about them and i would probably grade them on the higher end of mediocre. The two that are unwatchable to me are L'amour Fou and Out 1. The others i haven't seen...

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Feego
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#455 Post by Feego » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:45 am

I just got the Rivette set but have yet to dive into it. My only experience with Rivette is Celine and Julie Go Boating, which I love but have a curious experience with. I've seen it twice, and both times I was intrigued by the first 20 minutes or so, found myself very bored by the next hour or so, and then so floored by everything that came afterward that I couldn't help but consider it one of the greatest movie experiences of my life. So, the stories here of people being bored by the first episode of a 13-hour Rivette film do not turn me off in any way. In fact, I was kind of anticipating this and strangely look forward to it.

I do have a question about Out 1 though. How has it been traditionally screened? Are theatrical screenings broken up by episode over a period of several days, or is it actually screened in one 13-hour showing? For the record, I will NOT be attempting to watch this in one sitting.

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jsteffe
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#456 Post by jsteffe » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:59 am

Many venues have broken it up over two days, with two episodes back to back followed by an intermission and two further episodes. I think that structure works well. But each episode begins with a brief recap, so you could easily just watch it one episode at a time. Just don't wait too long between each episode.

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Ribs
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#457 Post by Ribs » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:14 am

Yeah, just watch it an episode at a time, there's no reason to need to watch it all at once. It's obviously a little more dense than your average episodic fare but I can't imagine you'd ever fall behind so long as you're still watching them relatively close together.

Once again, as more and more people are coming out of the woodwork to say how they thought Out 1 was interminable I am aghast and frightened.

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Feego
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#458 Post by Feego » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:19 am

Thanks guys. When I get around to it, I'll likely just watch one episode a night for eight nights in a row. If I make it that far... :wink:

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zedz
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#459 Post by zedz » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:54 pm

domino harvey wrote:I entertained myself as Noroit dragged on and on without anything of value occurring by making a mental Gallant list to Rivette’s Goofus works in this box, all relatively contemporary to the works themselves. To wit: If I wanted mysterious crypticism executed with style and intelligence, I would watch Raul Ruiz. If I wanted to see insights into actors and their craft, I would watch Ingmar Bergman. If I wanted to see variations on themes of conspiracies, I would watch Alan J Pakula. If I wanted to see a director play with notions of narrative and filmic time and evoke the grace notes of life, I would watch Jacques Rozier. If I wanted to admire a director’s scrappy low-budget spirit and playful shoddiness, I would watch the early films of Luc Moullet. There’s no defense for these films that can’t be answered by someone else’s superior work.
In a curious way, I think this chapter of your "Wake up, Sheeple!" post kind of answers the "Why Rivette?" question, since the alternative filmmakers you propose as superior are so wildly different from one another that it actually gets at what is so singular and intriguing about his work. And there are other key comparative filmmakers to consider such as Warhol and Feuillade.

And I think another unavoidable characteristic about Rivette is that his filmmaking is often teetering on the brink of chaos. That ramshackle, improvisatory aspect means, for me, that when everything comes together (as in Celine and Julie) it feels especially miraculous, but it also means that a number of his films never really come to life. For me, his least successful films are his most staid and stable. Merry-Go-Round is a lumpy mess, but I basically enjoyed the ride, but I find La Belle Noiseuse and the Jeannes really dull. But obviously there are wildly different proclivities among Rivette enthusiasts. I mean, Noroit was probably my favourite film in this set. Bonkers idea for a film, bonkers execution, but I was engaged throughout. But none of my favourite Rivette films are in this set (Paris nous appartient, Celine et Julie vont en bateau, La Bande des Quatre, Va Savoir).

As for Out 1, I also found the acting exercises generally awful, but the rest of the film ranged from fascinating to inspired. However there are a LOT of interminable acting exercises in the early part of the film, and if you don't press through them you don't get to the interesting stuff. One of the rewards of perseverance is that they taper off later on as everybody (including Rivette) seems to lose interest.

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Tommaso
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#460 Post by Tommaso » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:58 pm

When I first watched "Out 1" via that old and pretty awful RAI TV version that was floating around years before it first got officially released, I was similarly annoyed by these initial theatre exercises and probably only managed to get through them because I had already seen most of Rivette's other films except "L'amour fou" and thus was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, too. The rest of the film similarly reminded me of things I had seen in other -later- Rivette films but it all felt even less coherent and leading nowhere.

But then, rewatching the film -and also the shorter version, "Spectre" - I realised that this apparent 'pointlessness' is probably exactly the point of the film. The conspiracy, even more than in many other of his films, is probably entirely imaginary. The characters as well as the audience make connections and conclusions entirely on their own and at their own risk, and the fact that this same material could not only be shortened into the 4-hour-film "Spectre" but at the same time edited in an often different order of scenes - thus creating new, alternative connections, motivations, and thus, conclusions - only underlines this. For me, "Out 1" seems to be a radical experiment, doing for film what was being done already for example in avantgarde music at the time (Cage and Stockhausen come to mind): compositions that had no fixed form, were variable in their order, had no 'meaning' or 'inner logic' by itself, but had to be approached and enjoyed 'moment by moment', so to speak. Even though I'd argue that the initial acting exercises do have some relevance by establishing the different approaches to theatre (and characters) that Lili and Thomas have, they nevertheless function like individual 'art objects' that we are given extensive time to regard and enjoy for what they are, in themselves. Bewildering, non-narrative, for sure, but at the same time fascinating to behold as apparently 'meaningless' entities, 'moments', just for themselves.

And so Domino is even right when saying that "Rivette has decided that the things he films and includes in his picture matter solely because he filmed them and included them. There is no meaning to anything other than via audience projection". But, like with the musical works of Cage, this is exactly the point. Everything that is 'around' could become a part of the work of art, and much of what we see later on in the film is pretty rewarding in itself (the entire way the intellectual circles of Paris and the lifestyle of the times emerge through the succession of "Out 1"'s seemingly unconnected or at least only very loosely connected sequences). But any approach that wants to find a clear (or even not so clear) narrative or narrative structure entirely misses what I believe Rivette was after here and perhaps also in "Noroit", which while less extreme, seems to follow a similar idea. In this respect, these two films are really the worst possible points to start if you're new to Rivette or if your narrative tastes prefer a basically 'linear' structure, or a 'meaningful' narrative. But even though Rivette perhaps conceived of "Out 1" as a most daring experiment of which he didn't know where it would lead him, the execution in terms of acting (Léaud, Ogier most of all) and mise-en-scène is as excellent as in any other film that he made.

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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#461 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:02 pm

Pont du Nord and Marie and Julien are the two Rivette films I love the most, though I also love most of his other films. I actually liked much of Out 1, long version (other than some of the too long rehearsal sequences), most of Duelle and a lot of bits of Merry-Go-Round. My only kind words for Noroit pertain to the music, which I actually rather liked. Otherwise...

All in all, an excellently-produced collection of most of my least favorite Rivette. As a completist, I'm delighted to have this -- but it is not a set that I will revisit often -- and I have never (and would never) recommend anyone watch any of these films as an introduction to Rivette's work.

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jsteffe
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#462 Post by jsteffe » Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:29 am

Tommaso wrote: But then, rewatching the film -and also the shorter version, "Spectre" - I realised that this apparent 'pointlessness' is probably exactly the point of the film. The conspiracy, even more than in many other of his films, is probably entirely imaginary. The characters as well as the audience make connections and conclusions entirely on their own and at their own risk, and the fact that this same material could not only be shortened into the 4-hour-film "Spectre" but at the same time edited in an often different order of scenes - thus creating new, alternative connections, motivations, and thus, conclusions - only underlines this. For me, "Out 1" seems to be a radical experiment, doing for film what was being done already for example in avantgarde music at the time (Cage and Stockhausen come to mind): compositions that had no fixed form, were variable in their order, had no 'meaning' or 'inner logic' by itself, but had to be approached and enjoyed 'moment by moment', so to speak. Even though I'd argue that the initial acting exercises do have some relevance by establishing the different approaches to theatre (and characters) that Lili and Thomas have, they nevertheless function like individual 'art objects' that we are given extensive time to regard and enjoy for what they are, in themselves. Bewildering, non-narrative, for sure, but at the same time fascinating to behold as apparently 'meaningless' entities, 'moments', just for themselves.

And so Domino is even right when saying that "Rivette has decided that the things he films and includes in his picture matter solely because he filmed them and included them. There is no meaning to anything other than via audience projection". But, like with the musical works of Cage, this is exactly the point. Everything that is 'around' could become a part of the work of art, and much of what we see later on in the film is pretty rewarding in itself (the entire way the intellectual circles of Paris and the lifestyle of the times emerge through the succession of "Out 1"'s seemingly unconnected or at least only very loosely connected sequences). But any approach that wants to find a clear (or even not so clear) narrative or narrative structure entirely misses what I believe Rivette was after here and perhaps also in "Noroit", which while less extreme, seems to follow a similar idea. In this respect, these two films are really the worst possible points to start if you're new to Rivette or if your narrative tastes prefer a basically 'linear' structure, or a 'meaningful' narrative. But even though Rivette perhaps conceived of "Out 1" as a most daring experiment of which he didn't know where it would lead him, the execution in terms of acting (Léaud, Ogier most of all) and mise-en-scène is as excellent as in any other film that he made.
These are excellent observations. In fact the connection with avant-garde music is *explicitly* invoked with Lili's troupe. They are building their performance as a kind of serial composition akin to Boulez or Messiaen.

I think Thomas's troupe partly invokes Artaud's Theater of Cruelty. Also, there is a strong connection with Jean Rouch's ethnographic films, especially Les Maitres fous. Pierre-William Glenn as the cameraman effectively becomes a participant in the ritualized play, and some of the specific props they work with recall Rouch's film. The Thomas sequences are almost unbearable to watch, especially the first time around, but if you pay close attention to the camerawork, Rivette and his crew pull off some remarkable stuff. I still think there is too much of the theater rehearsals early in the film, but I appreciate what Rivette was going for. And I got into it more the second time around.

Out 1 truly is a radical experiment, and it may not always work as a result, but there is plenty of brilliant stuff in it. I agree with many of you that it's not the best place to start, though. We need a decent Blu-ray of Celine and Julie!

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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#463 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:31 pm

The thing that always strikes me about Rivette (though I hasten to add that I have not yet delved into this box set as yet, but love La Belle Noiseuse in particular) is that his films seem all about the process of creation and creative exploration, without any guarantee that that will lead to a coherent, or even satisfying, end result. Its about the joy of worldbuilding (or need to impose oneself upon the world) and of the drive to bring order or meaning out of chaos, or at least the imperfect and impossible (and solipsistic) attempt at such. Its why his films can just as likely tip towards becoming paranoid conspiracy thrillers as to abstract performance pieces.

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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#464 Post by Gregory » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:41 pm

A Blu-ray of Céline and Julie would be, er, "magic" but New Yorker Films will probably outlive me and still never put it out. The BFI DVD is still a bargain, well worth (re-)watching, and comes with some interesting extras, and maybe if a bunch more of us purchased it, a Blu-ray announcement would come immediately thereafter?

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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#465 Post by Michael Kerpan » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:01 pm

I think the French DVD of Celine and Julie looks better, but no subs. :-(

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Adam X
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#466 Post by Adam X » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:39 am

colinr0380 wrote:The thing that always strikes me about Rivette ...
This is I think what I find difficult about his films. When discussed in those terms, Rivette's films sound potentially wonderful and fascinating (almost like a more subdued, less pop culture-centric take on Grant Morrison's The Invisibles), yet aside from Celine et Julie & Le Pont du Nord, what I've seen so far has been nothing but fustrating and have proved fairly difficult to actually obtain any real enjoyment.

Based on those two positive experiences, can anyone reccommend any of his available films that I might enjoy more before dovetailing back towards giving Out 1 another go? What's been said (esp. by zedz) makes me think I may find what some see in his works if I just keep digging.
Paris Belongs to Us, maybe?

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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#467 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:07 am

I strongly recommend Gang of Four, Secret défense (which means "top secret" rather than Secret Defense) and Marie and Julien. Also, if a good edition of Joan the Maid ever appears....

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Adam X
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#468 Post by Adam X » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:26 am

Thanks Michael, and I am curious to see what Secret Défense might be like outside of my original sleep-deprived film festival screening.

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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#469 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:01 pm

Adam Grikepelis wrote:Thanks Michael, and I am curious to see what Secret Défense might be like outside of my original sleep-deprived film festival screening.
Sleep-deprived Rivette watching is probably always a bad idea.

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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#470 Post by dadaistnun » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:06 pm

I don't know - I watched my one & only Rivette thus far while suffering from a bout of insomnia a couple of months ago, and I get the feeling I enjoyed Duelle more than most here.

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jorencain
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#471 Post by jorencain » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:57 pm

dadaistnun wrote:I don't know - I watched my one & only Rivette thus far while suffering from a bout of insomnia a couple of months ago, and I get the feeling I enjoyed Duelle more than most here.
No, I loved "Duelle." The rest of the set really pales in comparison for me. Count me as one that was nearly driven mad by "Out 1."

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barryconvex
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#472 Post by barryconvex » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:49 pm

Adam Grikepelis wrote:Based on those two positive experiences, can anyone reccommend any of his available films that I might enjoy more before dovetailing back towards giving Out 1 another go? What's been said (esp. by zedz) makes me think I may find what some see in his works if I just keep digging. Paris Belongs to Us, maybe?
I second Gang Of Four. Terrific movie and available for less than $10 last time i checked...

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Satori
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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#473 Post by Satori » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:29 pm

Adam Grikepelis wrote:Based on those two positive experiences, can anyone reccommend any of his available films that I might enjoy more before dovetailing back towards giving Out 1 another go? What's been said (esp. by zedz) makes me think I may find what some see in his works if I just keep digging.
Up, Down, Fragile is another accessible and fun film that is probably closer to Celine and Julie in tone than any of films in this set. It's one of his 'women running around Paris getting into adventures' films and it's even a musical! I'm actually teaching it this week so I just had the pleasure of watching it with a room full of 18-21 year olds who were (on the whole) completely enthused by it.

However, I love the films in this set including Out 1 and especially Duelle so I might not be the best person to recommend Rivettes to those who aren't fans.

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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#474 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:24 am

Out of those I've seen (which isn't many so far) I’d probably recommend La Belle Noiseuse as a good entry point, as that tackles a more human (and less ‘actorly’! Though that is there too!) approach to artistic creation, with the proviso that you have to be OK with long sequences of sketching and painting across the four hours the film runs. But it’s a great piece that tackles the way that the interactions between subject and artist outside of the studio can subtly (or not so subtly!) influence the artwork produced, even when its superficially dealing with the same subject matter. It’s the other great ‘process of painting’ film from the early 90s along with Victor Erice’s The Dream of Light/The Quince Tree Sun.

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Re: The Jacques Rivette Collection

#475 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm

Satori -- Where did you find a subbed version of Up Down Fragile? The only subbed version I ever heard about (but never actually saw) was a very expensive VHS tape version (now long out of print).

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