Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

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Mr Sausage
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#101 Post by Mr Sausage » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:45 pm

gcgiles1dollarbin wrote:She didn't have to be an Iranian housekeeper.
She had to be Iranian and she had to be inside the house. That kind of narrows things down. And this is only assuming she isn't real (and she probably was--I don't doubt the Canadian ambassador had an Iranian housekeeper).
gcgiles1dollarbin wrote:In addition, I am asserting that her presence is a flimsy afterthought, perhaps that very sop to liberals that you maintain should be avoided in pictures like these.
I know. I just don't see the evidence. We know why she doesn't turn them in: because the real people didn't get caught. And we know why she's in the story: because the chance that she'll discover what's up and alert the authorities adds to the suspense and the time crunch. I'm taking Ockam's razor to this one. There are simpler explanations that better account for the evidence.
gcgiles1dollarbin wrote:But above all, I suppose that I am asserting that no effect is incidental. None! There are no accidents when it comes to art--only arguments made in the production's aftermath.
Speaking of absolutism...
gcgiles1dollarbin wrote:But that's all I'm discussing: what I want. What "ought" to be and what I want are identical, as they are for all people. If you have no interest in my opinion, that's fine, but there is no difference between an "ought" and a preference, which apparently is another fundamental divide between the two of us
Heh, sorry, I didn't mean to say your opinion isn't interesting, I meant that in terms of likes there isn't much of a discussion to be had beyond acknowledging them. I do appreciate your preferences, tho', even when I don't share them.

I do think you can practise a criticism that goes beyond simply liking or disliking something, however. Those are the kind of discussions I like to have.

"Ought" and "want" aren't identical concepts. It's the difference between desire and principle, say. We usually teach kids this in kindergarten.
gcgiles1dollarbin wrote:Phew. I'm done. You're phenomenal! I mean that--no snark. And you can have the last word, if you want, but I can't believe you are pursuing this after I was pumping my fist on your behalf just a couple posts ago
Well. Phenomenally long-winded, anyway...

But, seriously, I appreciate the interesting discussion. I think your views have merit and that you approached them in an intelligent manner. Thanks.
gcgiles1dollarbin wrote:Who's accusing anyone of being an idiot? Why not take a poorly rendered depiction of the revolution and exploit it to your political purposes, if it's there for the taking? As for confirmation bias (which I'm assuming you mean to be the tendency to favor information that serves your own beliefs), say goodbye to the forum if you refute all examples of that! We do choose our arguments, all of us, attempting to put evidence in the service of our arguments, and if you have decided that that's cherry-picking, then there is no escape for any of us.
That's just my name for it, since most variations implicitly ask what would happen if less intelligent people start misconstruing this or that.

Confirmation Bias is a cognitive bias where someone seeks to confirm their own views by only looking for the evidence that supports their position while ignoring any of the evidence that doesn't. It is a long-standing example of bad arguing. If you only look to confirm what you already believe to be true, you're always going to find it.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#102 Post by Mr Sausage » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:02 pm

knives wrote:Instead Affleck exclusively is concerned with making a good thriller in which case he should have picked a topic (as he did in his past two films) which does not have these questions and many others attached to it. By ignoring all of the none pure entertainment aspects not only does he make a more bland feature, but one that has some pretty nasty implicit implications accidentally too.
I think Affleck chose his form very well. I think a thriller is the best way to tell this story of evacuating hostages from Iran. The events lend itself to that form, and I admire Affleck's craft in putting together such a tense and taut movie out of something whose ending we know beforehand. Reminded me of All the President's Men in that regard.

There are a number of problematic elements to the movie, but it's going too far to say that they're particularly nasty. I don't see that at all. I think it's pretty difficult to deal with Iran without being problematic; it's a problematic nation with a problematic history in and of itself. One of the interesting problematic elements actually doesn't concern the revolutionaries but the Shah and his wife. I think it was Rosenbaum who said that the opening prologue emphasized what may well have been an untrue slander (that the Shah's wife bathed in milk every day and led a luxurious life on the backs of her subjects) and didn't mention the beneficial public programs she spearheaded. Even I noticed that the movie really makes the Shah look horrible; that tv appearance in particular just made me think "you slimy little liar", tho' looking back I had no reason to think he was necessarily lying. The film may actually have stated some untruths and done a bit of historical manipulation that has the effect of further justifying Iranian anger.

I don't like the movie any less for that (and I am not naive enough to suppose that movies don't freely and widely indulge in manipulation, nor does this bother me on principle), but it is problematic, and that should be admitted for sure.

Grand Illusion
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:56 am

Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#103 Post by Grand Illusion » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:17 pm

matrixschmatrix wrote:I don't think it's necessary to think the politics of a film are intentional on the filmmaker's part or heavily influential to the larger culture for them to be a major point of interest in a film and how it's interpreted, nor do I think it distracts from discussion of a film to discuss its politics and political context. Moreover, any American movie set in Iran is going automatically to bring up political questions, as the nature of Iranian society and how we perceive it is a major question in American politics.

Affleck may not have had any overt political aims in mind when making the movie- in fact, I'd be surprised if he did- but to some degree, that makes the questions of how he chose his subject and how he chose to depict Iranians that much more interesting, as it means it's sort of a default view of what 'Iran' means to Hollywood right now. That's a subject worth discussing, I'd say, and frankly somewhat more interesting than the well-made but unremarkable moviemaking on display in it.
This is a very interesting way to read Ben Affleck's Argo. The question becomes not what does the filmmaker want us to learn about Iran, but instead the question is what an apolitical American filmmaker thinks of Iran.

I think Affleck tries to satiate liberal hand-wringing with the brief primer on Iran at the beginning. Imagine if he didn't even mention the CIA involvement with the Shah! After all, if you don't make concessions to the liberal film criticism establishment (even when upholding what actually happened), you get Zero Dark Thirty. Still, even after that initial vignette, the film reverts back to its apolitical thriller nature.

So what is the answer to what Affleck, working as an apolitical American filmmaker, thinks of Iran? What does the film tell us? That we (the US) did some shitty things in the past. That people are angry with us, and the implication that people still are. That Iranians are very likely to mobilize to create a dangerous situation (but not without knowledge that "creation" stems back to US engagement and even further into the past). And we have no idea how to fix any of it, so we'd better get the heck out of there, fast. And celebration involves our own safe exit, while leaving everyone else to their violent grievances.

I think there are some valuable political points in there, if that's what an apolitical Argo indeed has to say beyond its very well-told story.

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knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#104 Post by knives » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:05 am

Mr Sausage wrote:
knives wrote:Instead Affleck exclusively is concerned with making a good thriller in which case he should have picked a topic (as he did in his past two films) which does not have these questions and many others attached to it. By ignoring all of the none pure entertainment aspects not only does he make a more bland feature, but one that has some pretty nasty implicit implications accidentally too.
I think Affleck chose his form very well. I think a thriller is the best way to tell this story of evacuating hostages from Iran. The events lend itself to that form, and I admire Affleck's craft in putting together such a tense and taught movie out of something whose ending we know beforehand. Reminded me of All the President's Men in that regard.

There are a number of problematic elements to the movie, but it's going too far to say that they're particularly nasty. I don't see that at all. I think it's pretty difficult to deal with Iran without being problematic; it's a problematic nation with a problematic history in and of itself. One of the interesting problematic elements actually doesn't concern the revolutionaries but the Shah and his wife. I think it was Rosenbaum who said that the opening prologue emphasized what may well have been an untrue slander (that the Shah's wife bathed in milk every day and led a luxurious life on the backs of her subjects) and didn't mention the beneficial public programs she spearheaded. Even I noticed that the movie really makes the Shah look horrible; that tv appearance in particular just made me think "you slimy little liar", tho' looking back I had no reason to think he was necessarily lying. The film may actually have stated some untruths and done a bit of historical manipulation that has the effect of further justifying Iranian anger.

I don't like the movie any less for that (and I am not naive enough to suppose that movies don't freely and widely indulge in manipulation, nor does this bother me on principle), but it is problematic, and that should be admitted for sure.
Looking back I was overreaching by saying nasty, but I agree with the none emotive parts of my statement (which may be a way of saying I agree with your take on the film if not the conclusions you draw from it such as the Pakula comparison).

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feihong
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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#105 Post by feihong » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:51 am

Finally tonight I got to see this movie. It's interesting to me that the film is now a serious contender for Oscar glory--not to say that it's entirely surprising, given that it's one of Hollywood's favorite sons tackling a sobering issue with some sense of tact, and that in the end the film is a pat on the back to the huckster chutzpah of Hollywood dream merchants and their elaborate fantasies. The reason it's interesting that the film is a contender, and that it garners such high praise here on the board, and most everywhere else, is that the film is really not very well-made at all. There are huge problems in the scripting of the film, the directing--even the cinematography seemed thoroughly off to me. I know that it's naive of me to think that the Best Picture Oscar should go to a landmark film of some kind, but when I think about this picture possibly winning it, I wonder to myself, "shouldn't the Best Picture be a good movie?"

Of course, The Sting won Best Picture, and so did Out of Africa, and Crash, so that sentiment holds no special purchase in reality. Nor is the Oscar a measure of the way a film marks us, or of the way a film may advance its medium. But I can't really help hoping that the picture that wins is a pretty great picture. And while of the other nominees I've only seen Les Miserables--and I hope that one doesn't get Best Picture, either, because it's a mess as well--I can't help thinking there are better choices than Argo.


That is mostly just introduction to all the problems I have with this movie. I don't think I can sort them into much of a productive order--I found I could start talking crap about the movie while it was still running, and debating the filmmaking choices while the movie is running is generally a bad sign for the film. Normally I just sit there quiet and take in the picture, and wait until afterwards to start organizing a series of thoughts. But I encountered things that bothered me in large and small ways throughout, and so I'll just plunge into them with a bare minimum of organization; sorry.

The immediate problem that hit me was the many, many ways in which this film was helpless to recreate the sense of the 1970s. Upon the first cut to Los Angeles, I wondered out loud to myself where the smog layer had got to. I remember nearly every afternoon of my childhood looking to a horizon that featured a distinctive, rust-colored band of foul air--the smog layer that was so vivid you could smell it's acrid burn. The Los Angeles of the film, in the long shots, was as clear as a modern sky could be. I thought of the scents and aromas of my childhood, and made a second disappointing realization: hardly anyone smokes in Argo. Yet I remember as a child visiting houses of just about anyone I knew and seeing and smelling and feeling the light filtered through clouds of cigarette haze. Ashtrays aren't exceptionally visible in Argo; though they were a basic necessity of furniture in the late 70s.

Noticing no one stubbing out a cigarette butt in most scenes, gradually everything the actors did began to annoy me. Nearly every English-speaker in the film cussed a blue streak through the picture, and that lack of decorum gave me pause. Then as the engine of suspense began to push forward and the actors started playing out the kind of dialogue familiar to us from decades of Tom Clancy movies, and Die Hards, and Law and Order and 24 on television. Actors began approaching other actors, interrupting their...whatever they were doing; it's hard to recall them doing anything...and with no introduction they started shouting orders at one another. "Get it done!" "They're running out of time!" "We have to move!" "Do everything I say!" Everyone's familiar with this way of talking, unless you've been living under a rock where there's no TV for about the last 20 years--but that's the problem. It's a tradition of informal exchange, wrought with high emotion, that has developed in our society in recent times--during the last 20 years. In late 1970s discourse people did not, in general, just walk into a room and start ordering everyone in it around. But not only Mendez does this in the movie; this virus of verbal imperative infiltrates all of the CIA scenes, and the captive members of the diplomatic corps pick up on the behavior on their own, in spite of their extreme isolation from the Washington group. No one knocks on a door before entering an office in this movie. No one excuses themselves or apologizes for interrupting another person who happens to be on the telephone. No one ever apologizes for telling another character to fuck off. All this is common in the contemporary era; was it really common in the 1970s? In the Intelligence Service? In the Diplomatic Corps?

Spend enough time thinking this way and you notice how trim and chiseled everyone's facial features are in the movie--how free of blemishes and scars they all are--how muscular and defined, how balanced their weight is. How they all seem either too tan or not tan enough. How much product is in their hair. This is the era of Star War Episode IV. I haven't checked recently, but I doubt if even George Lucas can go back and digitally remove the natural frizz of all the hair in that movie. Even done up to the nines, people wore their hair then like Farrah Fawcett, not like Megan Fox. But everyone in Argo wears their hair like Megan Fox.

Is it the callout of the old Warner Bros logo on the front of the movie that makes me think this way? Does it draw undue attention to all these frustrating omissions of detail? I think even genuine supporters of this movie would have to admit that the buildup of these missing details begins to look towards larger errors. It's only a step from worrying about hair product and clothes to worrying about things like behavior and body language. And no one in Argo manages to approximate the gentler body language of the movie's time period. Instead, every actor asserts themselves; proud, confident--fronting their "rep" and their need to capture attention within the architecture of the modern thriller. People in the film carry themselves with contemporary confidence and modern ego, not realizing that in the era of the film there was a considerably different standard of address and behavior. It was an era in which people's positions in society meant more than an individual's lone attitude--especially in places like, oh, the Diplomatic Corps and the CIA--this atmosphere is something that films as diverse as Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and Boogie Nights get exactly right, and which Argo flubs from top to bottom. People of that time period were conscious first of their effect upon others; people in the diplomatic corps would have been particularly trained in the sort of "grace under pressure" that emphasizes the value of other people's feelings.

More than this, though, the movie's characters hardly seem alive to begin with. We know practically nothing about our potential hostages. Where have their personalities gone? How did the couples meet? Are their relationships working or are they clashing? Why have they even gotten together with one another? The older man--how does he relate to the others? He ceases to be their leader rather abruptly--the second scene we see he in he appears drained of vitality, and he drifts from there. While it may be realistic that the trauma of the situation has degraded these people to states of shock and mind-numbing terror, the fact that these people are never characterized is a very loose end in the movie. It allows us to care very little about their fates, just as it excuses us from sympathizing with their fears. And it nearly removes any potential source of tension the movie seeks to create.

And now it's time to say that this "thriller" is not really suspenseful. It is noisy, full of incoherent, screaming crowds and the sounds of car engines roaring and glass braking. But the film never creates a palpable sense of tension, and it fails to build the tension it has to a charged climax. That's why the picture needs the very theatrical 11th-hour chase at the end--the chase which almost everyone contributing to the thread has admitted feels like a very generic movie addendum to the history being shown. And that chase is fairly ridiculous, because it happens virtually after-the-fact. The erstwhile objects of the chase--the escapees from the Embassy--never discover that they are being pursued, and once again there is simply no emotional involvement in what goes on with them, because they are never characters to begin with.

In addition, the film has extreme problems in terms of the clarity of its action. Each suspenseful scene is convoluted by the way the action is played out in several different locations across the world, in different time zones and involving people who have extremely varied degrees of involvement in the action taking place. The film doesn't explain to the viewer very well how the action in these different places impacts the "events on the ground" in Iran, just as the film fails to create any real sense of anticipation at key moments of suspense. Never is it clearly diagrammed for us in advance what Mendez's choices and options might be, or what the Bryan Cranston character might be able to do to turn things around when his bosses decide the operation is a wash. When these characters do leap into action, we are meant to respond to the fury of their physical movements rather than our intimate knowledge of their feelings, their intellectual resources, or the choices they may have at their disposal. And so the suspense of the movie is condensed and minimized and brought to focus only around key scenes; the fugitives are in danger exclusively when they're out in the open, and that's when the suspense starts grinding its gears. The rest of the time we spend trying to piece together the relationships between this plot movement in Hollywood and this other plot movement in Washington and this relative lull happening in Iran at presumably the same approximate time. Whereas the real, historical fugitives lived out these days in terror--and not just the fugitives, but the Canadian Ambassador who shielded them and his family. And Mendez was at risk every day he was on the ground in Iran. But we hardly feel all these risks the characters are taking, and the actors hardly seem to register danger except in the key moments.

What if, instead of concocting an elaborate scene of action around the airstrip at the end, someone had seen fit to put that kind of dramatic ingenuity to work on the film that precedes the chase? What if we the viewers were introduced to the entire scenario in a different way? What if, instead of an information dump, followed by 3 or 4 days of condensed tension, we had a movie which gradually developed a sense of the real terror of these people's predicament? What if we grew to understand what was happening gradually, as a) the fugitives themselves must have done in the midst of these galvanizing historic events, and b) the CIA must have done as well, with their access to information limited and hampered (how does the CIA get its constant, on-the-minute updates about what is happening right next door to the hostage crisis on the other side of the globe)? Almost immediately we have outlined for us the full severity of what might happen in this potential hostage scenario (that seemingly quite relevant fact--that a real hostage scenario was playing out right next door {one which described rather clearly what might happen to the fugitive Americans if they were apprehended} is hardly exploited by the film as a source of suspense). What if the film played out in more select scenes, over a longer period of time?

What if the picture began months before the revolution, and, rather than being subjected to one of the worst narrations ever to feature in a Hollywood film, we were given information slowly, encounter by encounter? What if, as it becomes clear that the revolution is happening, we begin to gradually focus on individuals, and only at the point when the embassy is invaded do we realize that we have been focusing on these specific individuals because they are the ones who will escape the hostage crisis, and become our main characters? What if we stay with them longer, and learn more about them, and grow to care about what they think and feel?

I suggest this because I think the structure of the film reveals one of its most serious problems; Affleck and company have identified the suspense structure of the film essentially as a pursuit. That's why the scenes of hiding remain completely inert. But shouldn't those scenes be fraught with tension? Aren't these fugitive Americans engaged during that period of hiding in mastering the elaborate pretense of becoming not just Canadian, but also filmmakers? I have heard Mendez in an interview, describing the different things he did with the 6 escapees to create this illusion. It included altering people's hairlines, training them in particular body language, transforming their wardrobe and their manner of speech. Mendez goes into the kind of minute detail that they had to address to maintain the illusion--in the movie Affleck tells us and the escapees that if they screw up they're dead. In a 20-minute interview, Mendez illuminates a nerve-shredding trial, entirely in the details of method and practice. These people not only had to suppress their fears and panic--they had to also remember how to be completely different people, and make a convincing show of it! The true source of suspense in the picture ought to be that elaborate ruse; the becoming of this other person, and the maintenance of that illusion. We should see the escapees undergoing this transformation. We should see them changing before us; if we are with them though that process--if we understand them, identify with them, and see that they are beginning to have the hope of succeeding--then all the suspense in the world is ready and waiting for us when the fugitives go into the airport. And if all that was done well, there wouldn't be any need for the crazed pursuit of the plane on the runway: rather, the challenge would be simply getting through the gate, and the reward would be getting on the plane. I imagine any one of the real people who went through that situation would agree with that estimate.

What if we were shown the revolution happening, rather than be told about it? All it might take is two or three well-made scenes, where the information filters in to us, rather than being dumped in our laps. What if we met our fugitive characters before they went into panic-mode? Then we'd have a stake. We'd care about these people, and we'd have a clearer sense of what might be waiting for them out of their hiding place. We'd know how afraid they would be to leave the Ambassador's house, because we'd feel the source of their fear ourselves. What if Mendez's challenge was one of imagination, and the feat of determination and ingenuity it takes to make your transformative vision felt by other people? Mendez is essentially making a movie with these people--he's going through so many of the key phases of that process. He's creating a plausible dream that will involve the Iranian revolutionary army in his illusion the way a good movie involves an audience. What if that irony was actually central to the movie, instead of a sort of a glib sidebar? All the Hollywood people do in the picture is tell Affleck "good job" and then go wait by the phone to do their one little bit of corroboration. To hear Mendez talk of it in real life, you know that this process was so much more involved than the movie admits. As actors, the true fugitives were more at risk than Klaus Kinski, possessed by a role--in fact, the risk involved in their performance is more on the level of John Wilkes Booth, where they are laying their lives on the line, in a role. And these people were so ill-equipped to begin to play this illusion. There is so much opportunity for genuine suspense in the creation and the sustaining force of this illusion, that the actual suspense left in the movie--CIA cold feet and the furious mugging of the Iranian security guards--is dispiritingly flimsy.

As a final note, I have to say that Ben Affleck gives us an extremely dull portrait of Mendez. Mendez is the director; in a sense he's the director of the whole shebang; but Affleck only gives Mendez one scene in which he rehearses identities with the escapees. At no point in the film does Affleck himself come across as anything other than a tense, imperiled CIA guy. With his pained inability to crack a smile, Affleck is actually the weakest link in the group of pretend filmmakers that walk through the airport. Not that he has ever claimed to be much of an actor (though he does expect us to pay to see him; there's a little conundrum there worth some additional reflection). But this portrayal of Mendez--not just Affleck's conception of him, but the written take on the character as well--misses a very obvious point about this guy, which you can see very clearly in the photograph somebody posted of the real Mendez earlier in the thread: that Mendez clearly loved doing the job. He wasn't slouching his way through the assignment, drinking and awkwardly sucking in his breath; Mendez was directing these people. He was maintaining equilibrium in this nearly beseiged house while he trained 6 novices hiding there to act; all the while he worked on their wardrobe, their hair, and he coached them in appropriate body language. He drilled them like a demon--like a Von Stroheim, a Von Sternberg of a Mizoguchi. And let's not forget that in Mendez we have the mogul who thought up this entire crazy scheme. The premise of Argo is not routine tactical thinking: it's grandiose and absurd. It's the stuff dreams are made of. Look at the photograph of the real Mendez, posed by the airplane. Is this not the face of a guy mad for adventure, for story and magic? The theatrical nature of this spy game came directly from Mendez--and we see none of that in Affleck himself.

To me this movie misses the boat in ways large and small. It's a film as indifferent to the quality of its performances as it is unleavened by inspired camerawork or by involved art direction. The film fails to create a tone or atmosphere of suspense--even though the historical record supplies nifty, readymade tropes in that regard, which are truly hard to miss. As a result, the suspense of the film is routine, entirely recycled from film and television of the last fifteen or so years. The picture as a whole is weakened by this generic approach, for in the premise of the film is a natural thriller, whose actual qualities of tension are unique and clearly detailed...and wholly ignored by the authors of the film. As a resultant side-note, I have to observe that we viewers know not very much more about the revolution in Iran when the film is over, save for our general knowledge culled from Schwarzenneger films, Dolph Lundgren movies and the like: that the Persians are generally wide-eyed and screaming mad at all times, and likely dangerous enemies. All told, the film is a missed opportunity to approach a challenging period of history with an enlightened, informative mindset, and a foiled attempt to capture the genuine fear and turmoil of being caught in the middle of a revolution you barely understand, and which to escape from you will be required to transform yourself completely--to learn to be another person. And there is not a worthwhile performance in this film, nor a well-realized scene. There is no real thrill to be had, and no education to gather. I can see why people hate it. I don't actually hate the movie, but I don't think, as Argo gathers its awards this awards season, that it really deserves any of them.

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Black Hat
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:34 pm
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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#106 Post by Black Hat » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:40 am

As an Iranian American my initial reaction to the film a few pages back was no harm, no foul, not a great movie but an entertaining one. With time I've become somewhat hostile towards the film although I suspect this is in large part to it being handed a bunch of awards it has no business in winning. That said the depiction of Iranians in the film I've grown to find troubling, perhaps racist is too strong a word although I admit that's how I feel, maybe feeding off of existing stereotypes is more accurate? An approach like that in addition to the obvious is just plain lazy. The two things about Argo that made me feel that way was the scene in the Bazaar and the housekeeper. It's one thing to depict the revolutionaries the way they did but another to present the people of the Bazaar, people whose one and only concern is making money as the same (if not more so) fire breathing bearded savages. My issue with the housekeeper is that she is the one sympathetic, humanised Iranian in the picture but of course she's that way because she's been around Westerners and her 'goodness' is an extension of theirs. Not cool.
Mr Sausage wrote:The glimpses of post-revolutionary Iranian society are consistent with what we know
This is true but unfortunately what we know or rather are led to believe is not the reality.
Mr Sausage wrote:But in the end the Iranians who aren't angry and in a post-revolutionary fervour have no role in the story being told.
I agree but neither the bazaar scene nor the storyline with the girl were necessary.
Mr Sausage wrote:I was more interested in whether or not the filmmakers ought to be culpable for a bunch of factors that could very well be outside of their control.
What do we make of filmmakers when they make films involving countries they've advocated using sanctions & military force against as Affleck has done? On the subject of if Iran has a nuclear weapon and if Israel should get the green light to attack, "Israel is not entirely capable of whacking them to the extent in which they need to be whacked." http://youtu.be/NHvYaIdAWaY
Mr Sausage wrote:I call this the "what about the idiots?" argument, and people have gone back and forth about it on this board.
See I find this kind of argument dismissive of people and devoid of compassion. It certainly makes for a convenient narrative, perhaps even the healthier one for people who subscribe to it but in my view these are moral issues that have earned their place to be contextualized more broadly.
Mr Sausage wrote:My reaction: Confirmation Bias is what it is.
Indeed this is the case for many but isn't labeling everyone, if that is what you're saying, who reads into films along those lines your own confirmation bias?
Mr Sausage wrote:Don't expect that a carefully nuanced and balanced portrayal of an event is going to be used any less conveniently by people on the opposing side who want to argue for their narrative of the world. They don't see nuance and balance anyway, all of that will be lost on them, so there's no point demanding it for their sake. And propaganda for your side will just be dismissed by them. Films should just not worry about those people, there is no winning.
Right but I don't think the concern is about those people who have already made up their minds about everything. The worry is about the average movie goer, the average news consumer who tend to shape their world views and perceptions with a combination of those fragments. Personally I think films like Argo do dehumanize the 'enemy', in this case Iran, to the point where the average person doesn't believe an Iranian life is valued as much as an American life is which leads to even further detachment and by extension compliance, if not outright support, should the US government decide to attack.

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Mr Sausage
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#107 Post by Mr Sausage » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:13 pm

Black Hat wrote:I agree but neither the bazaar scene nor the storyline with the girl were necessary.
No scene of suspense or tension is strictly necessary, but it's a very good idea to have them in a thriller, in fact they are the reason you make a thriller. Both of the above are not only organic to the story in general but have a real function. You could leave them out, but that amounts to saying "hey, let's reduce the amount of tense scenes in our thriller and make things seem a little more safe and secure."

Again, assuming either of them didn't really happen.
Black Hat wrote:What do we make of filmmakers when they make films involving countries they've advocated using sanctions & military force against as Affleck has done? On the subject of if Iran has a nuclear weapon and if Israel should get the green light to attack, "Israel is not entirely capable of whacking them to the extent in which they need to be whacked."
Good for him for making a film that could also've been made by a neutral person.
Black Hat wrote:
Mr Sausage wrote:I call this the "what about the idiots?" argument, and people have gone back and forth about it on this board.
See I find this kind of argument dismissive of people and devoid of compassion. It certainly makes for a convenient narrative, perhaps even the healthier one for people who subscribe to it but in my view these are moral issues that have earned their place to be contextualized more broadly.
I don't understand which argument you mean, the argument gcgilles1dollarbin was making, which I call the "what about the idiots?" argument, or my point that it's not a good argument?

If you remember, his argument was "well, what will the anti-Iranians think?" And mine was: no amount of nuance and balance on this issue will change what they think, so there's no reason to demand these things on their behalf and no reason to evaluate the movie on their (supposed) terms.

Is my stance above what you're calling "devoid of compassion"? If so, that's a bullshit accusation and I don't appreciate it one goddamn bit.
Black Hat wrote:Indeed this is the case for many but isn't labeling everyone, if that is what you're saying, who reads into films along those lines your own confirmation bias?
Well here is the attitude described by gcgiles1dollarbin that I called confirmation bias:
gcgiles1dollarbin wrote:that doesn't prevent such an over-simplified account from being used conveniently by those predisposed to despise the country.?
If I fell prey to confirmation bias myself in identifying the above as confirmation bias (at least in potential), you'll have to show me how, because I don't see it.
Black Hat wrote:Right but I don't think the concern is about those people who have already made up their minds about everything. The worry is about the average movie goer, the average news consumer who tend to shape their world views and perceptions with a combination of those fragments. Personally I think films like Argo do dehumanize the 'enemy', in this case Iran, to the point where the average person doesn't believe an Iranian life is valued as much as an American life is which leads to even further detachment and by extension compliance, if not outright support, should the US government decide to attack.
That Argo "dehumanizes" this or that group should be sufficient in itself, you shouldn't need to be appealing to the supposed thoughts of whatever group you figure is the average this or the average that on top of it

I don't judge the worth of movies on other people's terms (let alone the terms of a hypothetical group), I don't base my aesthetics on what hypothetical groups think or do not think, and I don't have the impulse to be paternalistic about these groups (if they even exist under the terms in which they're being offered to me)--they can think what they like. And I distrust anyone who claims to know not only what such groups think or will think, but how they ought to think.

And I don't think Argo is going to have any real impact on how average people (whomever they are) view Iran (positively or negatively).

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#108 Post by Ishmael » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:48 pm

In case it helps anyone in making a point, the bazaar scene (or anything like it) didn't happen in real life (assuming Mendez's book is accurate). I don't remember a housekeeper, either, though I think there were fears expressed that the housekeeping staff would wonder why these supposed guests never left the ambassador's house. So the housekeeper in the film is probably a composite but not farfetched. Also, Alan Arkin's character is completely invented, as is much of the supposed prep work for the real-life Argo, like the casting call (again assuming that Mendez told the whole story in his book). And everyone already knows, I think, that all of the cheap thriller elements in the third act of the movie were fabricated.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#109 Post by dustybooks » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:55 pm

I could be giving Affleck too much credit but I actually thought the third act was self-referential, in the sense that a movie about using movie fakery to meddle with reality in fact finally uses Hollywood bullshit to, yes, meddle with reality. (Someone earlier referred to Argo "making fun of itself" by the end, which is somewhat in line with my viewpoint.) I even took the flag scene as semi-ironic, taking the conceit of "crowd-pleasing" to its wildly pandering conclusion. But I could've been just trying to justify how much I enjoyed the film; it just seemed so silly by the finale and I guess I surrendered.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#110 Post by Black Hat » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:00 am

Mr Sausage wrote:Good for him for making a film that could also've been made by a neutral person.
Could it have been tho? And I ask that in every way the question may be interpreted. Then, what about this film is exactly neutral? The battle lines between good & evil are clearly drawn.
Mr Sausage wrote:Is my stance above what you're calling "devoid of compassion"? If so, that's a bullshit accusation and I don't appreciate it one goddamn bit.
I wasn't referring to your back & forth with gcg, nor you personally for I don't presume to know how absolute you feel about the 'what about the idiots' argument. There are however many who do, so as with all of my replies to you I wanted to hear your take as you appear to be interested in the topic and are quite articulate with your thoughts. That said regarding your last lines here I do disagree for I do believe people, even extremists, have it in them to change. Does it happen often? Of course not but I believe that it does, I've witnessed such transformations and film is one of the ways that can serve as a catalyst. And believing that people, no matter who, aren't capable of changing is in my opinion a lack of compassion. I'll admit that my sentiments are flowery, some would say naive but I don't think saying the other view lacks compassion constitutes a defensive reaction worthy of a 'bullshit accusation'.
Mr Sausage wrote:
gcgiles1dollarbin wrote:that doesn't prevent such an over-simplified account from being used conveniently by those predisposed to despise the country.?
If I fell prey to confirmation bias myself in identifying the above as confirmation bias (at least in potential), you'll have to show me how, because I don't see it.
Yeah I meant more generally when this discussion arises, do you think that you're susceptible to your own confirmation bias considering how you view the topic?
Mr Sausage wrote: That Argo "dehumanizes" this or that group should be sufficient in itself, you shouldn't need to be appealing to the supposed thoughts of whatever group you figure is the average this or the average that on top of it
You lost me a little bit here, not sure what you mean by the 'dehumanizing' should be sufficient. Sufficient for what? Yes I agree you shouldn't be consciously appealing to this or that but I do think you have a responsibility to present whatever it is your depicting fairly or you risk the kinds of things brought up both here and in Zero Dark Thirty. I'm certainly not saying it's an easy thing to do but you have to start somewhere in my opinion.
Mr Sausage wrote:
I don't judge the worth of movies on other people's terms (let alone the terms of a hypothetical group), I don't base my aesthetics on what hypothetical groups think or do not think, and I don't have the impulse to be paternalistic about these groups (if they even exist under the terms in which they're being offered to me)--they can think what they like. And I distrust anyone who claims to know not only what such groups think or will think, but how they ought to think.

And I don't think Argo is going to have any real impact on how average people (whomever they are) view Iran (positively or negatively).
I agree of the former but on the latter I think films like Argo have an effect. How profound, who knows? I do think they have an influence on consciousness tho.
Last edited by Black Hat on Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#111 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:28 am

Argo has won Best Picture at the Academy Awards.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#112 Post by Black Hat » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:05 am

I'd love to read a post or be linked to anybody explaining why Argo deserved best picture.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#113 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:07 am

Sounds like it wouldn't fall on deaf ears or anything

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#114 Post by knives » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:07 am

Black Hat wrote:I'd love to read a post or be linked to anybody explaining why Argo deserved best picture.
Best marketing team.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#115 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:09 am

*eye roll*

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#116 Post by Black Hat » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:32 am

knives wrote:Best marketing team.
Outside of that. There are definitely people out there who think Argo's deserving. I have one of these people on Facebook, her defense (or lack thereof) of the film truly makes me feel for her parents. They would have been better off burning the money they spent on her for NYU film school.

I never went to film school but it boggles my mind how someone could dedicate their education to studying film and come out of it completely incapable of digging any deeper than people who went to culinary school. Which is to say nothing of all the film school graduates that know little about movies, barely have a passion for them and aren't willing to explore the art beyond whatever is on the box office top 10 list.

Why is this the case? Is it truly just about rich kids with nothing better to do that decide it would be cool to go to film school? But if that's the true why are many of the people I know in the industry of the same attitude? Some of whom who never went to film school either. Generally speaking, at least with my generation (I'm 33), if there's any inspiration at all, it mostly begins and ends with Tarantino (with maybe a sprinkle of Scorsese). If my noob powers allow I'd love to actually branch this topic out into it's own thread, if there isn't one already, as it's a disconnect I've found perpetually perplexing that I'm sure a lot of you have opinions on.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#117 Post by HistoryProf » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:31 am

hearthesilence wrote:Argo doesn't deserve the Oscar
Andrew O'Hehir wrote:I’m less concerned with the veracity of individual details than with the fact that “Argo” uses its basis in history and its mode of detailed realism to create something that is entirely mythological... Affleck and Terrio are spinning a fanciful tale designed to make us feel better about the decrepit, xenophobic and belligerent Cold War America of 1980 as it toppled toward the abyss of Reaganism, and that’s a more outrageous lie than any of the contested historical points in “Lincoln” or “Zero Dark Thirty.” It’s almost hilarious that the grim and ambiguous portrayal of torture in Kathryn Bigelow’s film – torture that absolutely happened, however one judges it and whatever information it did or didn’t produce – was widely decried as propagandistic by well-meaning liberals who never noticed or didn’t care about Affleck and Terrio’s wholesale fictionalization.
I'm very curious as to how Mr. O'Hehir reconciles his vitriolic denunciation (so riddled with Red Herrings Mr. Sausage has so eloquently already detailed) with his original "Pick of the Week" review that concluded:
To Ben Affleck’s credit, he’s made a terrific, pulse-elevating thriller that will leave the audience cheering, and also something more than that. With America’s tormented relationship with Iran back on the global front burner, “Argo” is also a crafty, reflective mood piece that will leave you thinking about the resounding echoes of that tormented and not-so-distant era.
It seems to me that he is being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian - and ascribing his own disjointed political views to a film that made no attempt whatsoever to comment on the loftier targets of Reaganism, the Cold War, or the seedier side of Reagan's election (something I have a particular distaste for by the way). I am as critical of Reagan as anyone I know...I think Iran-Contra should be discussed as the scandal that made Watergate look like child's play....but never once sitting in the theater did Reagan's back door deal to secure his election enter my mind. That's not what Argo is about. It's a tremendously well constructed, acted, and written thriller about a very specific incident set in a very volatile time and place. Everything that came after is irrelevant. Liking Argo doesn't mean you endorse Reaganism, and it's completely laughable to suggest as much.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#118 Post by Grand Illusion » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:32 am

Black Hat wrote:Generally speaking, at least with my generation (I'm 33), if there's any inspiration at all, it mostly begins and ends with Tarantino (with maybe a sprinkle of Scorsese).
But didn't you just say that your friend who went to film school wanted Argo to win? Which would presumably mean that she wanted it to win over Django?

My advice is this: they're the friggin' Oscars, and they're meaningless to what many people's personal opinions actually consider the best film of the year. Either take them with a grain of salt or don't watch.

As a well-made thriller that posits that Hollywood can save the world, Argo is as righteous a choice as any to pick for The Representative Academy Film Of The Year.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#119 Post by Black Hat » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:42 am

Grand Illusion wrote:But didn't you just say that your friend who went to film school wanted Argo to win? Which would presumably mean that she wanted it to win over Django?

My advice is this: they're the friggin' Oscars, and they're meaningless to what many people's personal opinions actually consider the best film of the year. Either take them with a grain of salt or don't watch.

As a well-made thriller that posits that Hollywood can save the world, Argo is as righteous a choice as any to pick for The Representative Academy Film Of The Year.
Good point, with that comment I was speaking generally regarding people I know and have worked with. If you're curious the woman I'm speaking of is part of the slither I alluded to who worships at the altar of Scorsese.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#120 Post by Dylan » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:16 am

Black Hat: there's actually a fairly lengthy thread on this forum all about film school (and if it's a waste of time or not).

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#121 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:15 am

Black hat wrote:Could it have been tho? And I ask that in every way the question may be interpreted. Then, what about this film is exactly neutral? The battle lines between good & evil are clearly drawn.
I'm not saying the film is necessarily neutral, I'm saying there's nothing in it that strikes me as something a neutral person wouldn't have made. The troubling elements are the type that can easily arise from choices not related to them (plus stating mistruths about the Shah and his wife that make them look worse is not something you would expect from someone making a film that was consciously against the current regime).
Black Hat wrote:I wasn't referring to your back & forth with gcg, nor you personally for I don't presume to know how absolute you feel about the 'what about the idiots' argument. There are however many who do, so as with all of my replies to you I wanted to hear your take as you appear to be interested in the topic and are quite articulate with your thoughts. That said regarding your last lines here I do disagree for I do believe people, even extremists, have it in them to change. Does it happen often? Of course not but I believe that it does, I've witnessed such transformations and film is one of the ways that can serve as a catalyst. And believing that people, no matter who, aren't capable of changing is in my opinion a lack of compassion. I'll admit that my sentiments are flowery, some would say naive but I don't think saying the other view lacks compassion constitutes a defensive reaction worthy of a 'bullshit accusation'.
Whether or not you think people are capable of changing their minds is not a matter of compassion, it's strictly factual. I do think people can change their mind--extremists, racists, whomever--not because I've reached into the well of my compassion, but because it's a fact that humans are mutable.

But now we fall into the same problem as one of our earlier arguments: do you want this film to be propaganda for your own side? Because if skill at converting extremists is your basis for judging the film's worth, then a nuanced, balanced look (that would still have to acknowledge all the deeply awful parts of the Iranian regime) isn't going to be it, either. And conscious lies, mistruths, and deceptions for your own side aren't better than those made for the other side. Whenever I come across this kind of argument, part of me thinks that the other person is just unhappy everyone doesn't share their own opinion, which makes them just one pole of a binary I'd like to stay in the middle of, if I can, when judging a film.

At some point you're going to have to stop chasing the opinions of hypothetical people, sit down, and judge the film on its own terms based on its own achievements. Unless you really are that interested in conversion propaganda.
Black Hat wrote:Yeah I meant more generally when this discussion arises, do you think that you're susceptible to your own confirmation bias considering how you view the topic?
I am always susceptible to confirmation bias, and I'll leave it to others to point out when I've fallen into it.
Black Hat wrote:You lost me a little bit here, not sure what you mean by the 'dehumanizing' should be sufficient. Sufficient for what? Yes I agree you shouldn't be consciously appealing to this or that but I do think you have a responsibility to present whatever it is your depicting fairly or you risk the kinds of things brought up both here and in Zero Dark Thirty. I'm certainly not saying it's an easy thing to do but you have to start somewhere in my opinion.
Sufficient to make your criticism. You shouldn't need anything beyond that.
Black Hat wrote:I agree of the former but on the latter I think films like Argo have an effect. How profound, who knows? I do think they have an influence on consciousness tho.
Movies have effects. I don't think Argo's effect will be terribly political. It's not a movie that makes me antsy about what people in your country are going to think. Maybe I have more faith in average people or less faith in the power of the movies, who knows.

I would be interested in knowing how people in your country reacted to learning how deeply America messed up in their dealings with Iran (that was my biggest impression from watching the movie), but that's out of curiosity, it wouldn't affect my opinion of the film's worth.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#122 Post by kingofthejungle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:17 am

feihong wrote:To me this movie misses the boat in ways large and small. It's a film as indifferent to the quality of its performances as it is unleavened by inspired camerawork or by involved art direction. The film fails to create a tone or atmosphere of suspense--even though the historical record supplies nifty, readymade tropes in that regard, which are truly hard to miss. As a result, the suspense of the film is routine, entirely recycled from film and television of the last fifteen or so years. The picture as a whole is weakened by this generic approach, for in the premise of the film is a natural thriller, whose actual qualities of tension are unique and clearly detailed...and wholly ignored by the authors of the film.
I think you identify my problem with Argo rather succinctly here.

I certainly didn't hate the film, but it does seem rather generic escape-thriller fare. It lacks any distinction that might prompt a second viewing or a recommendation over other films of it's kind. As you point out, Argo avoids any insight into character or context that might elevate it to a challenging, or at the very least memorable, experience for the audience. It essentially plays as a remake of John Carpenter's Escape From New York, though with less style, satiric wit, and moral complication (not to mention less political bite - which is rather confounding given Argo's subject matter).

Argo's Best Picture win did seem a foregone conclusion given Hollywood's penchant for self-flattery, and it isn't the most exasperating choice the academy has ever made, but of the 5 nominees I got a chance to see this year (Argo, Lincoln, Silver Linings Playbook, Zero Dark Thirty, and Django) it was the film that provoked the least contemplation and/or aesthetic delight.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#123 Post by thirtyframesasecond » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:34 pm

It wasn't a great year and Amour was never going to win.
Black Hat wrote:I'd love to read a post or be linked to anybody explaining why Argo deserved best picture.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#124 Post by htom » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:09 pm

This article restates what former President Carter has been saying about Argo when he is asked about it. Certainly the runup to the Academy Awards prompted more scrutiny of the film's account of the involvement of the British, New Zealand and Canadian embassies in sheltering the embassy staffers before the CIA's role in their escape, but I think the Wiki articles on both the film and the operation itself covers the points about as thoroughly as I've heard up to this point. Without that knowledge I think screenwriter Chris Terrio's reference to "British and Sheardowns" in his acceptance speech last night just causes a little head scratching, in more ways than one.

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Re: Argo (Ben Affleck, 2012)

#125 Post by manicsounds » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:42 am

Warner Europe is releasing "Argo" with both theatrical and extended cuts on Blu-ray. The US version only has the theatrical cut.

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