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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:29 pm 
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Brian C wrote:
Are you serious? You’re complaining about someone stating an opinion as if it was fact?

Not at all...? I'm clarifying that I'm 100% on board with that aspect (and actively participate in such an approach to posting my opinion here) in an effort to alleviate the kind of misunderstanding you've had above, and to highlight that I only took issue with the dismissive one-letter reply.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Oh, ok. I misunderstood, apologies.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:04 pm 
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It strikes me the Best Picture and Best Director awards have gotten kind of backwards, and that Nolan's remained the strong frontrunner as kind of confirming that. Since we've entered the brave new world of cinema since Argo and there's almost always a split between the two awards, it seems the big, flashy movie with very impressive productions are what win the best Director prize whereas the small, personal stories that are more emotional and repressed are taking the picture prize.

I'm well aware that practically nobody actually looks at Best Picture as what it's meant to be (the best production, ie producing) but I'm very interested in how it seems the Best Director prize has taken up that slack. It's pretty silly that the only film in the past five years to win both top prizes was... Birdman (a movie that clearly has something impressive going on with its production but is generally of a much smaller scale than the other Best Director winners of late).

Not that this adds anything, really - just struck me when watching Dunkirk again how it's biggest point in its favor is its utterly impeccable production, which seems almost an afterthought for the top prize nowadays.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:06 pm 
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mfunk9786 wrote:
Brian C wrote:
Are you serious? You’re complaining about someone stating an opinion as if it was fact?

Not at all...? I'm clarifying that I'm 100% on board with that aspect (and actively participate in such an approach to posting my opinion here) in an effort to alleviate the kind of misunderstanding you've had above, and to highlight that I only took issue with the dismissive one-letter reply.

Yeah, you know what? I was being an asshole. Sorry mfunk, I disagree with your perspective but you've as much a right to it as I do mine


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:07 pm 
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It is one thousand percent okay, like I said in the original post, my intent was not to pick a fight [or, I'd add, to put anyone on blast with any notable measure of ferocity] but to point out that it was a crummy thing to see when I was catching up on the thread. C'est la vie.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Oh, and also, going back to something said in this thread a few days back, it strikes me as while it's easy to say "well, we'll never have Crash happen again!" that Three Billboards winning (which still seems weirdly possible, now that the backlash narrative has moved on to other films) would come close to the potential firestorm of "probably good-intentioned but actually deeply offensive" from the critical mass. McDonagh is more respected than Haggis ever will be, but a lot of respectable people feel seriously offended by it in a way that I can't think of for a major player since Crash. (I like both these films, but just noting a comparison I can see).


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Crash has less problematic intentions and a much less problematic execution than Three Billboards when it comes to issues of race, domestic violence, and law enforcement. Crash's place in infamy would indeed be permanently upended if Three Billboards walked away with Best Pic, at least in my eyes - and that is not to be misconstrued as an apologia for Paul Haggis, who will likely never direct another meaningful film, let alone one in the Oscar discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:32 pm 
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domino harvey wrote:
Literally anyone could have played that role and brought the same nothingness to it. Every other speaking part in the movie is a better performance
Given your usual astuteness I find this a peculiar take considering the whole movie revolved around Kaluuywa. The other actors wouldn't have been able to turn in those performances were it not for Kaluuywa's simultaneous ability of reacting to them while also providing an outlet for the audience to build understanding of how ludicrous but oh so very real point the film made about racism. All of this accomplished almost entirely thru Kaluuywa's face, especially his eyes. The fact that his contribution to the film has been overlooked is in fact a testament to the greatness of his performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:43 pm 
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I think that's what works best about that performance to me, Black Hat - it's the lack of ill will in the ways that the character is guarded early on, and then never seeing him let his guard down to the situation he finds himself in. The audience is skeptical of Allison Williams' (also great but a little over-the-top, especially in the film's final moments) family, and so is Kaluuywa, without being outwardly (or even inwardly, really) dismissive of them until it's clear that something is very, very wrong.

But it's the moments when he's quietly fearful that strike me as very tricky to execute, coupled with that protective bubble being explosively punctured in the psychoanalysis scene, which is the film's best directed and acted and earns its status as the most memed and remembered of 2017 among mainstream filmgoers almost from the first weekend Get Out released, that are very impressive. Kaluuywa's ability to provide a way into such a sticky, specific type of discomfort for a diverse swath of viewers is a huge reason why the film works as well as it does in the first place.

Being an audience surrogate is a pretty thankless job, but this is a very tricky concept to be an audience surrogate for.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:21 pm 
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I didn't mean the other performances were particularly good, they were just better (to me) than the central one. I don't find the film exceptional in the slightest by any metric, though as I said in its dedicated thread, I'm all for the Oscars going outside their comfort zone if they pick this as Best Pic


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:03 pm 
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I confess I don't think a lot of Academy voters who are voting for Get Out aren't doing so because of the performances. Peele has openly stated he knows that some of the ideas are goofy as shit and that the film owes itself to the absolute shlockiest B movies of the past. Get Out is still winning major awards despite all this which signals in some small part that those parts don't matter all that much to those voters and critics. Get Out regardless of what any of us say is important because it's the first film of it's type (Black Horror specifically) by a Black director to achieve this sort of critical success (Whether in the Box Office or in acclaim period.) That alone may be enough to push it right through the perpetual awards gate. Everyone here knows that Academy voters like to vote for the new hotness not always the films that will be future proof stone cold classics. But that's a truism amongst the film community. We all know that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that for the moment I don't see anything challenging the Get Out train (Although dueling trains would be pretty badass) regardless of any perceived blemishes we as individuals may see.

I'll stan for Roger Deakins' work on Blade Runner though.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:14 pm 
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If any film this year is likely going to have legs not based on its in-a-vacuum quality level but its cultural significance and likelihood to be, say, taught in schools as an example of the intersection of culture and art of this era, it's going to be Get Out. It's not the best film this year, but it's got quite a bit more to offer than being the "new hotness."


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:15 pm 
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mfunk9786 wrote:
If any film this year is likely going to have legs not based on its in-a-vacuum quality level but its cultural significance and likelihood to be, say, taught in schools as an example of the intersection of culture and art of this era, it's going to be Get Out. It's not the best film this year, but it's got quite a bit more to offer than being the "new hotness."


My term was admittedly crude but I think everyone knows what I mean. And they've already taught/are teaching classes about Get Out. Can't say that about Three Billboards!


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Get Out certainly wins the topicality award, but I was surprised how relevant Shape of Water ended up being. Def more than Three Billboards and its hot take on the Catholic Church..


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:35 am 
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mfunk9786 wrote:
If any film this year is likely going to have legs not based on its in-a-vacuum quality level but its cultural significance and likelihood to be, say, taught in schools as an example of the intersection of culture and art of this era, it's going to be Get Out. It's not the best film this year, but it's got quite a bit more to offer than being the "new hotness."
Well said. Outside of Star Wars, Blade Runner and maybe one or two other I'm forgetting right now it's the only that'll be remembered 10, 20 years from now.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:33 am 
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Black Hat wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:
If any film this year is likely going to have legs not based on its in-a-vacuum quality level but its cultural significance and likelihood to be, say, taught in schools as an example of the intersection of culture and art of this era, it's going to be Get Out. It's not the best film this year, but it's got quite a bit more to offer than being the "new hotness."
Well said. Outside of Star Wars, Blade Runner and maybe one or two other I'm forgetting right now it's the only that'll be remembered 10, 20 years from now.


I deeply resent this kind of specious argument that is literally impossible to agree upon. Firstly, because the notion of something becoming "forgotten" by culture is utterly ludicrous. Art doesn't need to aspire to this longterm cultural significance that you've put it against, because that goes above and beyond what its supposed to do, which is represent something now. I don't care how I'll feel in 2040. I can say, "no, American Made is what will really endure as opposed to that trash Blade Runner 2049." It's not actually an argument for anything - just me saying, no, I'm right, you'll realize I'm right down the line. There's a case to be made that Get Out does have particular significance to themes and ideas (socially and politically) that seem like they are going to play a large part in our collective culture going forward - but I'd also be more than happy to argue that The Great Wall also fulfills that criteria with considerably more subtlety (not the same themes, hopefully obviously, but several essential underlying ideas).

We do remember more than 5 movies each year. Just because you can't walk down the street and talk to every person about some obscure 80s Best Picture nominee (A Soldier's Story immediately comes to mind) doesn't mean it didn't mean anything to anybody and everyone's memory of it has totally absconded. Crash mattered just as much as Three Billboards matters just as much as Get Out matters just as much as Home Again matters. Get Out has a particular relevance right now, but please don't just write off almost every other film as potentially being irrelevant to future discourse when we have no idea where the conversation will be then.

This post is probably mostly nonsense I'm sorry, your post just really irked me the wrong way, I'm sorry if it comes across like I'm trying to swipe at you I'm not trying to!


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:37 am 
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Merely because none of us have a crystal ball doesn't make it a worthless bit of speculation. And you might remember hundreds of films each year, but it doesn't mean the culture at large does in a meaningful way, and speaking about the culture at large does not mean an inherent exclusion of any single person within it.

I think you're getting too worked up about the literal specifics of this kind of speculation, but I get too worked up about everything, so it's nice to meet you, kettle.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:42 am 
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Get Out deals with contemporary race relations in the US without preaching to the choir and without being a traditionally awards-bait movie. It's not a movie that's supposed to make you feel virtuous for watching it, it's a genre film and it works as such. Apart from being perceptive and smart, it's fun and that's the way to make the medicine go down. Maybe it's not my favorite movie of 2017 either (though it comes close) but it's the film I will be rooting for the most for best picture.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:48 am 
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It depends on what's nominated, but yes, it winning would indeed be the best story of 2017 above any other narrative, perhaps even PTA, and that's coming from someone who would love to see him finally win those top prizes. But I still think Lady Bird has the best shot at Best Picture, probably with a Best Director split going to someone like Nolan.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Again, I just deeply resent whatever the first film to be released in each year is that's an Oscar player due to always being the one insisting things need to come out in the Fall and so I somehow end up being the anti-Get Out guy. Happened last year with Hell or High Water too (though that film was obviously something to root against anyway).

I'm absolutely shocked that Gold Derby's Oscar odds have now changed to a three-way tie for the top prize, with Lady Bird (in 1st), the Post, and Dunkirk now all at even money. It does seem like it's coalescing around those three a bit despite the recent shift from some to be high on Get Out's chances, and it'll be interesting to see how this shakes out what with the Golden Globes on Sunday (not an important Oscar front runner, but in particular the Lady Bird/Get Out Best Comedy race is the one to watch).


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:10 pm 
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mfunk9786 wrote:
Merely because none of us have a crystal ball doesn't make it a worthless bit of speculation.

It's funny, because this is exactly what makes it a worthless bit of speculation.

But worthless speculation isn't necessarily a bad thing. And to that end, I think you guys probably have this backwards. The fact that Get Out presses cultural hot buttons right now I think makes it less likely that it will keep that relevance in the future. A film that's really of its moment is almost definitionally not a film of the next moment. Our present cultural moment will pass, the conversation will shift, and the odds of the film being as applicable to whatever new conversations arise strike me as ... well, maybe better than, say, Disclosure but still not great.

And stripped of its cultural cachet, what's left? Even the film's biggest fans don't seem to think that it's all that remarkable of a piece of filmmaking, as far as that goes. And not to put words in Big Ben's mouth, but this is how I took his "new hotness" label - even the film's biggest fans mostly seem reluctant to praise it too much outside of its right-now-this-instant relevance to wider cultural issues. So once the moment passes...?


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:18 pm 
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Ribs wrote:
Again, I just deeply resent whatever the first film to be released in each year is that's an Oscar player due to always being the one insisting things need to come out in the Fall and so I somehow end up being the anti-Get Out guy. Happened last year with Hell or High Water too (though that film was obviously something to root against anyway).

And I thought the primary complaint about awards season for years was that those earlier-in-the-year releases were unfairly ignored in favor of late year films! It does indeed seem to have flipped in an interesting way.

Re: Get Out - the issues it explores are going to continue to change and evolve, but it will remain prescient for this time period, and when this (by any measure difficult) time period is being discussed, that film will likely be part of the discussion. And considering that race relations never seem to be progressing as far as we all like to think they are in any given era, unfortunately something like this will probably have real-time legs longer than we'd like it to, as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Brian C wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:
Merely because none of us have a crystal ball doesn't make it a worthless bit of speculation.

It's funny, because this is exactly what makes it a worthless bit of speculation.

But worthless speculation isn't necessarily a bad thing. And to that end, I think you guys probably have this backwards. The fact that Get Out presses cultural hot buttons right now I think makes it less likely that it will keep that relevance in the future. A film that's really of its moment is almost definitionally not a film of the next moment. Our present cultural moment will pass, the conversation will shift, and the odds of the film being as applicable to whatever new conversations arise strike me as ... well, maybe better than, say, Disclosure but still not great.

And stripped of its cultural cachet, what's left? Even the film's biggest fans don't seem to think that it's all that remarkable of a piece of filmmaking, as far as that goes. And not to put words in Big Ben's mouth, but this is how I took his "new hotness" label - even the film's biggest fans mostly seem reluctant to praise it too much outside of its right-now-this-instant relevance to wider cultural issues. So once the moment passes...?


The way things are going in the US I’m not as optimistic as you are that Get Out won’t still be relevant in the future. Apart from that, where is the rule that a film has to be a timeless classic ? A film that speaks to our times intelligently may be needed more than now one than one whose issues and values are timeless. The canon of film history will reward those films, but awards can be about now.

I wouldn’t argue that The Stepford Wives is in any way as good a film as Get Out, but it’s the closest comparison I can think of. Don’t we still recongnise the issues it dealt with in terms of feminism and the patriarchy controlling women ?

I agree that Get Out isn’t especially artful in its direction and there were more admireable films out in that regard in 2017. But I love what it does politically, how it does it and how it managed to reach a large audience.


Last edited by Lost Highway on Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:28 pm 
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mfunk9786 wrote:
Ribs wrote:
Again, I just deeply resent whatever the first film to be released in each year is that's an Oscar player due to always being the one insisting things need to come out in the Fall and so I somehow end up being the anti-Get Out guy. Happened last year with Hell or High Water too (though that film was obviously something to root against anyway).

And I thought the primary complaint about awards season for years was that those earlier-in-the-year releases were unfairly ignored in favor of late year films! It does indeed seem to have flipped in an interesting way.

Re: Get Out - the issues it explores are going to continue to change and evolve, but it will remain prescient for this time period, and when this (by any measure difficult) time period is being discussed, that film will likely be part of the discussion. And considering that race relations never seem to be progressing as far as we all like to think they are in any given era, unfortunately something like this will probably have real-time legs longer than we'd like it to, as well.


I mean, this year's weird because it was both Get Out and Dunkirk early out of the gate for different reasons (Get Out wasn't designed as an Oscar play, Dunkirk made its July release *part* of its Oscar play). Last year was weird because, other than Hell or High Water, all seven other nominees were released in the last 10 weeks of the year. I remember thinking how odd it was that it was late September and we still hadn't seen any of the serious Oscar players other than Sully at the time. And it's not as uncommon as its reputation makes you think - Crash and Hurt Locker were both Summer releases, meaning it's happened about 1 in 7 times over the past fifteen years which is about right for the one nominee a year that's from before the Fall period. But I just know from the way I follow the awards season each year means I'm always going to be the one who shakes my head that it won't happen.

(I'm still surprised Universal didn't try to do a Halloween-time wide rerelease for Get Out, but the usual "put it back in 300 theaters after nominations" will probably do pretty well all things considered)


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Brian C wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:
Merely because none of us have a crystal ball doesn't make it a worthless bit of speculation.

And stripped of its cultural cachet, what's left? Even the film's biggest fans don't seem to think that it's all that remarkable of a piece of filmmaking, as far as that goes. And not to put words in Big Ben's mouth, but this is how I took his "new hotness" label - even the film's biggest fans mostly seem reluctant to praise it too much outside of its right-now-this-instant relevance to wider cultural issues. So once the moment passes...?


I'll reiterate my term usage was crude but I think everyone knows what I mean at some level. A film winning major awards because it happens to simply be the most widely accepted at said time is certainly a thing and we all know that. To me personally at this stage an Oscar feels more like marketing potential than it does a true badge of honor. I mean I still remember the absolute mixture of confusion and laughter when I saw a copy of Norbit at the grocery store with a huge sticker advertising it's nomination for Best Makeup. No one ever took Norbit seriously but there it is.

Time will be a better judge than any ceremony. I think at some level whether we'll admit it or not we like the pomp and circumstance of it all. Mixed with the drama.


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