Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

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Altair
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1551 Post by Altair » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:16 pm

Neither the old Studio Canal or the Universal releases were ideal (the former was edge-enhanced, the latter DNR'ed), so hopefully it's finally been treated right (and not pushed towards the teal-end of the colour spectrum, either...).

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1552 Post by tenia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:20 pm

I'm more afraid about SC tendancies to DNR and very poorly encode their movies. In this case at least, putting the extras aside is a good sign (though most of them are probably in SD so it might seem a bit extreme).

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1553 Post by Altair » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:32 pm

Their edition of the restored Ran however, was excellent (the colours were of course debatable, but not their fault), so I'm optimistic about the encode.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1554 Post by tenia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:01 pm

Yes, they have some hits but also plenty of misses. They DNRed most of their French Bergman releases, FUBARed the encode on Le magnifique (French release), Highlander and The Man Who Fell To Earth (on top of missing the restoration), and of course there is their trainwrecks that are Terminator 2 and Purple Noon.
However, Ran was very good, and the utmost majority of their UK Vintage Classics are tremendous.

It's always been rumored they have 2 technical teams, one good and one not so much. Let's just hope in this case, they gave the project to the good one.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1555 Post by rapta » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:45 am

FWIW, their recent discs of Blood Simple, Mulholland Drive and The Graduate looked great to me. And I agree that Ran looked fantastic (colour debate aside).

It's a shame they got The Man Who Fell To Earth so wrong after getting The Third Man so right.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1556 Post by tenia » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:15 am

The Graduate, MD and Blood Simple were restorations not performed by / for them. Mulholland Drive was performed at Colorworks / Fotokem, most have input from Deluxe Culver City or Colorworks and all 3 show input from Criterion's own Lee Kline.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1557 Post by Jonathan S » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:42 am

rapta wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:45 am
…. after getting The Third Man so right.
Only on the image side, according to this analysis of the "restored" soundtrack.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1558 Post by rapta » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:02 am

tenia wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:15 am
The Graduate, MD and Blood Simple were restorations not performed by / for them. Mulholland Drive was performed at Colorworks / Fotokem, most have input from Deluxe Culver City or Colorworks and all 3 show input from Criterion's own Lee Kline.
Sorry I thought we were talking encodes (was already aware these were not examples of in-house restoration).

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1559 Post by tenia » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:06 am

rapta wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:02 am
tenia wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:15 am
The Graduate, MD and Blood Simple were restorations not performed by / for them. Mulholland Drive was performed at Colorworks / Fotokem, most have input from Deluxe Culver City or Colorworks and all 3 show input from Criterion's own Lee Kline.
Sorry I thought we were talking encodes (was already aware these were not examples of in-house restoration).
Ah OK, my bad then. Then yes, these encodes were very good (at least MD was performed by David Mackenzie), but they seem to be rather the exception than the rule. I'm for instance quite eager to see their new Dam Busters disc because it looks quite good but I can't understand why they would give such a new seemingly lavish restoration the same AVB than the previous disc, an AVS which is relatively mediocre (20.5 Mbps).
Jonathan S wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:42 am
rapta wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:45 am
…. after getting The Third Man so right.
Only on the image side, according to this analysis of the "restored" soundtrack.
We'll never thank Moshrom enough for his work on soundtracks and I hope he'll be able to do some more. It's probably the best investigative work there has been on AQ, which made me realise AQ analysis and review is like 15 years late compared to PQ.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1560 Post by Costa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:12 am

Trailer for the new 4K restoration of The Deer Hunter.
I'm extremely happy that it doesn't seem that the film has been tealified!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7q1SjVdsNk

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Re: La Religieuse

#1561 Post by feckless boy » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:23 am

The trailer for La Religieuse looks way too "tealy" to me. Granted it has been a few years since I saw an actual print, but that's not the way I remember It.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1562 Post by tenia » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:06 am

I suppose this is an Eclair restoration, since some of their restorations have this exact same grading (Pinoteau's Le silencieux, very recently, but also Sautet's Une histoire simple, Tarkovski's The Sacrifice, and Malle's Atlantic City, Black Moon & Lucien Lacombe, notably). I thus, like Ritrovata's yellow LUT table, doubt this is totally accurate.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1563 Post by fdm » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:31 pm

I don't recall it looking like that on filmstruck either.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1564 Post by 4LOM » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:46 am

tenia wrote:I suppose this is an Eclair restoration, since some of their restorations have this exact same grading (Pinoteau's Le silencieux, very recently, but also Sautet's Une histoire simple, Tarkovski's The Sacrifice, and Malle's Atlantic City, Black Moon & Lucien Lacombe, notably). I thus, like Ritrovata's yellow LUT table, doubt this is totally accurate.
It is a Ritrovata restoration

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1565 Post by tenia » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:04 am

My bad about the lab, then (though it doesn't change my feeling about the color timing).

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1566 Post by Tommaso » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:12 pm

As someone who has an older French dvd release (with fansubs added) and who has seen the film more than once on TV in the 1980s and 90s, allow me to say that this colour scheme - if it's on the actual release and not just on this trailer -appears to be even more appallingly wrong than what was done to "The Tree of Wooden Clogs" in Criterion's release. Truly awful and a travesty of Rivette's and Levant's extremely careful and beautiful camerawork.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1567 Post by jsteffe » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:17 pm

Someone who just came back from the Bologna festival told me that L'Immagine Ritrovata fixed their LUT problem in 2016, so newer restorations shouldn't be affected by the same teal/yellow push that marred their work on THE COLOR OF POMEGRANATES and A FISTFUL OF DOLLARS. But after seeing this Rivette trailer I remain skeptical until I see clear evidence otherwise.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1568 Post by tenia » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:06 am

I'd be wary of that claim for 2 reasons :
- Ritrovata's main LUT issue is their "yellow bias + milky blacks" look. Getting rid of that would get issue of, to me, only one of the current grading issues, the other being the standardised colder metallic blue look some movies have, though this look more often come from Eclair than Ritrovata.
- the 2016 cut-off about fixing their LUTs : the Bruce Lee movies were restored in 2016, like Legend of the Mountain. All 5 have the usual yellow Ritrovata look, just like their 2013 and 15 restorations (namely : Dargon Inn and A Better Tomorrow). Gli specialisti was restored in 2017, and while it isn't the blanket Ritrovata grading, you can still see it pour through some sequences (interior ones mostly). I can't find many other 2017 restorations they've performed to be sure.

This being said, if they "fixed" it, at least it'd mean they're aware of having something to improve and actively working on it, so that's positive !

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Re: La Religieuse

#1569 Post by Petty Bourgeoisie » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:23 am

feckless boy wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:23 am
The trailer for La Religieuse looks way too "tealy" to me. Granted it has been a few years since I saw an actual print, but that's not the way I remember It.
That looks just awful! It's bad teal on the level of Criterion's The Color of Pomegranates or Kino's Je T'aime Je T'aime.

Are these technological workflow problems or conscious decisions?

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1570 Post by tenia » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:36 am

My understanding is that both standardised gradings are conscious decisions from the concerned laboratories.
The most popular theory is that Ritrovata have a Print Film Emulation LUT to try and get the end result to look like a theatrical projection of the films back then. In other words, they're willingly trying to emulate the look of a release print. The issue is that this doesn't seem to suit the fact they're doing this digitally from the OCN, making the end result incorrect. The other issue is that these movies now all look like they were shot with the same photography in mind, bearing more the laboratory signature than having the look of their DoP, film stock and lighting material, which seems crazy to me. I understand trying to give these movies a certain look, but surely, this shouldn't mean they all look similar in the end, no ?

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1571 Post by Petty Bourgeoisie » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:58 am

tenia wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:36 am
My understanding is that both standardised gradings are conscious decisions from the concerned laboratories.
The most popular theory is that Ritrovata have a Print Film Emulation LUT to try and get the end result to look like a theatrical projection of the films back then. In other words, they're willingly trying to emulate the look of a release print. The issue is that this doesn't seem to suit the fact they're doing this digitally from the OCN, making the end result incorrect. The other issue is that these movies now all look like they were shot with the same photography in mind, bearing more the laboratory signature than having the look of their DoP, film stock and lighting material, which seems crazy to me. I understand trying to give these movies a certain look, but surely, this shouldn't mean they all look similar in the end, no ?
Makes perfect sense to me. At the labs why can't they see the problem and then fix it when the problem is so obvious to all?

When I use EpsonScan on my computer to scan in old color photographs, there is a "color restoration" option. When that box is selected it immediately turns the image icy blue and/or teal. It is so obvious to me, that I use the color restoration feature exactly zero percent of the time! Why are these lab professionals no seeing that their work is incorrect? It's quite confounding and has been going on for several years. Maybe this issue will never get fixed.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1572 Post by tenia » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:29 am

Without wanting to point fingers more precisely to some lab people, who remains nevertheless professionals, and should thus have reasons behind that, this might be to me the biggest question.

As I wrote many times, I'm not so much bothered byt the end result than the general standardisation of this result on so many movies that have never been said to have similar photographies. Out of any lack of references, or difficulties over doing the color corrections right (which is admittedly the most challenging part of a restoration due to the sum of possibilities), someone there should have wondered if giving the same general absolute look to all these movies was correct. And I mean, I have about 30 to 40 movies which now have the same kind of color tendencies. This is a lot.

I'm also particularly curious about how their outside references (directors, DoPs, etc) yet didn't prevent that, though James' observations on The Colour of Pomegranates and Camera Obscura's experience with them leads to me to believe they might have showed these people something that wasn't the very final result.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1573 Post by nitin » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:30 am

Well if the particular LUTs are applied after the restoration is otherwise complete, that would explain a lot of approvals that have been given by directors/DoPs etc to masters that have led to questionable blu ray releases.

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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum

#1574 Post by jsteffe » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:56 am

tenia wrote:My understanding is that both standardised gradings are conscious decisions from the concerned laboratories.
The most popular theory is that Ritrovata have a Print Film Emulation LUT to try and get the end result to look like a theatrical projection of the films back then. In other words, they're willingly trying to emulate the look of a release print. The issue is that this doesn't seem to suit the fact they're doing this digitally from the OCN, making the end result incorrect. The other issue is that these movies now all look like they were shot with the same photography in mind, bearing more the laboratory signature than having the look of their DoP, film stock and lighting material, which seems crazy to me. I understand trying to give these movies a certain look, but surely, this shouldn't mean they all look similar in the end, no ?
Tenia, that's essentially what I heard, too. In fact, if you look at the Pomegranates restoration with video scopes, the gain on the blue channel is reduced across the board and the entire channel is offset downward compared to the green and red. So it is more of a yellow push in general, but depending on the contents of specific shots green or teal may pop out.

The end result is that the look of the film (as I have seen it projected multiple times with different prints in different venues) is not successfully translated into an all digital environment. And it was only intended for screening on DCP.

In any case, I will wait to see how the Rivette actually turned out.

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