The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

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captveg
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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#76 Post by captveg » Thu May 07, 2015 2:50 pm

$50 to help fund it and get the Blu-ray seems like a fair deal to me. Here's hoping it works out.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#77 Post by albucat » Thu May 07, 2015 3:18 pm

Agreed. I'm hoping to see more sites pick this up as news soon. I seriously doubt they hit the $2 million mark, and given the way indiegogo's funding works failing to do so means losing a fair amount of cash.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#78 Post by hearthesilence » Thu May 07, 2015 3:24 pm

Can't afford it, but the $1000 level package looks nice - a box of custom cigars, plus posters, Blu-ray and download, coffee table book and monogrammed robe.

So far, it's mostly small gifts that are going, which means progress is slow. At this rate, it's going to hit $50k in a single day, which ain't bad considering it's mostly small gifts, but it also suggests that this is going to go down to the wire. Meanwhile, Zach Braff's shitty film got it's $2 million in a few days…you can't trust people.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#79 Post by pzadvance » Thu May 07, 2015 3:32 pm

albucat wrote:Agreed. I'm hoping to see more sites pick this up as news soon. I seriously doubt they hit the $2 million mark, and given the way indiegogo's funding works failing to do so means losing a fair amount of cash.
If I'm following you, that's actually not how IndieGoGo works--they're doing a "flexible funding" campaign which means they get whatever money they raise regardless of whether they meet their goal--but IGG will take a larger percentage of their funding if they don't reach $2mil.

EDIT: I was not following you, we were sayin the same thing.
Last edited by pzadvance on Thu May 07, 2015 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#80 Post by albucat » Thu May 07, 2015 3:38 pm

Here's how it works: https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/ ... es-Pricing. As you can see, if they don't hit that $2 million, they lose an additional 5% of what they've earned. This was definitely the smarter decision, given how hard it will be to hit that, but you can see why that would be a pretty unfortunate way to lose so much money.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#81 Post by criterion10 » Thu May 07, 2015 3:42 pm

It's amazing that they've already raised as much as they have, but I don't see them making the $2 million mark, sadly.

Someone like a Megan Ellison needs to come along and just fund the whole damn thing.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#82 Post by hearthesilence » Thu May 07, 2015 3:57 pm

Remember when Spielberg wouldn't help him find financing, and then personally bought the "Rosebud" sled for a cool million (in early '80s dollars)? Maybe someone like him can step in on the last day and just donate the remainder.

Anyone, glad to see things picking up a little bit. To my knowledge, usually these things spike at the front and tail end, which would mean two things: 1) the first few days really has to do well, not just be "on pace" and 2) it's really maintaining or building the momentum in between that's the challenge, and the ones that tend to the best manage to dig up high profile support or some key surprises along the way.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#83 Post by beamish13 » Fri May 08, 2015 11:39 am

hearthesilence wrote:Remember when Spielberg wouldn't help him find financing, and then personally bought the "Rosebud" sled for a cool million (in early '80s dollars)? Maybe someone like him can step in on the last day and just donate the remainder.
.
According to Spielberg, he tried to get THE CRADLE WILL ROCK up with his name on it as an executive producer.
He "only" paid about $65k for "Rosebud". Spielberg has pledged tens of millions to the in-progress Academy of Motion Pictures Arts & Sciences Museum, but somehow I don't think he'll pony up any money for this.

Interestingly, Clint Eastwood apparently watched the rough cut of THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND in the late 80's. He had no interest in helping to get it released, and used it to prep for playing John Huston in WHITE HUNTER, BLACK HEART.

I still wonder what we could've had with THE BIG BRASS RING (the original script of which is just terrific) had Welles been willing to cast Robert De Niro, who was interested in doing it after RAGING BULL.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#84 Post by hearthesilence » Fri May 08, 2015 12:00 pm

Ah should've double checked a source instead of going by memory. Joseph McBride's biography on Spielberg claims he didn't offer any help. Since it's McBride, maybe he's basing this on Welles' account?
…Orson Welles, near the end of his life in 1985, invited Spielberg and Amy Irving to lunch at the West Hollywood bistro Ma Maison. Welles had hoped Spielberg would finance his stalled project The Cradle Will Rock, in which Irving had agreed to play Welles's first wife. Just a few months earlier, Spielberg had spent $60,500 to buy a Rosebud sled from Citizen Kane as 'a symbolic medallion of quality in movies. When you look at Rosebud, you don't think of fast dollars, fast sequels, and remakes. This to me says that movies of my generation had better be good.' But rather than offering to help Welles with The Cradle Will Rock, Spielberg spent most of their luncheon asking questions about Citizen Kane.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#85 Post by Drucker » Fri May 08, 2015 12:07 pm

Where's the bit in the book about how George Lucas saw it, declared it wouldn't have an audience, and also didn't want to help? That's in What Ever Happened To Orson Welles?

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#86 Post by hearthesilence » Fri May 08, 2015 12:18 pm

Google Books has that book too, and here's the excerpt.

Didn't know this, but Roger Corman expressed interest in distributing it in the late '70s, but he made it clear he wouldn't if the ownership issues were not settled. "Otherwise, I'd be served with three lawsuits at noon on the day it opened."

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Re: Orson Welles

#87 Post by nolanoe » Fri May 08, 2015 7:16 pm

100.000$ down after two days!! \:D/

Also, this is still open:
$50.000USD
Orson's Private CK Scrapbook
Orson kept a running scrapbook containing newspaper clippings for each of his films. Many have gone to Auction, but we are offering his most coveted one. Citizen Kane, dating all the way back to the 1930's. This incredibly private journal marks moments throughout the films release. Obviously there is only one of these in the world. But we are offering it to the right person to make his final film come true. This perk is EXCLUSIVE.


0 of 1 ordered

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Re: Orson Welles

#88 Post by Jarpie » Fri May 08, 2015 8:51 pm

They should've put the campaign to Kickstarter, much more popular, people trusts it more and much larger userbase, I just hope that the project will get as much as possible.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#89 Post by Jarpie » Fri May 08, 2015 8:55 pm

Like I wrote in other topic, they should've gone with Kickstarter, people trusts it more and much better visibility.

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Re: Orson Welles

#90 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Sat May 09, 2015 4:06 am

nolanoe wrote:100.000$ down after two days!! \:D/

Also, this is still open:
$50.000USD
Orson's Private CK Scrapbook
Orson kept a running scrapbook containing newspaper clippings for each of his films. Many have gone to Auction, but we are offering his most coveted one. Citizen Kane, dating all the way back to the 1930's. This incredibly private journal marks moments throughout the films release. Obviously there is only one of these in the world. But we are offering it to the right person to make his final film come true. This perk is EXCLUSIVE.


0 of 1 ordered
Anyone want to go halves?

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Re: Orson Welles

#91 Post by kidc85 » Sat May 09, 2015 5:31 am

$2M? So, according to their percentage breakdown of 'how will the money be spent' that means $800k for scanning and processing, $200k for colour correction, $400k for editing and post-supervision and $200k for music composition. And that's not including the funds that they've raised already, so those costs might be under-estimates (or they could have ear-marked the other funds for the stuff that isn't included in the breakdown: advertising, blu-ray production, etc). I understand OSOTW is a strange case but I was surprised by the costs, am I just being naive?

It's just a pity Jesus Franco is dead, we could've bunged him a fiver and been done with it. :)

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Re: Orson Welles

#92 Post by kidc85 » Sat May 09, 2015 5:34 am

Jarpie wrote:They should've put the campaign to Kickstarter, much more popular, people trusts it more and much larger userbase, I just hope that the project will get as much as possible.
They were probably worried about not getting the full $2M - with Indiegogo they get all the money regardless of whether the goal is met or not.

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Re: Orson Welles

#93 Post by hearthesilence » Sat May 09, 2015 9:49 am

kidc85 wrote:$2M? So, according to their percentage breakdown of 'how will the money be spent' that means $800k for scanning and processing, $200k for colour correction, $400k for editing and post-supervision and $200k for music composition. And that's not including the funds that they've raised already, so those costs might be under-estimates (or they could have ear-marked the other funds for the stuff that isn't included in the breakdown: advertising, blu-ray production, etc). I understand OSOTW is a strange case but I was surprised by the costs, am I just being naive?
The costs actually make sense. There aren't many labs that process film now, even less that handle different formats. They shot a ton of film for this picture, and scanning it alone will be expensive as hell.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#94 Post by hearthesilence » Sat May 09, 2015 9:55 am

With a high profile project like this, any debate over the trust and visibility of Indiegogo vs. Kickstarter is completely a moot issue. You have established names attached and every film publication covered this campaign. Even mainstream publications like the New York Times, the Guardian and the Wall Street Journal reported on it, virtually endorsing it in the process. The main issue is keeping whatever they raise, regardless of whether you get your goal and Kickstarter doesn't let you do that.
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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#95 Post by movielocke » Sat May 09, 2015 12:35 pm

kidc85 wrote:$2M? So, according to their percentage breakdown of 'how will the money be spent' that means $800k for scanning and processing, $200k for colour correction, $400k for editing and post-supervision and $200k for music composition. And that's not including the funds that they've raised already, so those costs might be under-estimates (or they could have ear-marked the other funds for the stuff that isn't included in the breakdown: advertising, blu-ray production, etc). I understand OSOTW is a strange case but I was surprised by the costs, am I just being naive?

It's just a pity Jesus Franco is dead, we could've bunged him a fiver and been done with it. :)
film work is expensive, and even a wet gate scan will result in digital files needing significant cleanup which means time. Also union rates, hence the 600k for colour and post (which also includes equipment rentals, and office rent in addition to wages.)

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#96 Post by david hare » Sat May 09, 2015 3:43 pm

I may be a complete idiot, or I simply haven't read enough background, but...

What is the actual, final definitive legal ownership status of Wind?

Who are the people who have rightful claims on the material and what's is their relationship? If the organizers of this Indeigogo can't say, why not?

What is the breakdown of projected restoration and printing and 4k digitization costs based on actual existing condition of elements?
And what is Oja's role in all of this and how much of this finance is she or anyone else "entitled to"?


That's three for starters.

Of all the projects for Kickstarter or an Indeigogo exercise, this to my mind is the very worst scenario. It seems to me there is no clarity whatsoever behind the condition and physical possession of elements, no business case nor any statement of intent regarding distribution and HV/streaming rights, no clear mandate of who owns what. To say nothing of what if any interest contributors to the fund will enjoy, if any.

This project is the closest thing to a minefield disguised with a layer of Dr Feelgood I can imagine. And the costs quoted already by people here for basics who I'm sure know there stuff, like wet gate printing pre scan, scan and stabilization and then major post beggar belief. Robert Harris for one could probably give closer figures, but surely based on verified reports on conditions of the elements which don't appear to be made known and I doubt they would be so stratospheric, unless the elements themselves are in fact a complete shambles. I don't believe that, if great fucking slabs of this have been put up at youtube and vimeo.

Forgive my cynicism but of all the projects in the all the world this is one I wouldn't touch without a massive pre fundraising proposal and case. The whole thing smells bad to me. Perhaps someone can dismiss this concern with a simple answer?

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#97 Post by captveg » Sat May 09, 2015 4:16 pm

Simple answer: rights issues were worked out last year. Elements are being flown from France to LA. The majority of your questions are answered in the Indiegogo page.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#98 Post by Drucker » Sat May 09, 2015 4:52 pm

Yes, i believe Kodar was able to secure rights. However, while I do intend to contribute, I agree with your general skepticism/worry David.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#99 Post by albucat » Sat May 09, 2015 5:05 pm

david hare wrote:I may be a complete idiot, or I simply haven't read enough background, but...

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and say no, but definitely too lazy to read.
david hare wrote:What is the actual, final definitive legal ownership status of Wind?
If by this you mean the rights , all parties are participating and hopeful that this gets made, including Oja and Beatrice. They are solved. There is no issue, period. It has been this way for a while.

david hare wrote:Who are the people who have rightful claims on the material and what's is their relationship? If the organizers of this Indeigogo can't say, why not?

This is essentially the same question. Like a lot of people here, I've been following this movie's legal struggles for well more than a decade, and the impossible has been achieved. No one has claims who isn't involved. It's done.
david hare wrote:What is the breakdown of projected restoration and printing and 4k digitization costs based on actual existing condition of elements?
And what is Oja's role in all of this and how much of this finance is she or anyone else "entitled to"?

This is all on the page. It's right there. If you have in-depth questions, you can ask them, using the ask us more protocol they put right there on the site. Oja's role is, presumably, owner of the film, as is Beatrice's. They came to an agreement that, frankly, isn't our concern, and it would be a rather insane choice of theirs to tell the public what exactly this was. Why would they do that?
david hare wrote:That's three for starters.

Ok, now I'm being pedantic, but no it's not. I mean, that's about the level of close reading I'd expect at this point, but still...
david hare wrote: It seems to me there is no clarity whatsoever behind the condition and physical possession of elements, no business case nor any statement of intent regarding distribution and HV/streaming rights, no clear mandate of who owns what. To say nothing of what if any interest contributors to the fund will enjoy, if any.


They own the elements, they're just shipping them to America. READ. Why would they tell us about streaming rights, they own the film? This isn't just you and your random friends putting together a campaign, this is a situation where they own the rights and the film materials. Why would they have a mandate? That would also be insane. I don't even know what "if any interest contributors to the fund will enjoy" means? Maybe you're unclear on how indiegogo, kickstarter, etc. work. You do not own this. You give a donation. You are not an investor, you are giving money. Your interest here is getting the movie finally finished, and as a Welles obsessive, I'm more than happy to give money to this project.

david hare wrote:This project is the closest thing to a minefield disguised with a layer of Dr Feelgood I can imagine.
Is the minefield rights? Because they OWN THEM. It says so on the page.
david hare wrote:And the costs quoted already by people here for basics who I'm sure know there stuff, like wet gate printing pre scan, scan and stabilization and then major post beggar belief. Robert Harris for one could probably give closer figures, but surely based on verified reports on conditions of the elements which don't appear to be made known and I doubt they would be so stratospheric, unless the elements themselves are in fact a complete shambles. I don't believe that, if great fucking slabs of this have been put up at youtube and vimeo.
We're talking about not just a restoration, we're talking about finishing an avant-garde movie shot with multiple film stocks, no scoring, and only a short rough cut and notes to go on. All of the materials need to be indexed, hours and hours of takes need to be sorted through with barely any organization. My hope is that costs are less than they predict, but if you know anything about the production you're aware of just how much film needs to be scanned, viewed, reviewed, and in LA with union pay. This is a massive undertaking.
david hare wrote:Perhaps someone can dismiss this concern with a simple answer?
Read the campaign (please, please read!). Read their interviews. Ask them yourself. This isn't a weird pipe dream that's not happening, this is a concerted effort from pretty much every living individual who cares about the film now that the incredible hurdles of the past thirty years have all gone away--all except for the biggest one of all, money. Everyone from Jonathan Rosenbaum and Joseph McBride to Oja and Beatrice is working on this. Maybe that fact can help you make up your mind.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#100 Post by david hare » Sat May 09, 2015 7:54 pm

Thanks for the answer but I will say I am none the wiser about the legal and physical ownership of this material. I will take your sage advice of course and read further.

(EDIT: thanks to veg for pointing the finger in that direction.)

I am perfectly familiar with crowdsourcing and similar forms of capital raising but in this case I do not see clear and simple evidence of straightforward lines of ownership, control and intention. I am also more familiar with legalese and contracts than you might even begin to imagine. Most of the crowdfunding projects I've paid any attention and interest to have been extremely clear and straightforward - Shrader's The Pines via Lindsay Lohan is one such.

My main concern here is that I frankly don't believe as a hypothetical contributor - no matter how small - to this project that I am personally satisfied with the bona fides. Why is there only one costing statement, allowing for the variety of stocks and range of lab processing for a start. Who are the labs? who's doing the scanning and with what scanner? What post houses have been approached for quotes? A solid business case here for instance would not be quoting one single ballpark figure of two million USD.

I am simply fearful that not a few people who are enthusiastic and totally sincere about getting this thing rolling are, on the basis of far too slim evidence for my liking frankly, going to do their dough.

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