Criterion and UHD

The scuttlebutt on Criterion, Eclipse, and Janus Films. Lists and polls are STRONGLY discouraged.
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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#101 Post by tenia » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:16 pm

McCrutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:01 pm
In terms of dual-format, I suspect the split is more in favor of Blu-ray now than it was in 2013 or 2014. And I think, tenia, that you're ignoring the other side of the dual-format argument as well, that Blu-ray buyers resented having to get releases in digipaks, which often contained two essentially useless (to us) DVD discs and made each release considerably bulkier and more susceptible to damage during shipping.
As I wrote in my original post, I suspect this argument is vastly over estimating the amount of BD users that care about that. For all we know, some people were probably happy to get what is perceived by some as more deluxe packagings (I know I did) and they're not buying enough stuff for them to care about DF releases to be slightly bulkier. I also strongly believe that people overly caring about not having a single ting on their digipacks are vastly over represented on dedicated boards. I remember some of the arguments against digis being that they fall apart over time. I have some 15 years old digis that never fell apart, while the one I have whose plastic plates don't glue to the cardboard anymore basically was like this from Day 1.
McCrutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:01 pm
In terms of audio, we agree that it is a minor consideration, but it still is a consideration for a company like Criterion going UHD. There are more and more films using object-based audio, and while I don't expect it to become as standard as 4K will be for video, I do expect that eventually, Criterion will cross paths with films that are mixed for Atmos or DTS:X, and I don't expect they will want to eschew those formats. And just as we have Jabberwocky on Blu-ray with only a DTS-HD MA 5.1 remix, or The Game on Blu-ray with two different DTS-HD MA 5.1 mixes, or sex, lies and videotape on Blu-ray with high-res 96/24 DTS-HD MA 5.1 audio, I expect that occasionally, Criterion will bow to a filmmakers request or demand to use Atmos/DTS:X, either as an existing option, or by producing a supervised remix.
And again, that's only a very minor part of what Criterion is releasing. Sure, there are a few titles that will call for that, but as a I wrote, it's only a few.
UHD and Object-based tracks is mostly used for new movies, and that's just not what Criterion main field of work. Even some of their newer movies would be a weird selection for Atmos remixes. I mean, what additional sales is to gain from having the new Kaurismaki upgraded to Atmos ? How many people are going to whine if it's not the case.
McCrutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:01 pm
I'm not sure I agree about HDR, either. Sure, Gaumont released Les Tontons flingueurs on UHD in SDR (and just for the record, it's a 100 GB disc), but so far, SDR releases have generally been poorly reviewed in this country. Obviously, with Logan Noir the only other example of a "black and white" movie on UHD, the jury is still out on them, and perhaps SDR makes more sense for black and white films, but for color films, at least, I should think that HDR is a must, and Criterion will want to use whatever tools are best for that, possibly including Dolby Vision.
What I meant is that I'm quite certain HDR, and then DV, creates another kind of upgrade, and I was told HDR is useful even for older, including B&W, movies, but for most of them, the HDR additions are subtle enough to make me doubt whether the question of waiting for DV is important. But again, I was told at the same time that it was best to scan in HDR directly, so if Criterion and independent labels want to go with HDR, restorations would need to be prepped for that.

SDR releases have otherwise been poorly reviewed in this country because they mostly are for newer movies that should have been HDRed for their UHD. However, we've had the discussion in France about Valerian, whose French release was SDR while the US was HDR, and the conclusion was that actually, the HDR US release wasn't so much better (and probably had burnt whites).

As for Les tontons, it's a UHD-100 because it's one of the few discs to port its extras on the UHD (maybe because of the lack of HDR). The movie itself, I believe, weighs about 58 Go fora 67Mbps AVB, which would fit on a UHD-66. :wink:

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#102 Post by fdm » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:24 pm

Regular blu-ray handles Atmos/DTS:X just fine (more or less), UHD is unnecessary.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#103 Post by tenia » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:03 pm

On top of that, indeed, but the presence of this kind of tracks is "expected" on UHDs, while they aren't on BD.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#104 Post by fdm » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:15 pm

A better way of putting it is being held hostage by UHD, no reason they can't be on the blu-ray as well.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#105 Post by denti alligator » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:40 pm

Interesting discussion. I wouldn't make the jump to UHD until the price of 4K projectors drops below $1K, which I don't think will be anytime soon.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#106 Post by tenia » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:40 am

fdm wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:15 pm
A better way of putting it is being held hostage by UHD, no reason they can't be on the blu-ray as well.
It's not what I meant. What I meant is that many people do expect contemporary UHD releases to come with a vertical mix, being Atmos or X, as if it was the basic soundtrack requirement. Not having one is almost perceived as a deal-breaker for these UHD releases.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#107 Post by fdm » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:11 pm

Got it now. Sort of like lossless audio should be mandatory for blu-ray.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#108 Post by david hare » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:08 pm

Sam you can currently buy 4k D!P single chip UHD projectors from LG and Optpma for under 1500 USD.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#109 Post by denti alligator » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:17 pm

david hare wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:08 pm
Sam you can currently buy 4k D!P single chip UHD projectors from LG and Optpma for under 1500 USD.
Yes, I knew that, but I can't handle the DLP rainbow effect. Wish it didn't bother me, because DLP has much better color uniformity than LCD. What I wouldn't do for a quality, color totally uniform, non-DLP projector! I figure when 4K LCDs drop low enough I might be able to afford a higher end 1080p on which I can watch b&w movies that aren't shades of red and green.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#110 Post by david hare » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:58 pm

I have the Optoma UHD65 which has the larger color wheel than those cheaper models. I am also sensitive to rainbow (had Lasik twenty years ago) but after extensive auditioning erc I could only really see rainbows in the white credits from the Ridley Scott Prometheus. It seems only white slivers set it off. Dont see it it anything else. I al so chose this model for better wheel, better spec generally. Actually its fucking superb.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#111 Post by FrauBlucher » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:13 am

tenia wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:30 am
So, is BD the standard Criterion format ? I don't think so. It certainly is their flagship and most respected one, but for all we know, DVD-users were strong enough to strong-arm Criterion into revising their whole selling strategy and going backwards to exactly where they were before, showing it definitely remains a driving force. Otherwise, Criterion wouldn’t have cared when they went DF.
Just a little anecdote.... I was in a Barnes and Noble Saturday morning. It's a huge store. Very big movie and music section. The store sits north of Union Square in NYC, which is a very busy area that includes NYU. After purchasing Marketa Lavarova, I asked the section manager what they sell more of, Criterion DVDs or Criterion blurays. Before I can finish my sentence he emphatically blurted out blurays.

I know that this is a small sample size of one store, granted a big one with heavy in store traffic, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was the standard and not an anomaly.

On a side note.... Criterion's office is two short blocks from this store.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#112 Post by tenia » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:44 am

A 60/40 split is already aside of the industry current format split (which rather is 70/30, or even 80/20) so why not after all, but I'd again argue that if that's such a case, they would have been able not to ditch Dual Formats but they had to seemingly because of their DVD consumers. So they seem to be still quite powerful.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#113 Post by TMDaines » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:14 am

denti alligator wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:40 pm
Interesting discussion. I wouldn't make the jump to UHD until the price of 4K projectors drops below $1K, which I don't think will be anytime soon.
This seems the biggest barrier to me and many others. You can get outstanding value in 1080p projectors in the sub $1000 price bracket, but there's nothing equivalent in 4k. Who wants to go from say a 92 inch projection to a 50-odd inch TV, even with an uptick in resolution and other such niceties?

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#114 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:24 am

HDR televisions just took a steep price drop thanks to an off-brand (TCL) Roku model that nearly stacks up to more expensive LG televisions that is coming in at around $500-600 for a 55", which is substantially less than the big brands, and they're sure to start falling to keep pace. I'm sure we'll see that with projectors sooner or later, and it could happen about as suddenly as this did.

I paid $2500 (on sale!) for a top of the line LG OLED 65" with all the bells and whistles at the end of last year, and while it hasn't come down yet, I'm sure the arrival of a ton of praise for this TCL model [it's $1000 for a 65"] could start to force their hand.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#115 Post by dwk » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:31 pm

from this interview with Soderbergh
So for instance, even though we might’ve ingested the movie at 4K 10 or 12 years ago for the Sony Blu-ray, the scanners that exist today are a lot better – and now we have HDR. So even though, in this case, it was just coming out on Blu-ray, I requested, and Criterion agreed, to create a 4K HDR version of the master in preparation for a time when either Criterion starts making those kinds of streams available or there’s a decision down the road to put out a physical 4K HDR Blu-ray. I wanted to be ready for all of that.

It also coincided with a project that I think is going to take a long, long time, which is to attempt to get everything I’ve done re-mastered and brought into the 4K HDR world. We’ve been spending a lot of time lately focusing on some of the titles that have reverted back to me and that I control. I’m reaching out to all the companies that I’ve worked with in the past to see if they’d be interested in going back and re-mastering the films in this new format. The good news is that totally coincidentally, Fox decided on their own to go back and re-master Solaris in 4K HDR and I just saw that two weeks ago. So we’re chipping away at it.
If Criterion is willing to go to the expense of creating a 4K HDR version, I think they have to be planning on starting to release UHDs

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Re: Steven Soderbergh

#116 Post by The Narrator Returns » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:32 pm

Soderbergh revealed in an interview with Filmmaker Magazine that Fox is working on an HDR 4K master of Solaris, so at least somebody will be releasing it.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#117 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:34 pm

Soderbergh turns on Domino in a big spot. What happened to loyalty to your biggest fans, Steven?

All kidding aside: Fuck yeah. So glad for this man's continued existence on the planet. If he's the one who lights a fire under Criterion's ass to start releasing these discs, I will send him a bouquet.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#118 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:51 pm

I don't know if anyone recalls, but it was Soderbergh's Blu-Ray only extras that pushed me into finally getting a player years ago

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#119 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:02 pm

That's very funny. Was it any one release in particular?

As nerdy as we are about this stuff, it's amusing and heartening that (at least some) filmmakers are even more obsessive about being on the cutting edge of home video technology!

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#120 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:12 pm

I think it was the Ocean's movies. Granted, I was teetering on the inevitable ledge already, but as I recall those pushed me

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#121 Post by Oedipax » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:25 pm

That's terrific news about Solaris - one of my favorite of his films, and long overdue for some kind of HD release, let alone 4K HDR.

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Re: Steven Soderbergh

#122 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:17 pm

I wonder if James Cameron made that happen, as opposed to the studio doing it on their own initiative. Even if Fox is coming around to the idea of embracing releasing more 4K catalog titles on their own I'm surprised this would be one they'd do.

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