898 Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
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Finch
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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#151 Post by Finch » Wed May 03, 2017 2:19 pm

Frankly, I don't see him doing a so-called Director's Cut either. He's on the record as saying that "nothing should be added and nothing should be subtracted". I don't remember if it was specifically in relation to this film; I have a hunch he feels that way about all his films. If he did decide to offer an alternative edit, Criterion should include the theatrical release as well for posterity.

Re interviews: would be nice if they got Mary Sweeney to talk about the film as well, and Episode 14 which she edited. Also, Badalamenti: his score for FWWM is his finest work IMO. They got Deming to talk about Mulholland Drive, so why not Ron Garcia..

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#152 Post by Finch » Wed May 03, 2017 2:21 pm

teddyleevin wrote:My only addition would be Laura's tense escape from her window, nearly being discovered on her way to James' motorcycle.
As nice as that scene was, I thought it was a bit redundant because of the shot of Leland by the window that made it into the theatrical cut.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#153 Post by teddyleevin » Thu May 04, 2017 1:09 am

Good point. It's one or the other. The deleted one terrified me supremely the first time I saw that in a way I didn't expect. So much of me still wants Laura to make it out of this film alive....

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#154 Post by soundchaser » Thu May 04, 2017 1:29 am

teddyleevin wrote:So much of me still wants Laura to make it out of this film alive....
I think that's where a lot of its power comes from. It's a bit like Romeo & Juliet (bear with me...) in that our knowing Laura will die propels the narrative forward.

That's what makes that last scene so perfect on the first go-round. We've spent the whole film knowing Laura's dying, and Lynch gives us transcendence. It's totally unexpected, and all the more beautiful for it.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#155 Post by LightBulbFilm » Thu May 04, 2017 7:03 am

Am I the only person who's suspected some type of Lynch boxset for quite some time.

I just remember my Amazon pre-order for The BBS Story boxset (at the time titled "The New Hollywood Boxset") which was to be released via Sony Pictures, which sat there unreleased and ultimately cancelled, until Criterion came along and miraculously released the exact same set.

While it's by no means the same thing, I think to the Lime Green Box Set which was released years ago which seemed to house many if not all of his films together; surprisingly a fairly wide release at its time.

Knowing of that boxset, and the seeming open-mindedness of the various distributors towards Lynch (or whatever strings may have been pulled to get those films together for an R1 release,) as well as Lynch's known interest in his own film's home media (whether they be his own releases like Eraserhead, shorts, Dumbland, etc.,) the MGM releases where there are literal bonus features where he discusses his interest in DVD releases, the legendary inserts in many of the DVD editions of his films, etc., Criterion's interest in him, as well as the rights seemingly going to Janus for titles formerly with large distributors, a set like this this seems highly plausible.

There's Elephant Man which has had no release at all for years now, and I'd suspected it long ago when they started pumping out Paramount titles like Harold & Maude and Days of Heaven.

Anyway, I'm beating a dead horse here. I don't know if it will come now, or later a la sets like Bergman, Hitchcock, or Del Toro, but one will surely come.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#156 Post by kcota17 » Thu May 04, 2017 11:08 am

From a business perspective, if Lynch was guaranteed to be one of your highest sellers and you were in the business of something that's potentially slowly dying, would you:

A.) Release a boxset early on with a huge MSRP that only a percentage of people will actually buy (even though most would just wait for B&N sales).

B.) Release them individually and space out each release so that they're more accessible, people would be more willing to buy on its release date, and you would be guaranteed a high selling title at different points in time (I.e. Say Criterion's sales just started tanking from here, at least they can always count on releasing s Lynch title for support).

If it were to happen, it would be AFTER all have gotten individual releases. But like I said, look at Chaplin, Lloyd and Wes Anderson as examples as to why there won't be a boxset first.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#157 Post by HitchcockLang » Thu May 04, 2017 11:24 am

kcota17 wrote:From a business perspective, if Lynch was guaranteed to be one of your highest sellers and you were in the business of something that's potentially slowly dying, would you:

A.) Release a boxset early on with a huge MSRP that only a percentage of people will actually buy (even though most would just wait for B&N sales).

B.) Release them individually and space out each release so that they're more accessible, people would be more willing to buy on its release date, and you would be guaranteed a high selling title at different points in time (I.e. Say Criterion's sales just started tanking from here, at least they can always count on releasing s Lynch title for support).

If it were to happen, it would be AFTER all have gotten individual releases. But like I said, look at Chaplin, Lloyd and Wes Anderson as examples as to why there won't be a boxset first.
I don't know, there's something to be said for milking the potential group of people who will pony up for a box first and then gradually breaking the box up. It's been working for BBS and Jacques Demy (granted, not the same selling power as Lynch). For what it's worth, I suspect individual releases, not a box, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there was some kind of box (though it seems like it coming before and with Eraserhead and Mulholland Dr. would have made more sense.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#158 Post by tenia » Thu May 04, 2017 11:43 am

A boxset would surprise me. Technically, except for the AK100 (which is now quite an old DVD-centric example), I don't think there is any example of Criterion releasing a boxset containing both previously individually-released titles and boxset-exclusive ones.

At best, there is the Guillermo Del Toro set, but only the packaging is an exclusivity, all the on-disc content was available in the individual release and the latest addition got its individual simultaneous release. The Whit Stillman and the Gregory / Shawn sets don't have any exclusivity at all.

If they didn't do any exclusivity with Del Toro (which seems quite popular right now), I don't picture them doing so for Lynch.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#159 Post by jindianajonz » Thu May 04, 2017 11:53 am

tenia wrote:A boxset would surprise me. Technically, except for the AK100 (which is now quite an old DVD-centric example), I don't think there is any example of Criterion releasing a boxset containing both previously individually-released titles and boxset-exclusive ones.
The Lean/Coward set, the Jacques Tati set, and the Brakhage set (kind of, the Blu-ray of the second volume is exclusive to the box) all come to mind.

EDIT: Oh, and the Antoine Doinel box and Agnes Varda, too. And Beales of Grey Garden Blu-ray is exclusive to the Grey Garden box.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#160 Post by kcota17 » Thu May 04, 2017 2:15 pm

The Lean/Coward set, the BBS set and the Demy set all have titles that wouldn't sell well on their own. And why would Criterion release Eraserhead / Mulholland Dr. first before a boxset?!

If Criterion ends up releasing a Lynch boxset before releasing the titles individually, I'll post a video on here of me eating my socks. But I'm 99% sure they will release them all individually.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#161 Post by tenia » Thu May 04, 2017 4:16 pm

jindianajonz wrote:
tenia wrote:A boxset would surprise me. Technically, except for the AK100 (which is now quite an old DVD-centric example), I don't think there is any example of Criterion releasing a boxset containing both previously individually-released titles and boxset-exclusive ones.
The Lean/Coward set, the Jacques Tati set, and the Brakhage set (kind of, the Blu-ray of the second volume is exclusive to the box) all come to mind.

EDIT: Oh, and the Antoine Doinel box and Agnes Varda, too. And Beales of Grey Garden Blu-ray is exclusive to the Grey Garden box.
There was no individual BD release prior the Lean Coward set and the Tati set was released with technically no prior related individual release (the older releases were different and OOP, so the set should be soon as a "reboot").

All the other examples are again DVD-era.

And Beales of Grey Gardens was directly included in Grey Gardens BD release. Same goes for the Brakhage set where the vol.1 upgrade was basically released with the BD release of the vol.2.

So, if anything, actually, it seems that what was done during the DVD period isnt done anymore this way for BD releases.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#162 Post by ianungstad » Wed May 10, 2017 12:37 am

MK2 handles the rights to this along with Eraserhead and all his short films. They also handle the rights to Lost Highway.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#163 Post by motefuzz » Wed May 10, 2017 4:21 am

Dead or Deader wrote:The kids are too busy uploading Twin Peaks episodes onto their tablet to even cared about purchasing physical media!

While this is a joke, it's kind of an important point. Lynch has said in multiple interviews FWWM is important to the upcoming season. If you're one of the many who first saw the show on Netflix or wherever the hell its streaming now, where do you go for FWWM? Buying a box set isn't really a fun option for most people. Locking this in as a Criterion is a pretty solid move. Both business wise and for the legitimacy of the film, which will have more eyes on it soon than it has in decades.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#164 Post by John Shade » Wed May 10, 2017 10:02 am

Lynch and high school kids a recurring theme recently on this thread.

Seems like there isn't much excitement about this release, so I'll throw a few questions out there. Anyone on here a fan of this film more than the series? Is it possible to watch the film and enjoy it without knowing anything about the series? Does it work as a standalone? (I'm slightly reluctant to admit the following) I love some of Lynch's feature length films but only ever made it through a few episodes of the show years back...

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#165 Post by The Narrator Returns » Wed May 10, 2017 10:04 am

I've watched not even two episodes of Twin Peaks, and I loved Fire Walk With Me. I dunno about other people, though.
Last edited by The Narrator Returns on Wed May 10, 2017 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#166 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed May 10, 2017 10:04 am

I prefer the film's tone to the series' (or at least find it more successful at its aims) but they're inextricable from one another and the series should definitely be watched in its entirety (yes, including the slog that is mid-to-late Season 2) before tackling the film.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#167 Post by knives » Wed May 10, 2017 10:26 am

I actually kind of like that slog. At least more than the movie which I kind of just shrug at.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#168 Post by Lars Von Truffaut » Wed May 10, 2017 11:36 am

I have only seen the theatrical cut, but for me the movie acts almost as the Star Wars prequels do. Lynch was reluctant to leave that world, but in doing so recreates a film's worth of exposition that doesn't really seem necessary. You have characters like Cooper and Albert who's storylines almost seem shoe-horned in. Feels like fan service at times. That said, I like Fire Walk with Me a good deal. The "new" characters that are introduced -- Agents Desmond, Stanley, and Jeffries, as well as Carl -- inhabit Lynch's world wonderfully and would have been among my favorite if present in the show. Laura's Black Lodge dream sequence and the scene at Bang Bang Bar are some of Lynch's best, and don't think he would have gotten away with on the CBS show. And the music is tremendous.

Twin Peaks is one of my favorite shows and didn't mind the slog in the middle of the second season, particularly when aware of the constraints at hand. In the end, I don't think it's hard for a viewer to appreciate both the series and the film. But it wouldn't shock me if whichever you saw first makes it harder to appreciate the second on the same level.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#169 Post by colinr0380 » Wed May 10, 2017 1:09 pm

I think they both work separately too (either way you are going to have the 'mystery' spoiled!), so go with whichever takes your interest. But having said that I err towards watching the series first and then Fire Walk With Me afterwards. It plays more like Mulholland Drive that way, with the rather placid surface level small town suburbia showing more quirks and cracks, initially charming and goofy only to become more delusional and horrific, and then we see the world from another, darker perspective. Watching the prequel afterwards resurrecting Laura Palmer only to die again also feels fitting, as it seems like yet another cycle of events similar to what was previously seen in the subplot of doppleganger figure Maddy Ferguson in the series itself. To have Fire Walk With Me reduced to 'just' a prequel leading into the events of the series as a whole underestimates its worth, and placing it at the end feels like it re-emphasises Laura Palmer above all that came before and will come afterwards.

It feels that both the series and the film are almost the fulcrum of Lynch's work, with the Twin Peaks series capturing that Blue Velvet or Wild At Heart sense (even Dune!) of following characters somewhat on the outside of the darker events (almost delusionally so) until they get caught up in a mystery or a heist. Or their destiny. Fire Walk With Me looks forward to Lost Highway, Mulholland Drive and Inland Empire with its central figure tormented by a truth that they cannot, and don't really want to have to, face up to. They're less characters with a destiny than pre-destined characters, if that makes sense as a distinction! Despite her tragic end, the acceptance of that horrible fate (that kicks off the wider community into life with her murder), could arguably make Laura Palmer one of the more successful figures of Lynch's 'late period'!

I'm quite excited to see whether that 'late period' sense of nebulous, shared community guilt is going to backwash over all of the characters in this upcoming third series. After all Twin Peaks has still been the only place so far where we have seen what happens to the characters left behind after the key central figure guiding the mystery has disappeared (in all the later films the surrounding characters have disappeared when the main character does. Although that long scene with the homeless Japanese lady telling a story after Laura Dern's character has been stabbed and is slowly dying next to them comes close to that idea of the supporting characters reaching a moment of epiphany as their world ends around them)

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#170 Post by Dylan » Wed May 10, 2017 1:50 pm

I love Fire Walk With Me and see it as a fascinating Epilogue to the series (though quite soon I'll be calling it an Interlude), but I personally can't imagine it working as a stand alone film. Spending the 20 or so hours in the world of Twin Peaks and being familiar with these characters beforehand seems very essential. For what it's worth, I have also known several people (all fans of other Lynch films) who watched Fire Walk With Me without having seen a single episode of the show, and every one of them came away from it not only cold, but also so indifferent that it killed their interest in watching the show. So I would personally watch the series first, then Fire Walk With Me and "The Missing Pieces" deleted scenes.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#171 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed May 10, 2017 2:02 pm

I mean, the most central mystery of the show is totally upended by the film, I'm not sure why you'd want to approach it that way in the first place.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#172 Post by oh yeah » Wed May 10, 2017 2:33 pm

I've heard of just as many people who've chanced upon the film without seeing the series beforehand, and loved it -- often because of and not in spite of its weirdness, and the added incomprehensibility caused by not knowing the show.

But yes, it's best to have seen the show. Well, best and worst -- in that expectations carried over from Episode 29 of the series play the biggest role usually in disappointing viewers of the movie. By contrast, people who've never seen the series have no such problem.

I think FWWM is one of the great humanist works of the cinema (a real corrective after the mixed-bag, abrasive posturing of WAH). Lynch will probably never top it, though that's not to say Blue Velvet, Lost Highway and a couple others (including his Peaks episodes and the oft-overlooked, quietly moving Straight Story) aren't right up there with it on my list. However, as much as I love Mulholland Drive, it's still something of a flawed masterpiece compared to the aforementioned works. And I still can't gather enough interest in Inland Empire, which feels very half-baked (though I still like parts of it and have seen it three times...) To me, Lynch's creative peak seems to have been the 90s, after which his projects have either been minuscule and inconsequential, or just structurally messier/more flawed in a way his best films aren't (even though MD really is a powerful, powerful flick).

Nevertheless, I have almost complete faith that Lynch will deliver the goods with these upcoming episodes.

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#173 Post by colinr0380 » Wed May 10, 2017 7:00 pm


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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#174 Post by Malickite » Sun May 14, 2017 12:22 am

Would it be wise for Criterion to keep vacant the spine number preceding FWWM for if/when they could get the rights to the Twin Peaks show, season 3 included?

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Re: Forthcoming: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me

#175 Post by Omensetter » Sun May 14, 2017 3:23 pm

A spine number is a spine number is a spine number, unless you're Wes Anderson or The Devil's Backbone.

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