Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I imagine it plays better with casual jazz fans, but it's a pretty well-known tale in jazz circles - at first, I kind of laughed at it. "All right, they fudged it." But the more I think about it, it can also be problematic - this isn't peripheral, especially with Whiplash it taps right into the heart of the film and it feels like a reflection of everything I don't like about the movie. (Still a technically accomplished film in the way it's put together, I will give it that.)
- Red Screamer
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Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I'm not sure the movie takes it to heart so much as Fletcher does. The film itself isn't exactly hunky dory with the psychological abuse of young people and shows many of its nasty results includinghearthesilence wrote:I imagine it plays better with casual jazz fans, but it's a pretty well-known tale in jazz circles - at first, I kind of laughed at it. "All right, they fudged it." But the more I think about it, it can also be problematic - this isn't peripheral, especially with Whiplash it taps right into the heart of the film and it feels like a reflection of everything I don't like about the movie. (Still a technically accomplished film in the way it's put together, I will give it that.)
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a suicide
- lacritfan
- Life is one big kevyip
- Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:39 pm
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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
The only qualm I have with Whiplash is the only time we see who Fletcher truly ishearthesilence wrote:I'm still baffled how both Clint Eastwood's BIRD and this film have, in different ways, distorted and inflated that story about Charlie Parker and Jo Jones. Jones didn't come close to physically hurting Bird and the gesture of tossing a cymbal on to the floor was done as a joke. And it didn't haunt Bird for the rest of his life either.
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happens while he plays piano in the jazz club before he sees Neiman. The entire Bird story he tells Neiman can be chalked up to him wanting to manipulate him into playing in his band at Lincoln Center. So as much as I want to believe that is what truly motivates Fletcher I can't entirely buy into it.
- warren oates
- Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:16 pm
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I agree with all the praise this film has gotten, especially the comments by domino and napoleon. It's just so rare to see any kind of film nowadays where you really don't know what's going to happen next or at the end of the story until right up to the final moment.
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One film I couldn't stop thinking about afterward was Cassavetes' Opening Night. I know that Chazelle has stated that Cassavetes was a big influence on his first feature, but the central relationship here -- between two creative collaborators each pursuing their own idea of artistic excellence -- and the exhilarating/excruciating and ultimately ambiguous performance climax seemed to mirror the power struggle between Gena Rowlands and her playwright and director in Opening Night. What's refreshing to me about the way that Chazelle has incorporated this influence is it's not obvious at all. He's clearly made it his own and done something new with it.
- Murdoch
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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
More praise for this film from me. I don't know what to spoilertag or not, so off everything goes into a big black box.
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Simmons' obsessive music conductor is perhaps the best version of the inspirational/harshly critical teacher trope I've seen. I think why it works so well outside of his superb performance is how he doesn't seem to connect with any of his pupils but Neiman. Sure, each of them strive for his praise and go through hell to get it, but Neiman's borderline sociopathic persona appears to be the perfect complement to Fletcher's abusive style. And as others have noted, the script rightly criticizes this method, but only to play devil's advocate against the well-trod theory that great adversity can craft a genius.
I'm with Domino in terms of the script's great pacing. Every second of the way my sister and I were swapping theories over how the tumultuous relationship would resolve itself: Both of them dead? A suicide? Simmons revealing he was the one that stole the folder during the first competition to test the other drummer's knowledge of the music? In the end it wraps up better than anything I thought up. Perhaps the long drum solo could've been cut back a little, but I loved the dynamic between Neiman and Fletcher as they try to fuck each other over only to eventually come together. Fletcher finds his Charlie Parker, even if it is after years of abusing people to get to him.
I'm with Domino in terms of the script's great pacing. Every second of the way my sister and I were swapping theories over how the tumultuous relationship would resolve itself: Both of them dead? A suicide? Simmons revealing he was the one that stole the folder during the first competition to test the other drummer's knowledge of the music? In the end it wraps up better than anything I thought up. Perhaps the long drum solo could've been cut back a little, but I loved the dynamic between Neiman and Fletcher as they try to fuck each other over only to eventually come together. Fletcher finds his Charlie Parker, even if it is after years of abusing people to get to him.
- copen
- Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:43 pm
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
jazz listeners hated this movie
http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index. ... uddy-rich/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index. ... uddy-rich/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- bearcuborg
- Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:30 am
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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
Myself, a jazz fantatic, and former player found it silly. It was impossible to take seriously.
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
It generally got trashed by anyone with a real understanding of jazz. I wish this was a case where I could say "they're right, the movie gets jazz all wrong, but the movie actually doesn't have anything to do with jazz" but its take on jazz is inextricable from its understanding of art in general. It's been a while, but I came away from it thinking it had gotten everything about any real artistic endeavor wrong, mistaking it for a sports competition.
And honestly, Buddy Rich? Try Max Roach, kid.
And honestly, Buddy Rich? Try Max Roach, kid.
- jorencain
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:45 am
Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I'm a jazz musician and jazz band director. There is no way that I would ever act the way Simmons does, and I don't know anybody in my field that feels extreme behavior like this would be effective. My only problem is that the band is portrayed as one of the top groups in the country. There very well may be directors exactly like this, but they are not leading the top college jazz bands.
But it's not a documentary. To me, it's about an abusive relationship, where the two of them found a compatible teacher/student to feed off of. Nieman needs to be treated like garbage in order to grow and excel, and - as Murdoch said above - Fletcher latches onto him. That was my takeaway; it played better as a portrait of an abusive or unhealthy relationship, rather than as an accurate portrait of jazz education.
But it's not a documentary. To me, it's about an abusive relationship, where the two of them found a compatible teacher/student to feed off of. Nieman needs to be treated like garbage in order to grow and excel, and - as Murdoch said above - Fletcher latches onto him. That was my takeaway; it played better as a portrait of an abusive or unhealthy relationship, rather than as an accurate portrait of jazz education.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I'd rather love this movie than love jazz then
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- Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:58 pm
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I am am amateur jazz musician and yes the portrayal is crazy, but that didn't hold it back from being powerful for me. When I started watching it, I just wanted to have a movie in the background for half an hour while I did other things. But it was so powerful and entertaining that I watched the whole thing and couldn't look away.
Despite the circumstances of the process, I find it incredibly admirable that the movie emphasizes hard work over talent. Too many people think that something is futile if it doesn't come naturally or of it does, then they don't need to work at it.
Despite the circumstances of the process, I find it incredibly admirable that the movie emphasizes hard work over talent. Too many people think that something is futile if it doesn't come naturally or of it does, then they don't need to work at it.
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
This just became a bad teen romance film. Now son/missy, when you're older you realize how foolish you were to throw away so much for that jackass...domino harvey wrote:I'd rather love this movie than love jazz then
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
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- colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
Nice.domino harvey wrote:Jazz Schmazz
I'm curious to ask since there are people with experience of the subject in the thread: is that Ken Burn's documentary series on Jazz a good introduction to the subject?
- copen
- Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:43 pm
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
No, it's not.colinr0380 wrote:is that Ken Burn's documentary series on Jazz a good introduction to the subject?
You'd be better off watching this:
The Sound Of Jazz (CBS-TV 1957)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMkHxEyXV5Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Especially the item that starts at 25:00
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
No. This has the same merits of any Ken Burns series - a big budget and lots of cooperation for archival material. When it was playing ad nauseam on PBS affiliates and on United Airlines flights, it was nice to pop in once in a while just to see what clip was playing.colinr0380 wrote:I'm curious to ask since there are people with experience of the subject in the thread: is that Ken Burn's documentary series on Jazz a good introduction to the subject?
But it's poorly done for many reasons covered by jazz critic Howard Reich, all of which have been echoed elsewhere. A massive shame given the exposure and resources. Ken Burns didn't listen to much jazz before he embarked on this project - he admitted to owning only a few albums - and he got Wynton Marsalis and I think Stanley Crouch to guide much of the content, which was a huge mistake because they've been known to hold the most controversial (many would say overly conservative) views on jazz history. Mix that in with Burns usual problems with the "great man" approach to history as well as hyperbole in assessing any type of art history, and it was a recipe for controversy.
If you want a book, I think Ted Gioia wrote a solid history book - works especially well in the era of Spotify since most of the music is probably available via streaming.
But if you want a more curated approach, I highly recommend the Smithsonian box set. I haven't heard the recent update (which was a major overhaul), but the previous five CD version curated by Martin Williams is a classic, not just for the music but for Williams' written guide - that booklet is essential.
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
Good introduction? Yes, but by no means comprehensive nor definitive. It's best in the early episodes that focus on the origins of Jazz and loses focus in the later ones.colinr0380 wrote:I'm curious to ask since there are people with experience of the subject in the thread: is that Ken Burn's documentary series on Jazz a good introduction to the subject?
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I'll second Werewolf's phrasing. It functioned somewhat as an introduction to jazz for me (though I knew enough to be put off of the handling of cold, fusion, etc.) and certainly deals with a lot of the greats whose influences and influenced are a great way to develop oneself with the genre. It's also a pretty entertaining and fun doc whatever misgivings one may have about its treatment of the subject.
- barryconvex
- billy..biff..scooter....tommy
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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
my biggest complaint with the movie-why buddy rich? ok, buddy rich was a great drummer but why is he always the default? art blakey anyone? or yes, max roach, elvin jones, philly joe jones or art taylor? the list goes on and on...And honestly, Buddy Rich? Try Max Roach, kid.
- bearcuborg
- Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:30 am
- Location: Philadelphia via Chicago
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I never got that either. Then again, I don't understand anyone that would rather love this dopey movie than jazz itself.
First of all, it creates a myth of the Charlie Parker story. Charlie didn't become a better musician by ditching a girl, and learning to play really fast alone in his room. That's the weird thing about this movie, hardly anyone plays any jazz. The rest of the movie is a goofy cliche. I did like seeing Paul Reiser pour Milkduds over his popcorn though.
First of all, it creates a myth of the Charlie Parker story. Charlie didn't become a better musician by ditching a girl, and learning to play really fast alone in his room. That's the weird thing about this movie, hardly anyone plays any jazz. The rest of the movie is a goofy cliche. I did like seeing Paul Reiser pour Milkduds over his popcorn though.
- Shrew
- The Untamed One
- Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:22 am
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I'm not a jazz expert, but didn't Buddy Rich also have a reputation as a difficult band leader and prone to bullying behavior? In that case, Teller's idolization of Rich explains why he puts up with Simmons and even respects him a bit. It also fits with a drummer given to constant isolated practice trying to perfect his technique rather than someone who enjoys the communal aspect of a jazz band.
As I've said in previous posts, I don't think this is an accurate depiction of jazz or education but it is a good movie about abusive mentor relationships, and that there is some sense in the film that this is not "real" jazz. I do sort of agree with jorencain that this might've been a bit better if it were at a high school with a respected but not elite jazz program--something where Simmons could get away with some BS, but have chip on his shoulder about being kept out of the big leagues.
As I've said in previous posts, I don't think this is an accurate depiction of jazz or education but it is a good movie about abusive mentor relationships, and that there is some sense in the film that this is not "real" jazz. I do sort of agree with jorencain that this might've been a bit better if it were at a high school with a respected but not elite jazz program--something where Simmons could get away with some BS, but have chip on his shoulder about being kept out of the big leagues.
Last edited by Shrew on Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- copen
- Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:43 pm
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
Buddy Rich - Bus Tapes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omID1prJHFo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omID1prJHFo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- JeffreySchroeck
- Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:29 am
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
Hi! Long time lurker...
I think the question of whether or not this film gets jazz, especially Charlie Parker, right is unnecessary because this isn't a music movie, it's a sports movie with instrumentalists. The instructor's main goal is for his students to attain perfection through repetitions, with the ultimate goal being that they can win a first place trophy by playing some idealized version of a music that was created by experiment and accident in after hours clubs, not in an academy or on an ampitheater stage. The idea of a musician finding their own way creatively would not even occur to him - there's only a right way and a wrong way. Damien Chazelle may or may not even have thought of the story this way, but if he did, I'd bet he was thinking of someone like Wynton Marsalis holding court at Lincoln Center trying to determine what is or isn't jazz.
As for the amount of attention Andrew gets versus the rest of the band, the filmmaking is, from what I remember, mostly from Andrew's point of view (with a ton of great, subjective camera work), so it makes sense that we'd see Fletcher seem to focus solely on him. It's how any nervous underling would see how things were.
I think the question of whether or not this film gets jazz, especially Charlie Parker, right is unnecessary because this isn't a music movie, it's a sports movie with instrumentalists. The instructor's main goal is for his students to attain perfection through repetitions, with the ultimate goal being that they can win a first place trophy by playing some idealized version of a music that was created by experiment and accident in after hours clubs, not in an academy or on an ampitheater stage. The idea of a musician finding their own way creatively would not even occur to him - there's only a right way and a wrong way. Damien Chazelle may or may not even have thought of the story this way, but if he did, I'd bet he was thinking of someone like Wynton Marsalis holding court at Lincoln Center trying to determine what is or isn't jazz.
As for the amount of attention Andrew gets versus the rest of the band, the filmmaking is, from what I remember, mostly from Andrew's point of view (with a ton of great, subjective camera work), so it makes sense that we'd see Fletcher seem to focus solely on him. It's how any nervous underling would see how things were.
- denti alligator
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:36 pm
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Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I saw this on the plane back home from Switzerland. To me it was a film about abuse. Then, in the final scene, I realized the film maker didn't mean it to be. That, in and of itself, is brilliant. But I didn't buy it. The film seemed to let Fletcher get away with it.
Still, riveting drama.
Still, riveting drama.
-
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:45 pm
Re: Whiplash (Damien Chazelle, 2014)
I don't know - maybe I'm a bit rusty on the details, but I always thought that just because there's that momentary "you did good, kid" wink of approval, and he really is playing his ass off -- this doesn't excuse what it took to get there. I feel like it's a pretty ambivalent ending in that regard, though maybe the sheer excitement of the music makes it difficult to feel too ambivalent? Either way, a captivating film - feels a bit like if Michael Mann translated his trademark stoic professionalism (with the relationship-dropping, single-minded commitment et al) to the world of not crime but jazz music. (Unsurprisingly, Mann LOVED the film).denti alligator wrote:I saw this on the plane back home from Switzerland. To me it was a film about abuse. Then, in the final scene, I realized the film maker didn't mean it to be. That, in and of itself, is brilliant. But I didn't buy it. The film seemed to let Fletcher get away with it.
Still, riveting drama.