Noah Baumbach
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)
You might do with going back in time. I haven't really liked any of the post Greenberg films I've seen, but I maintain that his normally released work from than and before is impeachable.
- furbicide
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:52 am
Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)
I've seen nearly everything, and feel a bit mixed about the early stuff – I did like Margot at the Wedding but didn't find it particularly memorable, and Kicking and Screaming felt fine as a first film but nowhere near on par with his best stuff (I think the only two Baumbach features I haven't seen so far are Highball and Mr Jealousy, which are apparently pretty minor/forgettable works anyway). After Frances Ha I felt like he'd hit his peak and could now do no wrong, but in hindsight it seems more and more like an outlier.
- therewillbeblus
- Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)
Mr. Jealousy feels more like the outlier in his filmography if anything is (until now). The neuroses is still there, but it’s a pretty go-for-broke straight comedy with less ennui and more twisted situational gags as characters dig themselves into absurd circumstances due to their own unapologetically selfish drives. One of his more underrated works.
I’m with knives that everything through Greenberg is superior overall to the last decade (can we call it his pre-Gerwig phase, even though she’s in that film? After all he did write it with his former wife, and began writing with Greta following...) but I still enjoy the micro-focused comedies a lot, and thought The Meyerowitz Stories was a return to form of those earlier more complicated and expansive mezzo-systemic works. Marriage Story may be his most extreme outlier though, and I suspect his fans to come down on all sides of it as a result.
I’m with knives that everything through Greenberg is superior overall to the last decade (can we call it his pre-Gerwig phase, even though she’s in that film? After all he did write it with his former wife, and began writing with Greta following...) but I still enjoy the micro-focused comedies a lot, and thought The Meyerowitz Stories was a return to form of those earlier more complicated and expansive mezzo-systemic works. Marriage Story may be his most extreme outlier though, and I suspect his fans to come down on all sides of it as a result.
- ianthemovie
- Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:51 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)
I'm fascinated that among Baumbach's fans (among which I'd count myself) there is so much division and disagreement about what constitutes his best films. I'd argue that this, Frances Ha, and Squid and the Whale are his best movies because the tone and pacing of them seems the most even, followed by While We're Young/Mistress America/Meyerowitz, with Greenberg, Margot, and Kicking and Screaming at the bottom. (Haven't seen Highball or Mr. Jealousy.) Even if you run hot and cold on him, love some of his films and dislike others, etc. I would say that Marriage Story is still essential viewing.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)
You know we’re gonna do this now
Kicking and Screaming
Margot at the Wedding
While We’re Young
Greenberg
Mr Jealousy
the Meyerowitz Stories
the Squid and the Whale
Mistress America
Conrad and Butler Take a Vacation
Frances Ha
Highball
Haven’t seen: De Palma, Marriage Story
Kicking and Screaming
Margot at the Wedding
While We’re Young
Greenberg
Mr Jealousy
the Meyerowitz Stories
the Squid and the Whale
Mistress America
Conrad and Butler Take a Vacation
Frances Ha
Highball
Haven’t seen: De Palma, Marriage Story
- therewillbeblus
- Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)
Margot at the Wedding
Greenberg
The Meyerowitz Stories
Mr Jealousy
While We’re Young
The Squid and the Whale
Kicking and Screaming
Frances Ha
Marriage Story
White Noise
Mistress America
Conrad and Butler Take a Vacation
Highball
Updated 1/8/23
Greenberg
The Meyerowitz Stories
Mr Jealousy
While We’re Young
The Squid and the Whale
Kicking and Screaming
Frances Ha
Marriage Story
White Noise
Mistress America
Conrad and Butler Take a Vacation
Highball
Updated 1/8/23
Last edited by therewillbeblus on Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- The Narrator Returns
- Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:35 pm
Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)
With only Marriage Story left...
Mistress America
Frances Ha
Margot at the Wedding
The Squid and the Whale
The Meyerowitz Stories
Greenberg
Kicking and Screaming
De Palma
Mr. Jealousy
Highball
While We're Young (Young is objectively a better movie than Highball but I have to account for how much Highball makes me laugh)
Conrad and Butler Take a Vacation
Mistress America
Frances Ha
Margot at the Wedding
The Squid and the Whale
The Meyerowitz Stories
Greenberg
Kicking and Screaming
De Palma
Mr. Jealousy
Highball
While We're Young (Young is objectively a better movie than Highball but I have to account for how much Highball makes me laugh)
Conrad and Butler Take a Vacation
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- Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:49 am
Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)
Out of the ones I have seen:
Frances Ha
The Squid and the Whale
Mistress America
Marriage Story
Margot at the Wedding
Greenberg
While We’re Young
Frances Ha
The Squid and the Whale
Mistress America
Marriage Story
Margot at the Wedding
Greenberg
While We’re Young
- mfunk9786
- Under Chris' Protection
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)
All I know is that While We're Young is the worst one and that it's time for DarkImbecile to make a Baumbach thread
- Foam
- Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:47 am
Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)
Frances Ha
Mistress America
The Meyerowitz Stories
Greenberg
Margot at the Wedding
Kicking and Screaming
The Squid and the Whale
De Palma
While We're Young
Mistress America
The Meyerowitz Stories
Greenberg
Margot at the Wedding
Kicking and Screaming
The Squid and the Whale
De Palma
While We're Young
- DarkImbecile
- Ask me about my visible cat breasts
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm
- Location: Albuquerque, NM
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: Noah Baumbach
From what I've seen (and FWIW I've hated none of them):
The Squid and the Whale
Kicking and Screaming
Marriage Story
The Meyerowitz Stories
Frances Ha
Margot at the Wedding
Greenberg
Mistress America
[updated to include Marriage Story]
The Squid and the Whale
Kicking and Screaming
Marriage Story
The Meyerowitz Stories
Frances Ha
Margot at the Wedding
Greenberg
Mistress America
[updated to include Marriage Story]
Last edited by hearthesilence on Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: Noah Baumbach
Blus has mine, though I haven't seen the Netflix movies, though I'd put Frances Ha dead last. The only thing connected to him I find no merit in.
- therewillbeblus
- Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Noah Baumbach
In a self-imposed quest to be a completist I finally sought out Highball and while it’s not very good, with some brutal acting (who the hell gave Christopher Reed a job) and awkward attempts at gags, there are enough small ideas and talented comedians to let more than a few inevitably land. My favorite line came early: “I just want to get my face changed,” delivered nonchalantly as if it’s a new haircut, and the way Bogdanovich struggles to de-suave himself in resorting to impressions as his only skill at social engagement was amusing, especially since he avoids what could only be a depressing sight to fit in with these juvenile imbeciles. Unfortunately far more lines fail, with something like, “he’s as gay as a heart attack” going for broke and deflating with shame. Carlos Jacott gets in some good moments at the end just by effortlessly flexing his own range, and as someone who thinks Chris Eigeman is perhaps the strongest comedic actor of the Gen X peak, there’s a filmography I’m more committed to completing and yet approaching with extreme trepidation..
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- Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:06 am
Re: Noah Baumbach
I'm pretty enamored of Highball and wish it had been really finished. It's a mess, but there are so many good ideas it's far more entertaining to me than 95% of polished features.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Noah Baumbach
One thing I do remember about the otherwise negligible Eigeman deep cut the Treatment is the wonderful moment wherein a character sincerely does a stupid romantic comedy plot thing and instead of following it through they just stop, apologize, and tell the truththerewillbeblus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:59 pm[...] as someone who thinks Chris Eigeman is perhaps the strongest comedic actor of the Gen X peak, there’s a filmography I’m more committed to completing and yet approaching with extreme trepidation..
Much more enjoyable is his directorial debut, Turn the River, wherein Terry Kinney from Oz delivers one of the best/most quotable lines ever about how much pool sucks
- L.A.
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 7:33 am
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
Re: Noah Baumbach
Mr. Jealousy (1997) coming in July in the MVD Marquee Collection series.
Special Features and Technical Specs:
• High Definition (1080p) presentation of the main feature in 1.78:1 aspect ratio
• "Revisiting Mr. Jealousy" (HD, 40:48) Brand new feature including new interviews with cast members Brian Kerwin, Peter Bogdanovich, producer Joel Castelberg along with vintage interviews with writer and director Noah Baumbach.
• Original Theatrical Trailer (SD, 2:30)
• Optional English Subtitles for the main feature
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: Noah Baumbach
Um....• The color version of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
- therewillbeblus
- Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Noah Baumbach
Excellent news, one of Baumbach’s best!L.A. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:58 amMr. Jealousy (1997) coming in July in the MVD Marquee Collection series.
- The Narrator Returns
- Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:35 pm
Re: Noah Baumbach
A Jonathan Franzen-centered podcast somehow got ahold of Baumbach's never-finished The Corrections pilot and reviewed it in this episode. It even comes with a detailed synopsis in case you want to imagine it yourself. It doesn't sound very good but I still want to see it just as badly as I did before.
- The Narrator Returns
- Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:35 pm
Re: Noah Baumbach
MVD are continuing their good work and releasing Highball this June.
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: Noah Baumbach
Does anyone want to buy my DVD that was once touched by domino?
- therewillbeblus
- Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Noah Baumbach
Just did a full revisit of Baumbach's filmography (minus Highball) and adjusted my rankings accordingly, which are still more or less the same, though While We're Young considerably ascended and I came away appreciating the bottom films I already liked even more. I'd never done a comprehensive Baumbach review in such a concentrated period of time, and it was wonderful to see the throughlines across films one wouldn't necessarily expect or notice with time elapsed. One might remember how the story in Margot at the Wedding about the molested sister comes through a different reveal in Meyerowitz Stories, but I found myself most interested in the relationship between the poor boundaries in Baumbach's upbringing and his own reactivity to the same characteristics he exhibits in adulthood, creating an authentic complex of simultaneous resentment and appreciation for what was passed onto him and a demonstration of how we're often offended by the qualities we ourselves possess and transmit.
Kidman, Linney, Daniels, and Gould all struggle with oversharing with their children. Linney as the most autobiographical mother figure explicitly discusses the details of her sexual affairs with nonchalance in The Squid and the Whale. Having grown up in a household not nearly that extreme but definitely more similar than most people I've dated, I can relate to the uncomfortable contrast when engaging in conversations with romantic partners who grew up with more boundaries around discussing past relationships, as well as the challenge in learning boundaries as an adult that were never conditioned in childhood. So we find Baumbach's surrogate in Stolz have difficulty managing his jealousy in response to Annabella Sciorra's comfortable discloser in Mr Jealousy, or Stiller reacting to Gerwig's oversharing of a silly, barely-sexual story in Greenberg with theatrically caustic rejection. These impulses say more about the men's insecurities (and likely self-frustrations) of where they 'are' developmentally, and narcissistic defenses coating the shame in their inability to receive the kind of provocative content they themselves contain as well. But is Baumbach actually just 'the men' here, or does he also identify with the female characters' elastic boundaries? Margot's son does overshare his masturbation, after all, and perhaps the tendency for male characters to blur appropriate boundaries in terms of vitriolic intellectualizations or narcissistic defenses is more in line with the style of the father figures, but Gould and Daniels overshare about sex as well.
I like how there's no lucid connection to who passed what on in terms of how they've manifested as conditioned characteristics or how they've transformed into deep-rooted triggers for emotional acuity; no false categorization of influences separately into neat little boxes, since that's not how it works. People are complicated, and we all go through a lot to get to the messy beings we are as adults. The evolution of his awareness of these connections across his filmography is profound, with Meyerowitz Stories really serving as the "last" classical Baumbach family drama in the same way Darjeeling Limited could be for Wes Anderson's unresolved angst before he moved onto other interests in a more self-actualized state. However, that's not Anderson's best film, and neither is Meyerowitz Stories Baumbach's; so we return to the early/middle work. The vulnerability Anderson reached in Rushmore and Royal Tenenbaums is matched in Margot and Greenberg. For my money, the scene between Stiller and JJL where he makes "amends" at lunch, desperately hoping via assumption that he was as important in her life narrative and she is in his (read: at this current moment in time*), is the peak of Baumbach's courageous confessions and psychosocial wit. I can identify with that mentality, in past versions of myself and in future alternate versions without a program in therapy and recovery- which is far from a unique experience, but Baumbach goes there, and not enough artists embrace the messy nature of this truth when examining human behavior in the social environment. I couldn't get Desplechin out of my head during a few of these returns.
As a random aside, after a lot of eclectic cinematic introductions to a person who never even got to watch Disney movies as a kid, my partner confidently declared Baumbach to be her favorite artist I've introduced her to so far. This is hardly a novel thought, but it's nice to know that any notion that you need to have a certain acclimation to cinema to comprehend what Baumbach's doing isn't necessary. But I do think one needs to be a person willing to look inside and be relatively honest about their flaws and vulnerable history in order to appreciate the extent of it.
Kidman, Linney, Daniels, and Gould all struggle with oversharing with their children. Linney as the most autobiographical mother figure explicitly discusses the details of her sexual affairs with nonchalance in The Squid and the Whale. Having grown up in a household not nearly that extreme but definitely more similar than most people I've dated, I can relate to the uncomfortable contrast when engaging in conversations with romantic partners who grew up with more boundaries around discussing past relationships, as well as the challenge in learning boundaries as an adult that were never conditioned in childhood. So we find Baumbach's surrogate in Stolz have difficulty managing his jealousy in response to Annabella Sciorra's comfortable discloser in Mr Jealousy, or Stiller reacting to Gerwig's oversharing of a silly, barely-sexual story in Greenberg with theatrically caustic rejection. These impulses say more about the men's insecurities (and likely self-frustrations) of where they 'are' developmentally, and narcissistic defenses coating the shame in their inability to receive the kind of provocative content they themselves contain as well. But is Baumbach actually just 'the men' here, or does he also identify with the female characters' elastic boundaries? Margot's son does overshare his masturbation, after all, and perhaps the tendency for male characters to blur appropriate boundaries in terms of vitriolic intellectualizations or narcissistic defenses is more in line with the style of the father figures, but Gould and Daniels overshare about sex as well.
I like how there's no lucid connection to who passed what on in terms of how they've manifested as conditioned characteristics or how they've transformed into deep-rooted triggers for emotional acuity; no false categorization of influences separately into neat little boxes, since that's not how it works. People are complicated, and we all go through a lot to get to the messy beings we are as adults. The evolution of his awareness of these connections across his filmography is profound, with Meyerowitz Stories really serving as the "last" classical Baumbach family drama in the same way Darjeeling Limited could be for Wes Anderson's unresolved angst before he moved onto other interests in a more self-actualized state. However, that's not Anderson's best film, and neither is Meyerowitz Stories Baumbach's; so we return to the early/middle work. The vulnerability Anderson reached in Rushmore and Royal Tenenbaums is matched in Margot and Greenberg. For my money, the scene between Stiller and JJL where he makes "amends" at lunch, desperately hoping via assumption that he was as important in her life narrative and she is in his (read: at this current moment in time*), is the peak of Baumbach's courageous confessions and psychosocial wit. I can identify with that mentality, in past versions of myself and in future alternate versions without a program in therapy and recovery- which is far from a unique experience, but Baumbach goes there, and not enough artists embrace the messy nature of this truth when examining human behavior in the social environment. I couldn't get Desplechin out of my head during a few of these returns.
As a random aside, after a lot of eclectic cinematic introductions to a person who never even got to watch Disney movies as a kid, my partner confidently declared Baumbach to be her favorite artist I've introduced her to so far. This is hardly a novel thought, but it's nice to know that any notion that you need to have a certain acclimation to cinema to comprehend what Baumbach's doing isn't necessary. But I do think one needs to be a person willing to look inside and be relatively honest about their flaws and vulnerable history in order to appreciate the extent of it.
-
- Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:44 pm
Re: Noah Baumbach
Just randomly thinking about how this excerpt from Christian Lorentzen's incisive review of Jonathan Safran Foer's autobiographical divorce novel mirrors what I couldn't get past in Baumbach's Marriage Story, a film I wished had taken a few more chances:
Imagine a version of The Squid and the Whale written and directed so that no one who watched it could ever think less of Baumbach's real-life father (let alone be disgusted by him) and I think you get to the problem with Marriage Story.
It's one thing to write/direct a film about divorce where neither party is at fault, but it's another to write one in which domestic conflicts between a couple have been so Nerf'd up and devoid of any "unpleasant nastiness" that it rings false.Christian Lorentzen wrote:And because Foer is among the generation of white, male, American novelists with a post-feminist education, he’s disinclined to allow Jacob — whom he’s deliberately fashioned as an alter ego — to appear misogynistic. He can write a scene in which Julia masturbates with a fancy doorknob (a coy allusion to the many doorknobs in Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close? Let’s hope not) but he can’t let Jacob call her a “bitch” — a word used relentlessly (and ironically) by Alex in Everything Is Illuminated to refer to his female dog Sammy Davis Junior Junior, and one which a protagonist of a Roth or Bellow novel would use without a second thought. Instead, when Jacob loses his temper after Julia has confronted him about his sexts, he screams, “You are my enemy!
Imagine a version of The Squid and the Whale written and directed so that no one who watched it could ever think less of Baumbach's real-life father (let alone be disgusted by him) and I think you get to the problem with Marriage Story.
- therewillbeblus
- Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Noah Baumbach
I think there's a lot of interesting discussion on the perceived faults/strengths of Marriage Story in its dedicated thread, if you want to comb through it. I addressed my issues and admirations there, which are more or less the same on a revisit, but personally I find it risky and vulnerable how Baumbach positions the story from his own perspective -as is the only respectful way to do it- and gradually shifts to disclosing his own narcissistic barriers to accessing his wife's perspective as the film goes on. It's not a perfect movie, but that progression is taking a lot of chances in how Baumbach exposes himself through subtle tactics of narrative sobriety, and it's probably the aspect of the film most worthy of praise. And while I think there's some inherently unfortunate shadowing of the 'divorce process' that overwhelms a purer path of empathy for its characters, that's the reality of the characters in the film. The process is so destabilizing that only at the end when he reads the letter is Driver at a place where he can stop to truly meditate on anything outside of the acuity of the situation. The film is almost like Baumbach portraying the reality of the experience of divorce for him as a Safdie bros adrenaline rush, only set to his own rhythm, and I think if we look at it within that subjectivity, it's the only authentic way he could've made the film he wanted to make. Also, I think plenty of people did leave Squid and the Whale with the dad-judgment sticking out as a sore thumb usurping a lot of the rest of the film, and that's not necessarily "wrong" either! That's what I got out of the film the first time, and I get something new every time (same with all of Baumbach's work, honestly) depending on the stage of life I'm in when I watch it, and maybe the same will be true of Marriage Story