Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Rian Johnson, 2017)

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jindianajonz
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#151 Post by jindianajonz » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:29 pm

swo17 wrote:Poe's dressing down of Hux in the opening scene felt more like Spaceballs (or I don't know, The Office) than Star Wars humor.
I think the difference was the gags that seemed to exist solely for the sake of gags. The Poe/Hux scene at the opening was a good example- what was Poe really trying to accomplish with this? Maybe I'm missing something, but there wasn't any real reason for the delay- he just kind of nattered on for a bit before launching his assault. Johnson was trying to allude to Han on the radio during the prison escape in A New Hope, but the key difference is that the humor also served a functional purpose- Han was trying to calm the guards fears that something was amiss, he just did a poor job of it.

An even bigger problem is that the humor often pulls you out of what should be an otherwise tense situation. Once Hux has been established as a punchline, the viewer can't take him seriously anymore. And because he's the leader of the First Order, the sense of threat they posed is diminished because really, how competent can a group be that put him in charge? Likewise, all sense of urgency was removed from the slow spaceship chase as soon as you realized Finn had time to go gallivanting around the galaxy with his new Mary Sue. There was a lot to like in this movie, but I feel like too often, especially in the first half, that Johnson was actively working against the tone he was trying to achieve.

nitin
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#152 Post by nitin » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:39 pm

The delay was for a reason, I cant remember specifics, but the delay was used in order to charge something up (there were shots during the conversation of a screen showing charging bars increasing).

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#153 Post by All the Best People » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:14 pm

I'm a big JJ Abrams fan/defender, but if the plot twist discussed in the page-flip to this page happens, I will personally drive to the Bad Robot offices and set them on fire.

On the humor point, I laughed at the Poe/Hux routine at the beginning -- but felt bad about it, as the terminology in the routine felt very foreign to the Star Wars universe.
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Like, do they have phone calls, where terms like "I'll hold" have any meaning?
It's that sort of thing that can take you out of the fiction a bit. I had a similar reaction when a character said
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"Godspeed."

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movielocke
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#154 Post by movielocke » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:28 am

jindianajonz wrote:
swo17 wrote:Poe's dressing down of Hux in the opening scene felt more like Spaceballs (or I don't know, The Office) than Star Wars humor.
I think the difference was the gags that seemed to exist solely for the sake of gags. The Poe/Hux scene at the opening was a good example- what was Poe really trying to accomplish with this? Maybe I'm missing something, but there wasn't any real reason for the delay- he just kind of nattered on for a bit before launching his assault. Johnson was trying to allude to Han on the radio during the prison escape in A New Hope, but the key difference is that the humor also served a functional purpose- Han was trying to calm the guards fears that something was amiss, he just did a poor job of it.

An even bigger problem is that the humor often pulls you out of what should be an otherwise tense situation. Once Hux has been established as a punchline, the viewer can't take him seriously anymore. And because he's the leader of the First Order, the sense of threat they posed is diminished because really, how competent can a group be that put him in charge? Likewise, all sense of urgency was removed from the slow spaceship chase as soon as you realized Finn had time to go gallivanting around the galaxy with his new Mary Sue. There was a lot to like in this movie, but I feel like too often, especially in the first half, that Johnson was actively working against the tone he was trying to achieve.
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It’s creating an internal parallel to the various dilatory and distraction tactics the rebels use throughout the film. And it’s showing how unsuccessful poes methods are compared to Leia and holdo’s distract/deception plan, or compared to Luke using distraction and delay to completely neutralizing the only force user the first order has by playing to kylos vanity and self centered ness.

The film is three or four successive rear guard actions by badly outnumbered forces struggling for survival which is a deliberate structure employed to strong thematic effect but is also why the film is kind of a narrative downer for audiences, it’s about struggling to survive rather than fighting for victory, so the film’s climax is successful escape, not a victory like destroying an enemy superweapon.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#155 Post by matrixschmatrix » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:24 am

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Poe's jokey conversation with Hux is meant to get them to keep from firing on him long enough for his afterburners (or something) to charge up- it's intercut with some kind of a meter filling up on his dashboard. And while it makes Hux look stupid, it is also very directly recalling Han's incompetent attempt to calm the situation down over the intercom in the first movie.

I think a lot of the criticisms people (not just here) are making of this movie are based in how it undercuts institutions that we're attached to, how it makes the heroes look foolish and the villains look incompetent, and how none of the subplots really resolve in anyone accomplishing anything- almost everything anyone tries leads directly to failure, to a dead end. I think that's the point, though- as movielocke points out, this is a movie where any kind of survival is a victory, and the large apparent victories go nowhere (Snoke dies, a capital ship and a dreadnaught go down, etc etc, but the First Order does not appear to have lost any particularly significant force.) The bad guys aren't regal Shakespearian actors, they're doofuses or children with poor emotional control, and they fuck up constantly. I don't think that intrinsically means they can't be frightening, though- I think part of what makes Kylo Ren fascinating is that he is so out of control- we were told that losing control of one's emotions leads to the dark side, but Ren is the first time we actually see that convincingly portrayed.

That this breaks with the storytelling mode of other Star Wars movies is likewise productive- it's a movie in a series that was defined by mythmaking and black and white ethical lore which is very explicitly trying to break all that up, to make everyone fallible and to make the sense of what is good and what is evil more finely defined, by actions and by choices instead of by the color of one's helmet. The humor builds on this, too- it's made up largely of bathos, of things not working or of people looking stupid, and it means that these mythic characters never really get all that mythical- something Luke complains about, before giving himself a sendoff worthy of myth. It isn't an entirely successful movie- the whole casino/Benicio Del Toro subplot felt like kind of a nothing, though it's where I think the movie is trying to get a larger sense of its morality across- but it's interesting, and compelling throughout.

I also agree with movielocke about how annoying chosen-by-blood is as a trope, and this movie (assuming they don't do something stupid and undo it) says to hell with it. That powerful Skywalker blood, as Luke describes it, lead him to overconfidence in himself, it lead to Ben Solo, it lead to Snoke stupidly believing that he could snuff out Jedi-ism by killing Skywalker- all wrong. If it turns out Rey is secretly Obi-Wan's kid, or Palpatine's grand daughter, or the reincarnation of Yoda or whatever the hell, I'll be irritated, because Rey being who she is because that is who she is would be far more compelling- and nicely parallel Finn, who became a hero by making a choice.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#156 Post by movielocke » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:55 am

matrixschmatrix wrote:
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(Snoke dies, a capital ship and a dreadnaught go down, etc etc, but the First Order does not appear to have lost any particularly significant force.).
I love your whole post, but regarding this, I wonder just how much of the plot of he last Jedi is indicating the first order is on an all out blitzkrieg
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rushing to accomplish their goal because they know they don’t have the resources to survive anything long and drawn out.

The loss of star killer base followed by the dreadnaught results in snokes ship being forced into action. That suggests they’ve exhausted their supply lines and logistically have no choice but to put the flagship into battle.

This means they have almost certainly outrun or nearly outrun their supply lines have no logistical support whatsoever and while not in the dire straits that the resistance is in, they are not that far off from that point.

If so, it would be reminiscent of the wwii film where the Germans try a desperate smash and grab to steal a fuel supply depot because otherwise they no longer have fuel for their war machine. If so, the first order is in a really bad place because Kylo won’t care, and will only make he situation worse on himself by continuing to overextend and get hammered via attrition and logistics.

In this instance, the first order ultimately fails because they have no allies (they blew up so many planets no one will ally with them unless they have power, but they lost starkiller base) and the entire galaxy unites as a community against their dictatorial libertarianist fascism, and rather than exterminating others they are neutralized in a vat of their own hubris and psychotic baby boomer selfishness. :-D

***
Unrelated, but tie the prequels in, what if force ability was never hereditary before anakin skywalker, and this is why the Jedi call him the chosen one? Because he was the chosen one who could lead their Jedi order to eugenics paradise of total domination of the galaxy, they so obviously inherently deserve as being “benevolent” superior beings.

Snoke then would be one of the Jedi experiments in trying to breed for force ability via clones.

But instead the force balances out (Rey, Finn, others) as _the force awakens_ back to its natural state outside the bounds of eugenics.

The resolution then of the Star Wars sagas skywalker story becomes much more kobayashi, much less Kurosawa.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#157 Post by matrixschmatrix » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:25 am

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It's an interesting thought, and would be more in line with what the tactical situation appeared to be in the last movie- where my impression was, these guys aren't the Imperial fleet, they're a warlord's faction, who only become a real threat because they happen upon a ridiculous superweapon. Here, the implications are that a.) Leia's little fleet is the entirety of the Republic's extant military, and b.) the First Order is both rich enough to be the only source of extreme wealth in the galaxy (which, like- I enjoyed the spirit of the casino scene, which is clearly more meant to be about the luxuries of ultrawealth built on exploitation in the real world, but where did the First Order get all this economic power?) but also militarily powerful enough that a head-on attack is never worthwhile. The last little coda of the movie did seem to be implying a ground-up resistance movement- but again, this would imply a level of control over systems that doesn't really make sense for what previously seemed to be basically highly successful terrorists.

That is a good point that the Skywalkers seem to be the only genetic force-inheritors- and really, from the text of this movie (and one of the characters in Rogue One, it seems as though the Jedi discipline isn't really all that necessary to impressive utilization of the force, such that one would assume force users would be popping up all over the place no matter what happened. One of the implications that I get is that the Jedi ideal of taking people from their families when very young is just a terrible idea- Ben and Anakin both lack the emotional maturity that Luke and Rey have, perhaps because they were too young to make their own choices when they began their training. Also, that's another parallel with Finn- a child who was taken, forced into a discipline, and rebelled against it, eventually killing his own master (only in his case, in the opposite direction.)

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Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#158 Post by movielocke » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:08 pm

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the supplies issue could be another secondary objective in Holdo’s plan. She effectively forced them to burn enormous amounts of fuel while holding their fleet in functionally a static position for x amount of time and muster out an excessive amount of ground troops, all of these can become enormous tactical advantages, particularly if you’re waiting on reinforcements or flanking maneuvers.

Also it was called starkiller base. The base sucked power from its sun and destroyed the solar system and weapon as a result. Even with a self replicating army of von nemann probes doing the construction, transforming a habitable planet (incredibly rare and functionally invaluable) into a weapon you can only fire a few times would still take decades. That amount of capital loss (losing twenty years of building up armaments in favor of a self destructing weapon) simply can’t be sustained by any army nor warlord.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#159 Post by Mr Sausage » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:06 pm

I enjoyed The Last Jedi a lot, and enjoy thinking about it even more. I appreciated that, while The Force Awakens was a lark--fun, amiable, unburdened by seriousness--The Last Jedi is a heavier film, one built around the role of failure and how success is a deferred and contingent thing. As has been pointed out above, it's a film about plans not working--indeed, almost no larger plan works out, leading some of the plotting to seem purposeless to many viewers.
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It's true, the Finn subplot of the second act is the weakest part of the film. But it's not purposeless. Part of it of course is to introduce themes and subthemes that will be reintroduced and resolved within the main plot (the equivocation over good and evil as clear choices; the socioeconomic elements; the larger failures paired with small successes), and part of it is structural, allowing suspense to be generated by further delaying our return to the precipitous scenes with the fleet. But mainly it exists because, without it, the second act would take place solely within small locations and static scenes: a depopulated island and the compartments of ships. Finn's plot serves to open up the world, to provide colour and movement and a sense of life outside of the self-contained situations that are Luke/Rey's and Poe/Leia's scenes. It may be the weakest section, but without it the second act just would not work. You'd feel how static and empty it was. The flaws in Finn's subplot lie more in the execution than the conception. The casino, as a setting, is too blunt, its symbolism too crass, so that you can feel the mechanism working itself out. Plus the escape on horse(deer?)back is too cartoony. So, yeah, the subplot works overall, but a lot of the particulars don't come off.

That's all fine, though, because the other sections are strong enough to make up for it. I thought it was a bit daring how often expectations were undermined in ways that risked audience fulfillment but proved appropriate from the perspective of theme and character. I think for instance of Luke and Rey's relationship. We're primed for another Yoda/Luke relationship, with a reticent Luke eventually choosing to guide Rey and send her off much as he himself left Dagobah at the end of Empire: raw, but ready to become a true Jedi. What we get, tho', is a Luke who quits training Rey almost as soon as he starts, and they leave each other upon Luke not only admitting his past failures, but seeking further failures, even apocalypse. He see his personal failures as also cosmic failures. He's become a solipsist. Rey learns more about him than from him. This pays off, with Luke and Rey completing their arcs as a result of this interaction, but doing so independently of each other. What Rey learns of herself is that she is neither Luke nor Kylo Ken. Luke, as ever, learns his greatest lessons from an old ghost, in this case a crushing lesson with a glimmer of hope at its core: nothing hinged on him succeeding. His failures, his shortcomings, his personal defeats--all the things that doom a character in a drama--are there to make room for more important people who can learn from his failings and do better, be better. This is the opposite of what we learned in the original trilogy: that the ultimate fate of everything hung on the successes of a few important people. Here, Luke learns that the fate of the universe and the Jedi and the balance of good and evil does not rest with him, and to be content with a spotty record that others can learn from. Luke's arc is to relinquish his quest to remain the last jedi, letting everything live or perish with him. He has to close a cycle he had so long deferred, and repeat the Obi-Wan sacrifice that allows the future to escape. Like a forest fire that promotes new growth, and as Kylo Ren maintains, the past has to be burned away to allow the new to flourish. We can take this to be a statement of this new trilogy (no doubt ironically given who holds the reins): the old characters, arcs, and plots must be cycled through until they are exhausted, die off, and are replaced with something new. Star wars is being replayed until it dies and is reborn as something else. This'll undoubtedly go unfulfilled, and I have no doubt the final film will do whatever its makers feel like doing, but it's interesting to see it hinted at.

As ever, the most interesting character continues to be Kylo Ren. He is certainly the most complex, and there are a number of choices here that are unexpected. Killing Snoke is expected because it repeats the Vader arc, but unexpected in terms of when and how. Snoke doesn't quite get to amount to something as we'd been expecting; he's dispatched, and we have forgotten him instantly, so little does he actually matter. This, again, risks leaving the audience unfulfilled, but I think the choice acquits itself with how it allows something far more interesting and central to progress unmediated: the Rey/Kylo relationship. Again, the old is shattered to make way for the new. Indeed, I think the movie attempts to fix a mistake in Return of the Jedi, in which Vader is subordinated and his conflict with Luke reduced in favour of a less satisfying conflict between Luke and a figure of uncomplicated evil, the emperor. The Last Jedi rectifies this by offing the figure of uncomplicated evil not at the climax, but at the point where the climax begins. This leaves a complicated pairing between two characters who are similar, connected, in sympathy, perhaps knowing each other better than they know anyone else, and yet also opposing figures structuring a larger drama. And with the larger abstractions of good and evil shadowing the story either dispatched, as with Snoke, or deflated, as with Luke, the drama can finally proceed along less mystical and more human terms. Star Wars is coming out from under the weight of Lucas' mythology and metaphysics and becoming a human drama of characters, choices, and values. Once Snoke dies, the choices put to Kylo and Rey are not the go light or go dark variety of the Lucas films. The metaphysics dies immediately. Their choices are more recognizably dramatic and don't seem to hinge on whether either affirms good or evil in an abstract sense. Kylo refuses because he wants free of all the burdens of the past that torment him; Rey refuses because of her need to affirm all the connections she made once she left her isolation and unfulfilled waiting behind. They made their choices based on things that would still be true were there no dark/light side metaphysics at all. The movie abandons Lucas' vague and lumbering Manichaeism for regular dramatic motivation.
There are other things to talk about, but for me the interesting thing is summed by how the important, burning questions of The Force Awakens--who is Snoke, what is Rey's parentage--have unimportant answers. I like that.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#160 Post by All the Best People » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:44 am

As for Finn's subplot:
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It is fairly purposeless in terms of the overall plot, but does carry weight thematically (in terms of picking a side based on principles vs. picking one based on immediate personal gain, which can be nebulous) and it tries to carry weight in terms of character. I didn't really buy the latter because the end of the film felt like it was trying to establish some romantic connection between Finn and Rose, and there was zero romantic heat between the two of them, and such a lack of such chemistry that I wonder if they had additional relationship-building scenes on the cutting room floor.

It was for me the least successful major element of the film, partially because it also includes Benicio del Toro's gratingly self-parodying performance, which didn't work for me in the least, and the useless return of Phasma. I also didn't particularly care for the milked walrus, the Caretakers, or BB-8 shooting coins at casino guards, but those were minor elements.
I have now seen the film for a second time; after a first viewing, I worried that I was trying to talk myself into liking it more than I really did or it justified, but, no, there's is just way too much good stuff in this movie for it to be disregarded. All the Rey/Ren/Snoke stuff continues to shine -- basically anything that has to do with The Force and its users -- and the climactic visual of
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Laura Dern's plot
might be the most stunning set of shots in any film of the franchise. I don't think it connects on every swing, but it's sure swinging for the fences in a way that's exciting after the relative safety of The Force Awakens (a movie I enjoy quite a bit and even more than this one, but I think something of a "restoration" was required and was very open to mixing things up in the subsequent episodes, which so far is in effect).

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#161 Post by bearcuborg » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:30 am

Haldo’s final mission made me think of Attack of the Clones. Jango Fett’s seismic charges were a blast in the theater.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#162 Post by Big Ben » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:50 am

Mr Sausage wrote:I enjoyed The Last Jedi a lot, and enjoy thinking about it even more. I appreciated that, while The Force Awakens was a lark--fun, amiable, unburdened by seriousness--The Last Jedi is a heavier film, one built around the role of failure and how success is a deferred and contingent thing. As has been pointed out above, it's a film about plans not working--indeed, almost no larger plan works out, leading some of the plotting to seem purposeless to many viewers.
I think this is why it works for me as well. Star Wars lore has always in my opinion taken itself far too seriously.
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And now that some plot points have been shown to been fruitless endeavors it's certainly angered quite a few people. To each their own I suppose though. The animosity I see surround what Luke "should have been" is what makes me question a lot of things though. He was never this perfect hero and people were shocked to find Johnson reaffirm this? It feels almost like someone pointing out all those heroes you had in your past weren't exactly these knights in shining armor. And in confirming this Johnson seems to have opened the hellmouth. The Last Jedi is by no means a perfect film but it certainly feels like the most self conscious one. Something I think Star Wars desperately needed.
There are other things to talk about, but for me the interesting thing is summed by how the important, burning questions of The Force Awakens--who is Snoke, what is Rey's parentage--have unimportant answers. I like that.
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I see a lot of animosity online about this, mainly from the people who are made their fan theories weren't accommodated. In the end I though that the message, specifically with Rey and other plot points was that anyone could achieve greatness (The young child draws the broom to his hand with the force.) In short the Force isn't just something the brooding and arrogant Jedi can use.
I do wonder how they'll deal with Carrie Fisher however. She clearly finished all her scenes as we all know but resolving her very real world death without offending people...isn't a job I'd want even if you'd pay me.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#163 Post by swo17 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:54 am

They should handle it exactly like NewsRadio handled Phil Hartman's death.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#164 Post by Finch » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:25 am

They could simply start Episode 9 with Leia's funeral. Problem fixed.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#165 Post by McCrutchy » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:48 pm

Finch wrote:They could simply start Episode 9 with Leia's funeral. Problem fixed.
Well, in all likelihood, Leia wasn't going to survive Episode IX, anyway, so I'm sure from a series writing standpoint, nobody's that fussed. In these people's minds, I'm sure Leia was never there for much more than fan service, anyway--
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her "job" could have been done by any older female character, as Rain Johnson proved.
I will admit that I'm (slightly) morbidly curious as to where the franchise will go, only in the sense that it is becoming so bland that it would be amusing to see future entries succeed or fail. I suppose Disney's Marvel films prove that people want this kind of entertainment, but I wonder if it's not all coming to a boiling point, and if as a result, one of these films is eventually a relative bomb (i.e. less than, say $800 million, or less than $300 million domestic). I certainly know that this trilogy is over for me, and I can't see myself seeing any of the future films if they continue in the spirit of these two.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#166 Post by bearcuborg » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:18 pm

McCrutchy wrote:
Finch wrote:They could simply start Episode 9 with Leia's funeral. Problem fixed.
In these people's minds, I'm sure Leia was never there for much more than fan service, anyway--
I don’t think we saw the same movies...Leia for the most part, was used magnificently in this film-it’s clear they had something in mind for her in IX as well. Unfortunately Carrie never shared a scene with Adam Driver-and that has to be a monumental challenge for JJ and company to solve.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#167 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:14 pm

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I thought the fact that ultimately Like was merely a "just barely good enough" hero was fine.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#168 Post by Feiereisel » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:16 pm

bearcuborg wrote:
McCrutchy wrote:
Finch wrote:They could simply start Episode 9 with Leia's funeral. Problem fixed.
In these people's minds, I'm sure Leia was never there for much more than fan service, anyway--
I don’t think we saw the same movies...Leia for the most part, was used magnificently in this film-it’s clear they had something in mind for her in IX as well. Unfortunately Carrie never shared a scene with Adam Driver-and that has to be a monumental challenge for JJ and company to solve.
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Given that both movies end with Kylo squaring off with a member of the central trio and that a significant moment in THE LAST JEDI involved Kylo deciding not to blow up the bridge of Leia’s command ship, it’s not unreasonable that IX would have culminated with some kind of Leia and Kylo moment that would tie the previous films together.

I might be trying too hard to “solve” the story, but Rey and Kylo’s arcs are both about mothers and fathers (literal or otherwise); they were driving toward something that will now need to be adapted or reworked in light of the circumstances.
Also, I’ve always taken the term “fan service” to mean creators actively pandering to hardcore fans. While there definitely has been some original trilogy fan service in these new films, I think the creators have done a great job of not stuffing them with pointless and intrusive winks and nods. The “significant moment” in THE FORCE AWAKES and much of THE LAST JEDI do not read like fan service to me. They either add to or actively undercut the events of the original films in considered—and obviously controversial—ways.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#169 Post by Big Ben » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:15 pm

bearcuborg wrote: I don’t think we saw the same movies...Leia for the most part, was used magnificently in this film-it’s clear they had something in mind for her in IX as well. Unfortunately Carrie never shared a scene with Adam Driver-and that has to be a monumental challenge for JJ and company to solve.
And this is my concern. If you kill her off a certain way it looks like she died from being sad about "x" which isn't a good look. I think people will be more lenient because Fisher actually died in reality but it's going to take some effort to make it work in a manner that won't cause problems.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#170 Post by swo17 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:40 pm

$10 says
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the opening crawl announces that Kylo Ren has killed Leia.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#171 Post by aox » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:28 pm

swo17 wrote:$10 says
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the opening crawl announces that Kylo Ren has killed Leia.
Nice, and in the SW universe that could be a stand alone 2 1/2 film in and of itself like Rouge 1!

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#172 Post by R0lf » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:16 pm

If they're rounding out the Skywalker story altogether having episode IX start with Ren visiting a Padme/Leia family grave on Naboo with no other explanation on how Leia went would be a decent way to go. They could even throw in a force ghost Luke conversation.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#173 Post by swo17 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:57 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:I haven't seen it yet, but aren't any and all new additions to The Last Jedi the things that are garnering the most anger from hardcore Star Wars fans?
The most frequent complaints I've seen are the inclusion of a certain socially conscious minority character and Luke not being the same person he was in his twenties.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#174 Post by Big Ben » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:36 pm

swo17 wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:I haven't seen it yet, but aren't any and all new additions to The Last Jedi the things that are garnering the most anger from hardcore Star Wars fans?
The most frequent complaints I've seen are the inclusion of a certain socially conscious minority character and Luke not being the same person he was in his twenties.
I had one gentleman tell me this was much more okay than Rose who happens to be Asian telling me she didn't fit within the lore and was shoehorned in for Social Justice points. These are the same folks who tend to ignore Watto. Who is totally not a caricature. When I pointed this out to him he hand-waved it away.

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Brian C
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#175 Post by Brian C » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:43 pm

swo17 wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:I haven't seen it yet, but aren't any and all new additions to The Last Jedi the things that are garnering the most anger from hardcore Star Wars fans?
The most frequent complaints I've seen are ... Luke not being the same person he was in his twenties.
This could have been solved by casting Bruce Willis as the old version of the character, thus dramatizing the way that even though it's the same character, they're really more like two different people.

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