The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

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tenia
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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#126 Post by tenia » Tue May 15, 2018 11:19 am

mfunk9786 wrote:But, I mean, if you ask of your film critics that they like everything you like or suspect that you'll like (which, why bother with film criticism then?), YMMV.
Part of it is indeed to find reviewers whose tastes will be similar to mine, very simply because I have a crapload of backlog to watch PLUS all the new releases, so like to be able to rely on somebody else filtering this out for me. I already have some, including a French one whose tastes are vastly similar to mine. But I don't mind well-thought pieces that I end up disagreeing with. It happens, but it can be enlighting.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#127 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue May 15, 2018 11:24 am

That makes sense, of course, if you're using film reviews for practical purposes. I was referring more to someone who's already made up their mind about something like this film, for example.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#128 Post by black&huge » Tue May 15, 2018 12:48 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
black&huge wrote:Finally a review. Unfortunately it's from The Playlist. Spoilers of course.
That's a pretty good film critic you're slagging off, so you're pretty much just living up to the sort of mostly accurate stereotype she's deriding in this thoughtful review of a film you haven't seen. I'm gonna go with the word of Jessica Kiang over the word of new CriterionForum.org user black&huge 100 times out of 100, even if at my own peril
That is the first review I've ever read from that person and I don't think it's out of the question that it is probably a terrible one to start with and especially that it's a "me me me" attention calling piece. What I was most tired with was the hypocrisy of calling out the people who react by taking the opposite opinion for the only reason of being opposed to that writer's opinion when in all reality they're the ones perpetuating and even instigating by even giving mention and then bashing them as a preemptive "win" by doing so.

It's not difficult to see the writer is taking everything too personally and then having the groundless claim of a superiority with defending the filmmaker in the past and pointing out in the article itself that "he hates me and everyone else who defended him". Well thank god movies aren't made to be seen by literally one person besides the filmmaker.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#129 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue May 15, 2018 1:30 pm

There's only one person doing any "me me me" attention calling here.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#130 Post by Big Ben » Tue May 15, 2018 1:32 pm

I don't really think it's worth getting worked up over one review either. Obviously she didn't just dislike the film she hated it and she's perfectly entitled to this opinion. We'll be getting a wider consensus over the next few days anyway.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#131 Post by domino harvey » Tue May 15, 2018 1:33 pm

Jesus, I should have heeded the warnings: that review is extremely spoiler-heavy. I stopped reading after a few paragraphs but didn't realize she was going to just give away so much. Be warned

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#132 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue May 15, 2018 1:40 pm

That's not the only review that openly discusses the plot - there are positive ones that do too. So proceed with caution if you don't want to know what happens in the film, although it sounds like said plot is rather beside the point.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#133 Post by black&huge » Tue May 15, 2018 1:58 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:There's only one person doing any "me me me" attention calling here.
Yeah thanks for agreeing

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#134 Post by Finch » Tue May 15, 2018 2:58 pm

I don't know but on the day that Israeli snipers gunned down children and adults in Palestine, I thought "really? people getting upset over children getting shot in a fictional film?" and what were some people expecting going into a Von Trier film about a serial killer anyway? Now, I'm not a fan of the man but his tendency to want to wind people up has been a known thing for a long time. This is the same type of crowd that expects David Lynch to provide a straightforward narrative or at least some answers. I don't know, this outrage just feels like, have some people been living under a rock for the longest time or what?

Personally, I can take or leave von Trier most of the time (I did like Melancholia though) but people rising to his bait time and again really ought to know better. And the people who get personal in their attacks on the children's playground that's Twitter are bellends: take offense at the man's work if you must but their failure to keep it professional says more about them than it does about von Trier. The self-righteousness of this crowd creates a nastier stench than von Trier's attempts to get a rise out of folks.


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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#136 Post by Noiretirc » Tue May 15, 2018 4:49 pm

dda1996a wrote:
Noiretirc wrote:I'm sure that all of these people adore Schindler's List though.
Yeah, can you please not? Thanks
Can I please not....what, exactly?

Seems to me that some people are slagging LVT and this film as neither art or entertainment because children die. But Spielberg gets a free pass? Because his bad guys were Nazis with terrible English with German accents? Because any so-called "epic" film about the Holocaust must automatically be both art and entertainment?

Please help me understand what I am missing here.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#137 Post by Noiretirc » Tue May 15, 2018 4:51 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:How many walkouts is this thread gonna get?
Yeah, after reading a couple more comments following my previous post above, I think I'm just going to watch Salo now.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#138 Post by MongooseCmr » Tue May 15, 2018 5:02 pm

If it makes you feel better Spielberg’s mix of utter reverence for the “heroes” of the war in Saving Private Ryan and Schindler’s List and total glee in showing those people get killed for entertainment has never sat right with me either. I obviously haven’t seen this but at least it appears honest in its sadism and not using gas chamber showers for gotcha gags while crying about the ones who did die in it.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#139 Post by Big Ben » Tue May 15, 2018 5:06 pm

There's a contextual difference. And I'm more than certain ratings boards like the BBFC will agree especially if he harmed an animal (The duck).

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#140 Post by MichaelB » Tue May 15, 2018 5:10 pm

Big Ben wrote:There's a contextual difference. And I'm more than certain ratings boards like the BBFC will agree especially if he harmed an animal (The duck).
I think we can very safely assume that if he can digitally fake a graphic double penetration scene involving Charlotte Gainsbourg, he's more than capable of faking something like that.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#141 Post by Cremildo » Tue May 15, 2018 5:26 pm

MongooseCmr wrote:If it makes you feel better Spielberg’s mix of utter reverence for the “heroes” of the war in Saving Private Ryan and Schindler’s List and total glee in showing those people get killed for entertainment has never sat right with me either. I obviously haven’t seen this but at least it appears honest in its sadism and not using gas chamber showers for gotcha gags while crying about the ones who did die in it.
The "glee" you speak of might be a projection of yours, informed perhaps by a dislike of the filmmaker. There isn't any glee in his depiction of death in either film. On the contrary, they're two of the most harrowing mainstream films ever made on the subject.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#142 Post by MongooseCmr » Tue May 15, 2018 7:03 pm

“Glee” was a little much in hindsight. What I meant was more that he puts a lot of energy in creating death scenes in both films. The ghetto cleansing and Omaha beach segments feel like a boy daydreaming in history class, imagining more and more extravagant ways historical atrocities played out. When he adds humor throughout Schindler’s List it comes off even worse.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#143 Post by Brian C » Tue May 15, 2018 9:40 pm

MongooseCmr wrote:“Glee” was a little much in hindsight. What I meant was more that he puts a lot of energy in creating death scenes in both films. The ghetto cleansing and Omaha beach segments feel like a boy daydreaming in history class, imagining more and more extravagant ways historical atrocities played out. When he adds humor throughout Schindler’s List it comes off even worse.
What's so unusually "extravagant" about those scenes? They're obviously designed to have a bracing visceral impact, but I don't see how that sets them apart from ... well, pretty much movie with intense subject matter ever made. I just don't see how your description of them applies.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#144 Post by black&huge » Tue May 15, 2018 10:22 pm

Brian C wrote:What's so unusually "extravagant" about those scenes? They're obviously designed to have a bracing visceral impact, but I don't see how that sets them apart from ... well, pretty much movie with intense subject matter ever made. I just don't see how your description of them applies.
Because putting that much thought and effort into graphic realism requires a certain sense of being "cool" with it. As in you're tapping into some area of the mind where the difference between showing violence as a statement and as entertainment value are extremely blurred. This isn't completely the fault of the creator because so many things influence how we see and process violence culturally it really can't be helped. But let's say you are helming a movie based on some real event that you wanna really get across the brutality of it. There you are overseeing how real the prosthetics will look, how well the squibs will go off, how appropriately maimed an extra or dummy looks all to suit your needs and satisfaction as the creator that you feel will get the point across.

Because it hinges on your satisfaction that it looks and works properly on a technical level it is very hard to separate from a certain fun you partake in watching it work without a hitch. Maybe it wasn't the intention for it be spectacle but that is what it took to convey the impact. As well as your technical team probably looking at photos of real dead people to help you solidify the authenticity as they work on your special effects. No matter what it's still using real atrocity for fiction. Because something is based on a real event does not matter. If it's being adapted into a film it's all in a fictional environment unless you want to make bona fide snuff.

That's really where the line is drawn. Just because you the viewer got the message doesn't hide the truth that what it took to make it look like that onscreen took a certain degree of viewing it all as entertainment value.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#145 Post by Brian C » Tue May 15, 2018 10:41 pm

black&huge wrote:Because putting that much thought and effort into graphic realism requires a certain sense of being "cool" with it. As in you're tapping into some area of the mind where the difference between showing violence as a statement and as entertainment value are extremely blurred. This isn't completely the fault of the creator because so many things influence how we see and process violence culturally it really can't be helped. But let's say you are helming a movie based on some real event that you wanna really get across the brutality of it. There you are overseeing how real the prosthetics will look, how well the squibs will go off, how appropriately maimed an extra or dummy looks all to suit your needs and satisfaction as the creator that you feel will get the point across.

Because it hinges on your satisfaction that it looks and works properly on a technical level it is very hard to separate from a certain fun you partake in watching it work without a hitch. Maybe it wasn't the intention for it be spectacle but that is what it took to convey the impact. As well as your technical team probably looking at photos of real dead people to help you solidify the authenticity as they work on your special effects. No matter what it's still using real atrocity for fiction. Because something is based on a real event does not matter. If it's being adapted into a film it's all in a fictional environment unless you want to make bona fide snuff.

That's really where the line is drawn. Just because you the viewer got the message doesn't hide the truth that what it took to make it look like that onscreen took a certain degree of viewing it all as entertainment value.
I'm not clear - are you applying this particularly to Spielberg (and LVT) or are you condemning onscreen violence generally? I'd repeat my question - what sets these movies apart from any other countless movies that portray atrocities or even more routine violence?

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#146 Post by black&huge » Tue May 15, 2018 11:10 pm

Brian C wrote: I'm not clear - are you applying this particularly to Spielberg (and LVT) or are you condemning onscreen violence generally? I'd repeat my question - what sets these movies apart from any other countless movies that portray atrocities or even more routine violence?
I was talking about Spielberg. I'm not condemning onscreen violence either. He was specifically brought up earlier so it was appropriate to focus on him. Spielberg's reputation as a hollywood filmmaker known to hop back and forth from popcorn to historical makes a point with the latter of focusing on the realism. it doesn't give him special recognition because of it. He still treats certain elements in his historical films with a certain underlying entertainment value which I already explained starts from the technical level.

And to repeat once again, if the viewer doesn't literally see how it could be entertaining is not the main point. The point is that it's coming from a place where recreating graphic realism and entertainment are extremely blurred. It underlies most of his filmography. He hasn't done much to prove he's not all about spectacle. That includes when he decides to make a historical film.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#147 Post by Brian C » Tue May 15, 2018 11:58 pm

You're trying to draw a distinction between things - "entertainment" vs. "historical film" - that are not distinct.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#148 Post by black&huge » Wed May 16, 2018 12:50 am

Brian C wrote:You're trying to draw a distinction between things - "entertainment" vs. "historical film" - that are not distinct.
So then what exactly is your confusion?

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#149 Post by nitin » Wed May 16, 2018 1:00 am

Re that Jessica Kiang review, that is disappointingly unlike her normal reviews. I find her normally to be a very good reviewer, even (and especially) when I do not agree with her about a particular film.

Clearly she really hated this film but she can (and usually does) write better.

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Re: The House That Jack Built (Lars von Trier, 2018)

#150 Post by black&huge » Wed May 16, 2018 1:29 am

nitin wrote:Re that Jessica Kiang review, that is disappointingly unlike her normal reviews. I find her normally to be a very good reviewer, even (and especially) when I do not agree with her about a particular film.

Clearly she really hated this film but she can (and usually does) write better.
Thanks I'll keep this in mind if I stumble upon another review of hers. After reading several more reviews today that actually reviewed the movie I'm still puzzled how hers got published.

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