Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

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TwoTecs
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2476 Post by TwoTecs » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:02 pm

Watched Kundun over the weekend. It is a good looking transfer but the level of detail and color saturation vary throughout. There are some shots that really standout and almost look like they were taken from a new master. Overall the master merely hints at the brilliance of the cinematography. The complexity and volume of color and the detail that is present in the best of film transfers is just not there. I would still recommend buying it just to own a copy of this film considering Disney's relationship with China and Iger's recent feud with Scorsese. Hopefully someday the film will get its due with a master that does justice to Deakins' work.

It was funny reading Rosenbaum's review of Kundun after watching it and finding him surprised that Scorsese made such a great film about the subject. He praises Scorsese for taking us inside Dalai Lama's life and conveying what he saw and heard and felt. That really has been Scorsese's mode since his first feature and the essence of his style. He chides Scorsese for making "commercial films" with stars while ignoring that those films are what allowed Scorsese the freedom to take on more esoteric subjects. Also made me sad to think that at one point Casino was considered a commercial film and now Scorsese can't get studios to fund something like The Irishman.

Tangentially related: Watched like half of the Goodfellas UHD right after this. That disc was unfairly maligned upon its release. Yes, the brightness and the blacks could be better but the way some people trashed the disc makes no sense. The increase in detail and the more faithful reproduction of color is just amazing. I have seen the remastered BD quite a few times and it is a great disc but the UHD just blows it right out of the water. The film has this amazing look that is reminiscent of some American modernist color photography. The improved contrast does wonders and the image just seems much more alive. Screencaps don't convey the full benefits of UHD in a general sense. The improved detail, color, and contrast accumulate with each frame and transform the experience of viewing a film.

I just hope non-mainstream films will get the benefits of UHD as the costs of producing these discs come down and more people get the ability to play them as UHD players and 4K TVs get cheaper.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2477 Post by FrauBlucher » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:30 pm

TwoTecs, did you get around to watching the supplements. It certainly looks like a stacked package.

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david hare
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2478 Post by david hare » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:24 pm

I find the Goodfellas UHD a hard watch technically. The transfer seems to go for maximum black level and very high use of HDR. You can see how fine grain is and detail should be, also color. But it is just too “dark”. I think there is still a problem transferring 35mm high contrast to 4k workflow at least for domestic release with possible overuse of HDR, whether HDR10 or DV. It looks better on my TV which can display over 1000 nits, than my projector which is below 400 nits.

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tenia
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2479 Post by tenia » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:33 pm

IIRC, the main technical guess indeed is that the issue with Goodfellas was how HDR was used.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2480 Post by EddieLarkin » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:29 pm

Not so much to do with the HDR grade itself, but the fact it was mastered with a very low average light level, probably the lowest one seen on a UHD so far, which is not a problem in and of itself, but is when TVs designed to expect HDR to be an eye singeing light show apply a tone map to the image. Essentially, a typical UHD is mastered in HDR with a light level far in excess of what TVs (and even more so projectors) are capable of producing, meaning the image has to be mapped down to what the TV is capable of. Do this to a disc like Goodfellas and you're turning an already dim image dimmer still. This is why the problem is excerbated further on a low nit display device like a projector, because the tone map is more aggressive.

On my OLED in a completely light controlled room it looks stupendous. Whilst there isn't really any HDR zing (which presumably and hopefully was avoided at the filmmakers' request), shadow detail is much improved over the new Blu-ray, which at the time of release was criticised in comparison to the old Blu-ray as having heavy black crush. The UHD takes the same 4K transfer and brings loads of extra information out of these dark areas. Colours too are more balanced compared to the more saturated Blu-ray, and there is a lushness to the grain field you just don't get in 1080p.

nitin
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2481 Post by nitin » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:07 pm

Yeah Goodfellas UHD looks really good on a setup that properly tone maps.

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diamonds
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2482 Post by diamonds » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:26 am

Would like to express disappointment with Kino's subtitle translation on Touchez pas au Grisbi and perhaps warn people away from the disc. Popped it in last night and knew almost immediately something was wrong; the dialog is often stripped of nuance and doesn't really flow. I did my best to transcribe a few examples from the opening scene in Madame Bouche's restaurant and compare them to the existing translation from Criterion.

Two of Josy's lines:
SpoilerShow
Kino: "Come along. You'll enjoy it. Isn't that so Riton? It's a first class show."
vs.
Criterion: "Come see us, Max. You won't be sorry. It was obvious during rehearsals. It's our best show yet."

--

Kino: "You must come, Max. Lola in the 2nd number will be a riot."
vs.
Criterion: "You gotta come, Max. Lola's a mermaid in the second number. It'll give the johns heart failure."
It's clear any stylization or nuance in the dialog is gone in Kino's, and you can tell while you're watching just by the length of time Jeanne Moreau speaks that she's saying more than what Kino provides.

This is the exchange between Madame Bouche and the group of interlopers that briefly enter the restaurant:
SpoilerShow
Kino:

Interlopers: Do we get any service? We want to eat.
Bouche: Sorry, no more room.
I: And those tables...
B: Reserved.
I: We'll have a drink while we are waiting.
B: Better go across the road. They do you well. Just over there, see? You'll be well looked after.

vs. Criterion:

I: Can we get some service here? We're here for dinner.
B: Sorry. All booked up.
I: What about those tables?
B: Reserved.
I: We can have drinks while we wait.
B: Try Victor's. It's an excellent restaurant. Just across the street.
I: Victor's it is.
B: Just tell them I sent you.
Criterion's flows much better. Kino's is awkwardly phrased and at the end barely coherent ("They do you well"). It also omits the restaurant's name, which again is frustrating as a viewer because you can clearly hear the name being spoken even if you don't understand French.

The closing exchange between the girls and M. Bouche:
SpoilerShow
Kino:

Bouche: I'll open the door for you.
Josy: A good meal, Madam Bouche.
B: Glad you liked it.
J: For once I've made you a compliment...

vs. Criterion:

Bouche: I have to let you out.
Josy: Swell dinner, Madame Bouche.
Lola: Just fine.
Bouche: I don't poison my customers.
Josy: You can't take a compliment.
Note Lola's line is left out of Kino's (not an uncommon problem here; Max's very first spoken line is left untranslated too). In the Criterion there's a greater sense of personality interplay (Bouche's retort is droll and sarcastic, Josy's response is playful and frustrated) whereas Kino's shifts the meaning of Bouche's words almost entirely, and Josy's response is again comparatively incoherent. I didn't watch the disc the whole way through, but I did skip around to note that the problem does recur (Ex: during the the famous late night biscuit conversation between Max and Riton, the line, "So I told her not to worry. I had what we needed." becomes "So I told her not to worry. I had the necessary.").

Rhythm, nuance, and minutiae are central to Grisbi's detailed evocation of a milieu; they're what make it a great film and Becker a great director. The work on the Kino disc is sloppy, and the film suffers for it.

nitin
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2483 Post by nitin » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:08 am

I wonder if they are the same subs as on the worldwide Studiocanal discs?

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Ovader
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2484 Post by Ovader » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:34 am

I have the Region B blu-ray and the Criterion subtitles for the opening scene are nearly similar to my UK edition.

Criterion: "Come see us, Max. You won't be sorry. It was obvious during rehearsals. It's our best show yet."
SC: "Come and see us, Max. You won't be sorry. It was obvious during rehearsals. It's our best show yet."

Criterion: "You gotta come, Max. Lola's a mermaid in the second number. It'll give the johns heart failure."
SC: "You gotta come, Max. Lola's a mermaid in the second number. It'll give the guys heart failure."

Criterion:
I: Can we get some service here? We're here for dinner.
B: Sorry. All booked up.
I: What about those tables?
B: Reserved.
I: We can have drinks while we wait.
B: Try Victor's. It's an excellent restaurant. Just across the street.
I: Victor's it is.
B: Just tell them I sent you.

SC:
I: Can we get some service here?
B: Ladies, gentlemen...
I: It's for dinner.
B: Sorry. All booked up.
I: What about those tables?
B: Reserved.
I: We can have drinks while we wait.
B: Try Victor's.
I: Victor's?
B: It's an excellent restaurant. Just across the street.
I: Victor's it is.
B: Just tell them I sent you.

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MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2485 Post by MichaelB » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:40 am

If the rightsholder has provided a subtitle track (as is pretty common), there’s no point reinventing the wheel, although I suspect Criterion is one of those labels that goes through them line by line to see if there’s scope for tiny improvements.

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domino harvey
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2486 Post by domino harvey » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:09 pm

I had to stop watching SC’s Blu-Ray of Une femme est une femme because the subtitler didn’t get the joke about ordering a coffee “green” and ruined it in their translation— as you can tell, I didn’t get very far, but I could already tell it was gonna be a waste of time

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hearthesilence
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2487 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:25 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:09 pm
I had to stop watching SC’s Blu-Ray of Une femme est une femme because the subtitler didn’t get the joke about ordering a coffee “green” and ruined it in their translation— as you can tell, I didn’t get very far, but I could already tell it was gonna be a waste of time
Unfortunately that's a fairly common mistake with this film. I don't think I've ever seen it right.

One mention from the Connecticut newspaper the Hartford Courant in 2003, reviewing a Rialto print that was screening at the time:
SpoilerShow
The new subtitles by Lenny Borger are très bon with one amusing exception. Early in the picture, Angela pauses at a cafe to order a coffee. A man steps up to the counter beside her and orders what the subtitles refer to as a "coffee green." "Vert" (pronounced "vare-t" with an almost imperceptibly soft consonant sound) is the French word for "green," but "verre" (pronounced "vare") means glass, and when the coffee is delivered in a glass, francophiles will have an extra but unintentional reason to grin.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2488 Post by MichaelB » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:58 pm

Looking at that comparison in more detail, it's clear that Criterion does what I also do for Indicator releases - taking a broadly solid but possibly overly literal translation and slightly tweaking it line by line to make it read better.

And for me, this is an essential part of the process, not least because jokes/puns can be missed - or things simply misheard. I remember being baffled by a reference to "Rossellini's film about the doctors" in the interview with Paolo & Vittorio Taviani in the subtitles supplied by Cohen, until the penny dropped that "i medici" and "i Medici" sound exactly the same and that they must have been referring to Rossellini's 1973 TV series The Age of the Medici - so that line was fixed for the Arrow edition.

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domino harvey
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2489 Post by domino harvey » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:09 pm

This happens a lot when you hire subtitlers that don’t know movie references. I just saw this earlier this year in the commercial subs for En liberte!, which translate a reference to Fantomas, the serial character, as “phantom,” which misses the point of the line

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MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2490 Post by MichaelB » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:31 pm

Yes, the translation was excellent, but the translator clearly wasn't a film person.

And you've just reminded me of another example, whereby a spoken "EuroDisney" was turned into "Disneyland" in the subtitles for La Haine, completely missing an important contextual point - if I remember rightly, although I haven't seen the film since it came out, EuroDisney was singled out for a reason (possibly as a crap French imitation of a superior American product).

Although sometimes interviewees themselves can pose a translation challenge. I myself translated the French-language Antonioni interviews on Indicator's The Passenger, but there were a couple of passages that completely stumped me - and when I consulted a native French speaker (Tenia of this parish, if I remember rightly), he said that that's because Antonioni was basically making words up by saying the Italian word in a vaguely French accent.

(Since I routinely do this myself in reverse when speaking Italian, on account of my French vocabulary being much bigger, I couldn't exactly complain!)

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Ovader
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2491 Post by Ovader » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:01 pm

February 4th
Mo' Better Blues (1990)
Jungle Fever (1991)
Crooklyn (1994)
Clockers (1995)
Summer of Sam (1999)
The Oscar (1966)
Anne Frank (2001 TV Movie) - DVD only

February 11th
Heartbeeps (1981)
The Sting II (1983)
Transylvania 6-5000 (1985)
Legal Eagles (1986)
Leave Yesterday Behind (1978 TV Movie) - DVD only

February 18th
The Criminal (1960) aka The Concrete Jungle
Accident (1967)
Perfect Friday (1971)
The Light at the Edge of the World (1971)
The Day of the Dolphin (1974)
Je t'aime moi non plus (1976) Kino Classics

February 25th
Quai des orfevres (1947)
The Third Lover (1962)
Line of Demarcation (1966)
The Deadly Trap (1967)
And Hope to Die (1972)
Max and the Junkmen (1971)

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domino harvey
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2492 Post by domino harvey » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:05 pm

The Oscar (1966)
I don’t remember this being announced, but it is a truly terrible movie and somehow worse than its reputation. I’ll give KL benefit of the doubt and it may have been a contractual obligation license packaged with something else. Looking forward to one of the KL Gang of Four rattling off Stephen Boyd’s IMDB page for thirty minutes, though

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2493 Post by CSM126 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:23 pm

The Oscar got a shatteringly loud snort out of me. God that’s just terrible. I can’t believe that whoever owns that thing would want it released, even under another label’s name.

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captveg
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2494 Post by captveg » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:46 pm

CSM126 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:23 pm
The Oscar got a shatteringly loud snort out of me. God that’s just terrible. I can’t believe that whoever owns that thing would want it released, even under another label’s name.
The Oscar is via Paramount licensing

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Big Ben
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2495 Post by Big Ben » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:47 pm

Yeah but now I want to see it to see how bad it is.

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Dylan
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2496 Post by Dylan » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:11 pm

Screenwriter and Harlan Ellison's friend Josh Olson posted on the Harlan Ellison Facebook Fan Club page that he recorded a commentary for The Oscar with Harlan Ellison's widow, Susan, Ellison's friend Patton Oswalt, and Ellison's biographer Nat Segaloff. Olson writes, "Not saying there’s gonna be a great audio commentary on the new Kino Lorber Oscar Blu Ray... but there might be."

I'll chime in and be the lone defender of this film, because I enjoy it as trash. Yes, it's ridiculous and Stephen Boyd's performance is truly bizarre, but I think the consistently snappy dialogue is wonderfully entertaining, it has a nice glossy look (cinematography by Joseph Ruttenberg, terrific Edith Head costumes), and it's always great to see Elke Sommer. I can understand how somebody could unabashedly hate it (Ellison himself hated it as he had a different and far grittier film in mind while adapting Richard Sale's novel) and I wouldn't say it's one of the better films of its kind, but I thought it was fun.
Last edited by Dylan on Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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brundlefly
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2497 Post by brundlefly » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:39 pm

'"Oh, yeah,' Sinatra said, 'well I've seen it, and it's a piece of crap.'"

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Dylan
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2498 Post by Dylan » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:41 pm

brundlefly wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:39 pm
'"Oh, yeah,' Sinatra said, 'well I've seen it, and it's a piece of crap.'"
Ah yes, the famous Harlan Ellison and Frank Sinatra fight. As Ellison recounted, though, it would've actually been impossible for Sinatra to have seen it when they had that conflict, unless Sinatra had somehow seen the dailies (which I suppose is possible).

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2499 Post by FrauBlucher » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:31 pm

The Insider posted about a "Noirember" sale starting later this month with the term "while supplies last" which led to this exchange with a forum member...
blurry.com wrote:Quote:What exactly is the "while supplies last" sale? Are a bunch of titles supposed to be going out of print soon?

If they sellout, we won't restock. If the rights expire, we won't renew. Whichever comes first.

Glowingwabbit
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#2500 Post by Glowingwabbit » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:43 pm

FrauBlucher wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:31 pm
The Insider posted about a "Noirember" sale starting later this month with the term "while supplies last" which led to this exchange with a forum member...
blurry.com wrote:Quote:What exactly is the "while supplies last" sale? Are a bunch of titles supposed to be going out of print soon?

If they sellout, we won't restock. If the rights expire, we won't renew. Whichever comes first.
It actually refers to a "Noirvember" sale and a "While supplies last" sale in November. Two different. promotions. Also a big sale at the beginning of December

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