Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
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tenia
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#451 Post by tenia » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:19 am

I also suppose that anything that isn't in the set was out of Criterion's reach from a right-holding perspective.

Calvin
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#452 Post by Calvin » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:21 am

Face to Face is the only title that's exclusion is understandable. It's hard to think that any of the other titles were out of reach.



mteller
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#453 Post by mteller » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:00 pm

It's possible that some of the TV films are considered so "minor" that they weren't deemed worthy. I like all of these, but the added cost of restoring/transferring them (if there are even decent elements to work with) might have jacked up the price of the box:

Herr Sleeman kommer (1957) Mr. Sleeman Is Coming
Venetianskan (1958) The Venetian
Oväder (1960) Storm
Ett drömspel (1963) A Dream Play
Hustruskolan (1983) School for Girls
De två saliga (1986) The Blessed Ones
Markisinnan de Sade (1992) Madame de Sade
The Last Gasp (1995)
In the Presence of a Clown (1997)
Bildmakarna (2000) The Image Makers
Spöksonaten (2007) The Ghost Sonata

Of course, I'm not actually complaining about not enough Bergman being released. None of these are huge oversights or anything (though I'm especially fond of Presence of a Clown).

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tenia
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#454 Post by tenia » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:21 pm

I always thought In the Presence of a Clown was actually quite a well known Bergman TV movie and not a particularly minor one.

Calvin
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#455 Post by Calvin » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:30 pm

It's the exclusion of Prison that is the most difficult to understand. It's major Bergman, and the first film he directed from his own screenplay - a pretty major landmark in the context of 'Ingmar Bergman's Cinema'.

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dwk
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#456 Post by dwk » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:31 pm

tenia wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:19 am
I also suppose that anything that isn't in the set was out of Criterion's reach from a right-holding perspective.
I don't know. As I mentioned in the Arrow Announcement thread, a post at the Home Theater Forum claims that Janus has the rights to Prison and Music in Darkness. If accurate, I suspect that they were excluded because they aren't Svensk Filmindustri titles.

Calvin
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#457 Post by Calvin » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:55 pm

dwk wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:31 pm
tenia wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:19 am
I also suppose that anything that isn't in the set was out of Criterion's reach from a right-holding perspective.
I don't know. As I mentioned in the Arrow Announcement thread, a post at the Home Theater Forum claims that Janus has the rights to Prison and Music in Darkness. If accurate, I suspect that they were excluded because they aren't Svensk Filmindustri titles.
Aren't they though? SF claim international rights to both of those titles. I can't seem to find a listing for It Rains On Our Love, but seeing as ArtificIal Eye was able to include it alongside SF titles I can't imagine that being an issue.

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The Fanciful Norwegian
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#458 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:22 pm

mteller wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:00 pm
It's possible that some of the TV films are considered so "minor" that they weren't deemed worthy. I like all of these, but the added cost of restoring/transferring them (if there are even decent elements to work with) might have jacked up the price of the box:

Herr Sleeman kommer (1957) Mr. Sleeman Is Coming
Venetianskan (1958) The Venetian
Oväder (1960) Storm
Ett drömspel (1963) A Dream Play
Hustruskolan (1983) School for Girls
De två saliga (1986) The Blessed Ones
Markisinnan de Sade (1992) Madame de Sade
The Last Gasp (1995)
In the Presence of a Clown (1997)
Bildmakarna (2000) The Image Makers
Spöksonaten (2007) The Ghost Sonata
I'm pretty sure all of the titles here were shot on SD video, with the possible exception of Spöksonaten which could've been HD given the date. The circulating copies of Herr Sleeman kommer and Venetianskan are also clearly sourced from kinescopes, and a particularly poor one (with constant rolling-bar problem) in the case of the first. So these would never be up to the AV standards of the other movies in the set, though this in and of itself doesn't necessarily explain their exclusion—as tenia noted, In the Presence of a Clown is not a particularly obscure work and even had its international premiere at Cannes.

(A side note: I recall reading somewhere that Bergman shot his post-After the Rehearsal TV work exclusively on video because he was unhappy when that film was sold abroad for theatrical distribution and apparently felt that shooting on video would help prevent that in the future. I guess he mellowed somewhat over the years, given that In the Presence of a Clown had some theatrical play on the festival circuit and of course Saraband was widely distributed in theaters.)

FlickeringWindow
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#459 Post by FlickeringWindow » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:30 pm

dwk wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:31 pm
tenia wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:19 am
I also suppose that anything that isn't in the set was out of Criterion's reach from a right-holding perspective.
I don't know. As I mentioned in the Arrow Announcement thread, a post at the Home Theater Forum claims that Janus has the rights to Prison and Music in Darkness. If accurate, I suspect that they were excluded because they aren't Svensk Filmindustri titles.
A Ship to India, Brink of Life, The Magic Flute, The Touch, Faro Document, The Serpent's Egg, and Saraband were licensed from others than SF

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dwk
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#460 Post by dwk » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:26 pm

FlickeringWindow wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:30 pm
A Ship to India, Brink of Life, The Magic Flute, The Touch, Faro Document, The Serpent's Egg, and Saraband were licensed from others than SF
Yes, but I was under the impression that almost all of the masters were provided by SF. Anyway, if Calvin is correct and SF does have international rights to those two missing titles, then who knows why they weren't included.

Calvin
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#461 Post by Calvin » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:42 pm

Prison
Music in the Dark

However, they were both produced by Terrafilm at the time if that's significant.

SF should also have the rights to High Tension / This Can't Happen Here, its absence presumably down to Bergman not wishing for it to be shown - though a new restoration has been screened at MOMA and the BFI in recent months. It would have been particularly fascinating to see the English version of that, so hopefully somebody releases it soon.

ari101
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#462 Post by ari101 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:16 am

The Fanciful Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:22 pm
mteller wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:00 pm
It's possible that some of the TV films are considered so "minor" that they weren't deemed worthy. I like all of these, but the added cost of restoring/transferring them (if there are even decent elements to work with) might have jacked up the price of the box:

Herr Sleeman kommer (1957) Mr. Sleeman Is Coming
Venetianskan (1958) The Venetian
Oväder (1960) Storm
Ett drömspel (1963) A Dream Play
Hustruskolan (1983) School for Girls
De två saliga (1986) The Blessed Ones
Markisinnan de Sade (1992) Madame de Sade
The Last Gasp (1995)
In the Presence of a Clown (1997)
Bildmakarna (2000) The Image Makers
Spöksonaten (2007) The Ghost Sonata
I'm pretty sure all of the titles here were shot on SD video, with the possible exception of Spöksonaten which could've been HD given the date. The circulating copies of Herr Sleeman kommer and Venetianskan are also clearly sourced from kinescopes, and a particularly poor one (with constant rolling-bar problem) in the case of the first. So these would never be up to the AV standards of the other movies in the set, though this in and of itself doesn't necessarily explain their exclusion—as tenia noted, In the Presence of a Clown is not a particularly obscure work and even had its international premiere at Cannes.

(A side note: I recall reading somewhere that Bergman shot his post-After the Rehearsal TV work exclusively on video because he was unhappy when that film was sold abroad for theatrical distribution and apparently felt that shooting on video would help prevent that in the future. I guess he mellowed somewhat over the years, given that In the Presence of a Clown had some theatrical play on the festival circuit and of course Saraband was widely distributed in theaters.)
The Last Gasp (1995) may also be HD.

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The Fanciful Norwegian
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#463 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:57 pm

It's possible, but given the novelty of HD at the time I would expect that to be mentioned somewhere in the credits, e.g. a reference to Sony HDVS or NHK Hi-Vision. It also would've probably been mentioned in contemporary articles and reviews, which isn't the case from what I can find.

ari101
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#464 Post by ari101 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:46 pm

The Fanciful Norwegian wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:57 pm
It's possible, but given the novelty of HD at the time I would expect that to be mentioned somewhere in the credits, e.g. a reference to Sony HDVS or NHK Hi-Vision. It also would've probably been mentioned in contemporary articles and reviews, which isn't the case from what I can find.
I'm sure you're a better judge of this than me, so apologies if I've got it wrong.

https://imgur.com/a/7PVSS5l

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miless
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#465 Post by miless » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:05 am

B&W video can have sharper images than color due to a lack of bayer filters bisecting individual pixels to interpolate colors (this is assuming he shot on a B&W video system)... also PAL video has a slightly higher resolution paired with an even 25fps vs the interlacing needed for NTSC video

edit: it's also highly likely that he shot it on Digi-Betacam (or Betacam SP), which would increase the visual quality

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Mr Sausage
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Saraband (Ingmar Bergman, 2003)

#466 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:15 pm

DISCUSSION ENDS MONDAY, January 21st.

Members have a two week period in which to discuss the film before it's moved to its dedicated thread in The Criterion Collection subforum. Please read the Rules and Procedures.

This thread is not spoiler free. This is a discussion thread; you should expect plot points of the individual films under discussion to be discussed openly. See: spoiler rules.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

I encourage members to submit questions, either those designed to elicit discussion and point out interesting things to keep an eye on, or just something you want answered. This will be extremely helpful in getting discussion started. Starting is always the hardest part, all the more so if it's unguided. Questions can be submitted to me via PM.

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quequeg
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#467 Post by quequeg » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:46 pm

Just got my notice that Barnes & Noble has resumed shipping this item.

TheRanchHand
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#468 Post by TheRanchHand » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:17 am

Been staring at this set for a month and still have not watched a single one (some perusing of a few titles) but am hoping to this weekend. I own about ten of them already but the others are either new or were seen in the cinema 30 years ago. The lack of titles makes sense as you can't just easily drop a title in. They pay big fees for the license, usually rescan them and then do what ever correcting they need and all of that is not a few dollars. So the fact this has this many films for $150 is a good day.

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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#469 Post by MichaelB » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:20 pm

TheRanchHand wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:17 am
The lack of titles makes sense as you can't just easily drop a title in. They pay big fees for the license, usually rescan them and then do what ever correcting they need and all of that is not a few dollars.
In this case, the bulk of the restoration work seems to have been done by Svensk Filmindustri - they even identify the sources (camera neg, interpos, dupe neg, whatever) before each film. There may have been a small amount of work done at Criterion's end, but not full-scale scanning/restoration.

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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#470 Post by Noiretirc » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:07 pm

Maybe I paid too much, but I just ordered this for $226USD from Amazondotcom, sold by Amazon. (I mention this because there is a lot of discussion about price/sales/deals in this thread.) There are 26 films in the set which I do not own, and that book looks great, so this seems very reasonable to me. I'll sell my duplicates.

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jsteffe
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#471 Post by jsteffe » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:55 pm

Zack567 wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:22 pm
Last, I took a quick look at some scenes in Cries and Whispers. Wow, is this transfer different from the original stand-alone Criterion blu-ray. As is well known by now, the first release was VERY warm, the red was really pumped up. The new transfer is much more natural, and if anything errs on the the side of being too cool. Which one is "correct"? I wish I knew. I saw Cries and Whispers several times theatrically in the late seventies/early eighties, and my memory is that the colors were rich and saturated. Having said that, the stand-alone blu-ray really does seem too red, there is also a slight green tint in some of the images that seems wrong, and a number of scenes seems lacking in contrast. The new transfer is more natural, has more contrast, but I think the skin tones are just to cool. The slightly bluish tinge makes sense for Agnes, who after all is dying of cancer, but doesn't seem right for the other characters. It also doesn't make sense in light of Bergman's comment that a starting point for the film was his feeling that red was the color of the soul.

I haven't seen the Criterion DVD, but judging by the DVD Beaver screencaps (always a slightly dangerous thing to do), it may well have had the best color grading - more saturated and warmer than the new Criterion transfer, but not as extreme as the first Criterion blu-ray release.
Thanks for this. I received the new printing of the box set last night (much sooner than expected!) and watched a chunk of CRIES AND WHISPERS right off the bat. I can't compare it with 35mm prints but I thought it looked very good on the whole. In a couple shots toward the beginning the white dresses really stand out as bluish, but when I looked at it more closely it appeared to be an artifact of the film's cinematography. What I am seeing, if I am not mistaken, is a case where they used tungsten balanced film, but the daylight from the windows was unfiltered and thus looked bluish on film. It was visible in some shots more than others. In any case, I would be curious to hear what other people think!

What a beautiful and rich thing this box set is...

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DarkImbecile
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Re: Saraband (Ingmar Bergman, 2003)

#472 Post by DarkImbecile » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:05 pm

I haven't seen Scenes from a Marriage yet, and I doubt I will before the end of this film's Film Club spotlight... do more knowledgeable viewers feel that's fatal to appreciating Saraband, or will I be fine backtracking later?

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swo17
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Re: Saraband (Ingmar Bergman, 2003)

#473 Post by swo17 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:54 pm

Would you recommend someone watch Before Midnight before Before Sunset?

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DarkImbecile
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Re: Saraband (Ingmar Bergman, 2003)

#474 Post by DarkImbecile » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:39 am

Hmm, I didn’t realize it was it that direct of a sequel; somehow I had come under the impression that the connection was less direct and more thematic. I’m pretty ignorant of Bergman post-Persona, but I’m excited to rectify that if I get to actually spend some time with this mega-set...

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knives
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Re: Saraband (Ingmar Bergman, 2003)

#475 Post by knives » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:08 pm

You're probably thinking of From the Life of Marianets which is a spin off.

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