Saw this last night. Very, very funny. It goes a lot further than I expected, though (and I have been familiar with Borat's shtick for many years). The old couple sitting next to me in the theatre were visibly squirming in their seats.
I guess every city it plays in will have a slightly different reaction, but seeing it in the South was quite telling. You could feel the comfort level of the entire audience shift during the church scene.
Borat: Cultural Learnings of America (Larry Charles, 2006)
-
Roger_Thornhill
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:35 pm
I saw this a few hours ago, and, being a big fan of Da Ali G Show, I was very familiar with the Borat character and thus had some idea what to expect. I'm not one for hyperbole, but this is undoubtably one of the funniest movies I've ever seen. I think it did a fantastic job of blurring the line between documentary and narrative filmmaking to create a truly unusual comedy. Borat the character is the anti-hypocrite; he's a blatently racist, sexist, homophobic bigot who's oddly sympathetic perhaps, because, he's very open (and cheerful) with his thoughts and opinions. Borat exposes the hypocrisy within Western society and demonstrates that we may in fact not be as civilized or superior to Borat's "backward" culture as we think. And it's not just uneducated hicks that Borat exposes as racists or homophobes, but also supposedely well-educated people like the wealthy southerners he dines with or the obnoxious frat boys he parties with. Cohen has often been compared to Andy Kaufman and Peter Sellers, but neither of them infused their comedy with incisive political satire the way Cohen does in Borat. Cohen is his own unique beast. This is my favorite film I've seen in theatres this year, with the lone exception being Melville's L'Armée des Ombres. Unfortunately, the hype for Borat will inevitably lead to a backlash, but this is one film I think that lived up to it.
-
jon
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:03 pm
I loved that was more than a comedy, it was a social experiment. My theatre was packed, every single seat at a 2:00 showing in Nashville on a saturday, and there was basically constant laughter. One of the most purely enjoyable movies I've seen this year.
SpoilerShow
so, how much of the Pamela scene was planned. Obviously Pamela was in on it, but did the line of people know? Did the cops know(it would seem they would have, but i duno...). Where did they film the Kazakstan scenes?
-
colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
I'm not sure I really get this Borat character. What exactly is the aim of it - to show up racists and bigots? I haven't seen the film yet, but I did find this character one of the more difficult to figure out on the TV show. I enjoyed the Ali G character, with its commentary on white boys wanting to be black rappers and on 'yoof' TVs tendency to get completely unsuitable presenters for their guests and the presenters being completely unprepared for an interview: knowing who the interviewees are, what they do etc (one of my recent favourites was Ali G asking Gore Vidal about hairstyling prompting the response "Are you thinking of Vidal Sassoon? We are two different people!", and then because he's got no other questions continuing to follow the Gore Vidal/Vidal Sassoon-as-brothers line of questioning!). There was always the impression the joke was more on Ali G than the interviewees, though if they got really upset at him or walked off the interviewees usually revealed something of themselves in the process. The people who usually emerged with their dignity intact were those who didn't get too upset by the questions, or even better, understood it for a joke and played along (probably the only decent thing Posh and Becks ever did!)
I also enjoyed the gay German guy, Bruno, interviewing the fashion show designers and revealing their complete vacuity! (I keep thinking how much funnier Pret-a-Porter might have been if the character was around at the time and if it was him instead of the naive character Kim Basinger plays doing the interviews! It could have added a vital spark to that film!) After all (and of course shown in the emperor's new clothes final sequence of the Altman film) they've been getting away without criticism pretty lightly over the years!
I don't know about Borat however. We can say the same thing as with Ali G, that the joke is also as much on the character he is playing as on the people he talks to, but this is much more complex than the other character. When the 'shock' revelation came about that Ali G was played by a well off private school and Cambridge-educated Jewish guy there was some concern about it being quite a stereotypical view of working class, deluded youngsters (which of course it is). The controversy quickly blew over though and personally I thought the revelations of who 'da real Ali G' was added an extra dimension to the character - he was an even less likely candidate to be a black rapper from either the East or West coast!
Borat disturbs me a bit because this is a Jewish guy playing on stereotypes, even before we get onto whether he is successful at exposing other racists and bigots. There has been a lot of pleasureable shock at the 'running of the Jew' sequences, with suggestions that they are pushing the envelope of comedy with these scenes. From what I've read about them, they don't really seem edgy to me - not there to be offensive to Jews, but to let Jewish people laugh at comedy rituals (and in a small sense feel validated that their feelings about 'these people' are true?).
I would be very interested to see whether Sascha Baron Cohen ever bites the hand that feeds him and does some satirical comedy about the bigots and racists in his own culture perhaps - since of course anyone can be racist, it doesn't respect religious, cultural or race boundaries! (it also seems a bit ironic that the extremely gentle Jewish comedy Sixty Six is playing at the same time in Britain)
So I think the safety net I had with Ali G, that he was as much a figure of fun as the people he encountered, if not more so, has taken a darker (maybe intentional, maybe not) twist with Borat's loveable backward racist.
The other major problem I have with the Borat character is that he really seems to tackle the easy targets - so feminists might possibly get upset if you say the woman's brain is the size of a chickens? You do shock me!
It feels like he is preaching to the converted - we all know these people are going to react badly and we want to see them getting upset and then laugh along with (or more probably at) Borat at how much more sophisticated we are than these weird people. Another form of validation making us as the audience perhaps just as much a target of the satire? If we laugh are we placing ourselves on a 'higher' level than others? Or are we laughing uncomfortably? Or do we just like to be in the company of like minded people to feel validated in our point of view? Does that make us any more different to the group of people at the rodeo, who are likely there because they all have similar interests and thoughts on certain subjects? Does this make the film a comedy about one 'clique' laughing at another?
This leads into another problem I have with the Borat character. Since he is as much a figure of ridicule as the people he talks to, could there be a suggestion of leading people into their reactions? I think he blatantly does lead and goad people into apparently revealing themselves, but I think a lot of the themes of showing up racists and bigots gets lost by doing that.
I find programmes made by Louis Theroux or Nick Broomfield, for all their own leading and goading of subjects, to be much more powerful since the seriousness of the interviewer and the subject matter makes the times when someone does say something incredibly racist or makes a bizarre statement about being a conduit for an alien intelligence that much more jarring, because while it is obvious this is the response the interviewer is looking for, the interviewee hasn't been driven to such an extreme by comments made that they get upset. Their comments are more powerful and disturbing for being delivered often in a calm manner.
Of course Borat has to be a comedy, and I think this need for constant comedic moments has led to some soft targets and harassment where the point of what the makers of Borat were wanting to achieve is lost. So people at a rodeo get upset at Borat praising the 'achievements' of Bush and singing his national anthem? Sure, but I think that could just as easily have been done in front of any group of Americans (and with a flip to Blair in front of most groups of British people) - is it supposed to be saying that just 'rednecks' get upset at being laughed at?
The rodeo scene would also seem to demonstrate group dynamics. People will just go along with things because it is easier than trying to check someone. A lot of people might agree with being glad that Iraq is being bombed into the dust (and I guess by choosing such a soft target as the rodeo the makers of Borat wanted to maximise the potential of people in agreement!) - but tarring everyone in the stadium, or the group is perhaps just as reductive and racist. People often just want a quiet life without conflict and , shock!, sometimes don't tell people what they really think!
This is only reinforcing my idea that this is a film that lets us laugh at the other dumb, backward people in our world, our country, our neighbourhood, and by it being a piece of work where the character of Borat has to goad people (by showing them nude pictures of his wife, the comment to the feminists etc) he removes the opportunity of letting them hoist themselves on their own petard. Their reactions to him are nullified by it being in response to such a bizarre character interviewing them.
For example I've known many people who for some reason or another when chatting to me reveal certain attitudes: about immigrants, black people, asians, women etc etc. Not only would this suggest that a lot of these types of thoughts are often covered over by a veneer of acceptable behaviour and 'cosmopolitanism', but also that they are much more shocking when someone makes the decision to reveal their thoughts to you without prompting. The prompting aspect of Borat unfortunately negates for me any social comment that might be underlying the film (however I do think that this goading is probably the only way to make a film like this - you can't wait around for each person to trust you enough to reveal their innermost thoughts to your camera, you have to upset them to the point that the 'truth' emerges)
I think this brings me to my final thought on Borat, which is that agreeing with someone in a strange way doesn't mean you agree with them! I'm sure there are people who can describe group and interpersonal dynamics in a much better way than I can, but something goes on in conversations where people get caught up in a cycle of wanting to be respectful, or part of the group, or just get the information across in a conversation and end it. It might seem strange but people often have to talk to other people to achieve a purpose, when they might be people who would hold views that they would ordinarily find repugnant!
In that sense it is easier to agree with certain things people say just to keep a conversation moving to its end. I've been in situations with people where I've had to nod or make 'mmm-hmmm' noises while they go on about 'how black people moved in next door' etc until I can ask them the question I really needed to know the answer to, and I think a lot of social interactions occur on this 'surface' level, where people just pretend to agree without going any deeper (for better or worse - perhaps this surface agreement is validating these people even more in their beliefs, but on the other hand I would often say anything just to get the conversation over quicker and get the hell away from them!)
I think Borat is working only on this surface level and never gets beneath to think about why people think certain things, or whether outside of a large group people could be decent, or whether they could have other qualities - it perhaps ends up imposing (and asking us as the audience to impose) as rigid and perjorative view on the people he encounters in the film as the people in the film hold on their own subjects of Bush or feminism etc.
Having said all this I'm probably going to negate my whole argument by saying I did find the "This is my sister. She is number four prostitute in all Kazakhstan!" line funny! Also it seems that at least this film isn't going to be as much of a failure as Ali G In Da House, which made the mistake of trying to make a feature film that had no interviews with real subjects in (though it reinforced my opinion that the intention behind all of Ali G is that he should be seen as the main the figure of fun, not his subjects (they just add to the fun by their reactions!) - which was what disturbs me about Borat!).
I just hope no one gets the idea to make a film of the truly appalingly unfunny Bo Selecta show!
I also enjoyed the gay German guy, Bruno, interviewing the fashion show designers and revealing their complete vacuity! (I keep thinking how much funnier Pret-a-Porter might have been if the character was around at the time and if it was him instead of the naive character Kim Basinger plays doing the interviews! It could have added a vital spark to that film!) After all (and of course shown in the emperor's new clothes final sequence of the Altman film) they've been getting away without criticism pretty lightly over the years!
I don't know about Borat however. We can say the same thing as with Ali G, that the joke is also as much on the character he is playing as on the people he talks to, but this is much more complex than the other character. When the 'shock' revelation came about that Ali G was played by a well off private school and Cambridge-educated Jewish guy there was some concern about it being quite a stereotypical view of working class, deluded youngsters (which of course it is). The controversy quickly blew over though and personally I thought the revelations of who 'da real Ali G' was added an extra dimension to the character - he was an even less likely candidate to be a black rapper from either the East or West coast!
Borat disturbs me a bit because this is a Jewish guy playing on stereotypes, even before we get onto whether he is successful at exposing other racists and bigots. There has been a lot of pleasureable shock at the 'running of the Jew' sequences, with suggestions that they are pushing the envelope of comedy with these scenes. From what I've read about them, they don't really seem edgy to me - not there to be offensive to Jews, but to let Jewish people laugh at comedy rituals (and in a small sense feel validated that their feelings about 'these people' are true?).
I would be very interested to see whether Sascha Baron Cohen ever bites the hand that feeds him and does some satirical comedy about the bigots and racists in his own culture perhaps - since of course anyone can be racist, it doesn't respect religious, cultural or race boundaries! (it also seems a bit ironic that the extremely gentle Jewish comedy Sixty Six is playing at the same time in Britain)
So I think the safety net I had with Ali G, that he was as much a figure of fun as the people he encountered, if not more so, has taken a darker (maybe intentional, maybe not) twist with Borat's loveable backward racist.
The other major problem I have with the Borat character is that he really seems to tackle the easy targets - so feminists might possibly get upset if you say the woman's brain is the size of a chickens? You do shock me!
It feels like he is preaching to the converted - we all know these people are going to react badly and we want to see them getting upset and then laugh along with (or more probably at) Borat at how much more sophisticated we are than these weird people. Another form of validation making us as the audience perhaps just as much a target of the satire? If we laugh are we placing ourselves on a 'higher' level than others? Or are we laughing uncomfortably? Or do we just like to be in the company of like minded people to feel validated in our point of view? Does that make us any more different to the group of people at the rodeo, who are likely there because they all have similar interests and thoughts on certain subjects? Does this make the film a comedy about one 'clique' laughing at another?
This leads into another problem I have with the Borat character. Since he is as much a figure of ridicule as the people he talks to, could there be a suggestion of leading people into their reactions? I think he blatantly does lead and goad people into apparently revealing themselves, but I think a lot of the themes of showing up racists and bigots gets lost by doing that.
I find programmes made by Louis Theroux or Nick Broomfield, for all their own leading and goading of subjects, to be much more powerful since the seriousness of the interviewer and the subject matter makes the times when someone does say something incredibly racist or makes a bizarre statement about being a conduit for an alien intelligence that much more jarring, because while it is obvious this is the response the interviewer is looking for, the interviewee hasn't been driven to such an extreme by comments made that they get upset. Their comments are more powerful and disturbing for being delivered often in a calm manner.
Of course Borat has to be a comedy, and I think this need for constant comedic moments has led to some soft targets and harassment where the point of what the makers of Borat were wanting to achieve is lost. So people at a rodeo get upset at Borat praising the 'achievements' of Bush and singing his national anthem? Sure, but I think that could just as easily have been done in front of any group of Americans (and with a flip to Blair in front of most groups of British people) - is it supposed to be saying that just 'rednecks' get upset at being laughed at?
The rodeo scene would also seem to demonstrate group dynamics. People will just go along with things because it is easier than trying to check someone. A lot of people might agree with being glad that Iraq is being bombed into the dust (and I guess by choosing such a soft target as the rodeo the makers of Borat wanted to maximise the potential of people in agreement!) - but tarring everyone in the stadium, or the group is perhaps just as reductive and racist. People often just want a quiet life without conflict and , shock!, sometimes don't tell people what they really think!
This is only reinforcing my idea that this is a film that lets us laugh at the other dumb, backward people in our world, our country, our neighbourhood, and by it being a piece of work where the character of Borat has to goad people (by showing them nude pictures of his wife, the comment to the feminists etc) he removes the opportunity of letting them hoist themselves on their own petard. Their reactions to him are nullified by it being in response to such a bizarre character interviewing them.
For example I've known many people who for some reason or another when chatting to me reveal certain attitudes: about immigrants, black people, asians, women etc etc. Not only would this suggest that a lot of these types of thoughts are often covered over by a veneer of acceptable behaviour and 'cosmopolitanism', but also that they are much more shocking when someone makes the decision to reveal their thoughts to you without prompting. The prompting aspect of Borat unfortunately negates for me any social comment that might be underlying the film (however I do think that this goading is probably the only way to make a film like this - you can't wait around for each person to trust you enough to reveal their innermost thoughts to your camera, you have to upset them to the point that the 'truth' emerges)
I think this brings me to my final thought on Borat, which is that agreeing with someone in a strange way doesn't mean you agree with them! I'm sure there are people who can describe group and interpersonal dynamics in a much better way than I can, but something goes on in conversations where people get caught up in a cycle of wanting to be respectful, or part of the group, or just get the information across in a conversation and end it. It might seem strange but people often have to talk to other people to achieve a purpose, when they might be people who would hold views that they would ordinarily find repugnant!
In that sense it is easier to agree with certain things people say just to keep a conversation moving to its end. I've been in situations with people where I've had to nod or make 'mmm-hmmm' noises while they go on about 'how black people moved in next door' etc until I can ask them the question I really needed to know the answer to, and I think a lot of social interactions occur on this 'surface' level, where people just pretend to agree without going any deeper (for better or worse - perhaps this surface agreement is validating these people even more in their beliefs, but on the other hand I would often say anything just to get the conversation over quicker and get the hell away from them!)
I think Borat is working only on this surface level and never gets beneath to think about why people think certain things, or whether outside of a large group people could be decent, or whether they could have other qualities - it perhaps ends up imposing (and asking us as the audience to impose) as rigid and perjorative view on the people he encounters in the film as the people in the film hold on their own subjects of Bush or feminism etc.
Having said all this I'm probably going to negate my whole argument by saying I did find the "This is my sister. She is number four prostitute in all Kazakhstan!" line funny! Also it seems that at least this film isn't going to be as much of a failure as Ali G In Da House, which made the mistake of trying to make a feature film that had no interviews with real subjects in (though it reinforced my opinion that the intention behind all of Ali G is that he should be seen as the main the figure of fun, not his subjects (they just add to the fun by their reactions!) - which was what disturbs me about Borat!).
I just hope no one gets the idea to make a film of the truly appalingly unfunny Bo Selecta show!
Last edited by colinr0380 on Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
-
Gropius
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:47 pm
-
denti alligator
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:36 pm
- Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"
As my wife said, would we be laughing if a white man dressed up as a black man and acted out all kinds of stereotypes of African Americans? This only works because it's the Muslim who gets the brunt of it, or...?
On the other hand, Borat is pretty clearly Christian, no?
I think it's hilarious, by the way.
On the other hand, Borat is pretty clearly Christian, no?
I think it's hilarious, by the way.
-
Schkura
- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:48 pm
- Location: Mississippi
I still think Yilmaz was "pulling a Borat".
The foibles of the more backward Muslims of the world are just as funny to me as prejudices of any other backwards folk (rednecks, radical feminists, man who have sex with a-noos of horse). I guess I really never thought of Borat as a Muslim because of my prejudice in thinking that most Muslims would not brag about members of the family being prostitutes. Shows what I know.
The foibles of the more backward Muslims of the world are just as funny to me as prejudices of any other backwards folk (rednecks, radical feminists, man who have sex with a-noos of horse). I guess I really never thought of Borat as a Muslim because of my prejudice in thinking that most Muslims would not brag about members of the family being prostitutes. Shows what I know.
-
Roger_Thornhill
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:35 pm
I don't think Borat is a Muslim, I think he's an ethnic Russian which makes up I believe about a quarter of Kazahkstan's population. Quite a few ethnic Russians left that country after the collapse of the Soviet Union, but during the Cold War Soviet authorities encouraged Russians to move there. Russia has been a notoriously anti-Semitic country for generations, hence why most of the Jewish immigrants entering Israel these days are Russian Jews. A lot of what Borat says is Russian in the show, although someone said that he was speaking Hebrew with his companion in the movie. I thought it was Russian, shows what little I know.Borat disturbs me a bit because this is a Jewish guy playing on Muslim stereotypes, even before we get onto whether he is successful at exposing other racists and bigots.
-
colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
-
Pinakotheca
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:49 pm
-
colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
19 paragraphs to be exact! I've got to be truthful - all the ads and press about the film might be completely wrong (I'm sure it's happened like that before!) 
but nothing I've seen yet has convinced me otherwise about the films content! And I've seen one or two episodes of the TV show.
Then again I find a paragraph of discussion on the film too much, but thought since I was here with nothing better to do....(!)
but nothing I've seen yet has convinced me otherwise about the films content! And I've seen one or two episodes of the TV show.Then again I find a paragraph of discussion on the film too much, but thought since I was here with nothing better to do....(!)
-
JabbaTheSlut
- Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
- Location: Down there
-
Cold Bishop
- Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 9:45 pm
- Location: Portland, OR
$26.4M from only 832 screens.... VERY NICE!
Not only is it great to see this outsell Hollywood pap like SC3 and Flushed Away with only a quarter of the screens. It also means that there's now a good chance my local Cinema will pick it up, allowing me to see it on the big screen before all the jokes are ruined to me.
Not only is it great to see this outsell Hollywood pap like SC3 and Flushed Away with only a quarter of the screens. It also means that there's now a good chance my local Cinema will pick it up, allowing me to see it on the big screen before all the jokes are ruined to me.
-
Steven H
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:30 pm
- Location: NC
This was funny as hell. Completely facetious humor mixed with a documentary edge works very well.
The film seems to balance people who are true assholes, those who aren't targets and reflect negatively on Borat, and people who add humor to a funny situation more than make themselves objects of satire. You can endlessly worry back and forth about whether satire is even handed or politically fair, and I've done my share of this, but in this case I just gave the guy the benefit of the doubt and laughed my head off.colin0380 wrote:This is only reinforcing my idea that this is a film that lets us laugh at the other dumb, backward people in our world, our country, our neighbourhood, and by it being a piece of work where the character of Borat has to goad people (by showing them nude pictures of his wife, the comment to the feminists etc) he removes the opportunity of letting them hoist themselves on their own petard. Their reactions to him are nullified by it being in response to such a bizarre character interviewing them.
-
Pinakotheca
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:49 pm
Sorry I didn't mean to take a jab at you.colinr0380 wrote:19 paragraphs to be exact!
The wife dragged me to see this today. It's funny, really funny. Sure there is some outrageous comments (like the chocolate people jokes and the whole jews are behind 9/11), nothing compared to wrestling scene. I haven't seen any of the Saw/Hostel torture movies, but none of that could possibly compare to Borats wrestling scene. Seriously.
-
Barmy
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 3:59 pm
I fucking hate Ali G but liked Borat a bunch. However, the scenes that appeared to be scripted (e.g. the NY subway scene and the Jewish bed and breakfast) tended to fall flat. Definitely a film to see ASAP with a packed, rabid audience (esp. if they show the Apocalypto trailer, so y'all can boo it).
-
John Cope
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:40 pm
- Location: where the simulacrum is true
-
The Invunche
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:43 am
- Location: Denmark
-
Napoleon
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:55 am
The director deliberately made these scenes fall flat.Barmy wrote:I fucking hate Ali G but liked Borat a bunch. However, the scenes that appeared to be scripted (e.g. the NY subway scene and the Jewish bed and breakfast) tended to fall flat. Definitely a film to see ASAP with a packed, rabid audience (esp. if they show the Apocalypto trailer, so y'all can boo it).
-
Barmy
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 3:59 pm
Hey Kasman agrees with me!
Rather, it is that scenes that would be funny if it were more clear that the people being mocked were indeed unaware of Cohen's shtick, just like other scenes would be funnier if their quasi-dramatization was instead committed entirely to false staging and therefore had more control over the comedic dialog and mise-en-scène.