1058 The Irishman

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hearthesilence
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#501 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:39 pm

EddieLarkin wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:49 am
That looks horribly compressed, especially in near black areas (see caps 4, 7 and 8). I seriously wonder if the bit starved Netflix stream may be better than this.

Criterion seem to getting worse not better at compression, if this and the Fellini box is anything to go by.
It does look pretty bad, probably worse in motion given how much macroblocking there appears to be.

Which Fellinis looked bad?

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tenia
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#502 Post by tenia » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:47 pm

I have a 1080p file from the Netflix "version" of The Irishman whose AVB is 7 Mbps. It's predictably problematic everywhere it can be, but this 4th capture from Beaver is a nightmare and while the 1080p Netflix equivalent also shows blockiness, its blockiness is more subtle and doesn't show huge squares of pixels.

In any case, I'm not sure if they're getting worse but they sure aren't getting better.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#503 Post by FrauBlucher » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:45 am


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tenia
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#504 Post by tenia » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:12 am

there are no encoding anomalies to report in our review
But clearly, the issues seen on Beaver caps are on the disc, since pretty much every single blu-ray.com capture is showing awful compression.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#505 Post by Nasir007 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm

I agree. You HAVE TO compare to the source. Blu Ray is not a thing by itself, it represents the film as it was premiered. So for most movies, you have commentary about the theatrical and how it looked and whether it is accurately produced here. Irishman was by and large a streaming release. It absolutely merits comparison to the streaming release to see how it compares and commentary with regards to it being a worthwhile purchase when most people have netflix.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#506 Post by bluesforyou » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:09 pm

Here you go for a source comparison. My own screenshot of the 4K WEBRip. It has non of Criterion's blotchiness (and expectedly, more detail). On a proper UHD, the film would look even better. But right now the WEBRip is the definitive version of the film.

Once I get a hold of the disc, I will post a screenshot taken the same exact way and that would give a better idea of the real differences.

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tenia
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#507 Post by tenia » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:09 am

Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
Blu Ray is not a thing by itself, it represents the film as it was premiered.
Actually, it is, especially in regards to blockiness. Blockiness coming from the home video encode has a specific aspect that can be spotted on a BD (or even a UHD actually) and its related issues attributed to the correct reason (a sub-optimal encode). If the issue is not coming from the home video encode itself, it would mean it's baked in the professionnal intermediate result, ie for The Irishman its 4K DI. I have seen probably 1000+ BDs, and have only encountered ONCE a movie whose DI was showing blockiness to begin with (explaining why the subsequent BDs were also showing blockiness : An Elephant Sitting Still).

Remember also that Criterion didn't use a Netflix stream as a source and then adapt it to 1080p : they worked with an upstream less compressed file, most likely a 4K ProRes (I'd assume already converted SDR but sourced from the 4K DV DI), weighing several hundreds Gbs.
Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
You HAVE TO compare to the source.
How would you do that ? The Irishman 4K-finished source "weighs" several Terabytes and isn't available to the public. Even the largest least-compressed Netflix stream has compressed that by 99%. All we're achieving by comparing the largest 4K Netflix stream with the Criterion BD is comparing a 99% 4K compression with a different 99% 1080p compression. It's enough to see if there are exact common issues - which would mean there might be baked-in issues - but we're certainly not comparing to "the" source.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#508 Post by MichaelB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:48 am

I saw The Irishman in a cinema, and I think I’d have noticed if it was merely a projected Blu-ray - compression that’s invisible at home can often be glaringly apparent when blown up to fill an entire auditorium.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#509 Post by Nasir007 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:18 am

tenia wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:09 am
Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
Blu Ray is not a thing by itself, it represents the film as it was premiered.
Actually, it is, especially in regards to blockiness. Blockiness coming from the home video encode has a specific aspect that can be spotted on a BD (or even a UHD actually) and its related issues attributed to the correct reason (a sub-optimal encode). If the issue is not coming from the home video encode itself, it would mean it's baked in the professionnal intermediate result, ie for The Irishman its 4K DI. I have seen probably 1000+ BDs, and have only encountered ONCE a movie whose DI was showing blockiness to begin with (explaining why the subsequent BDs were also showing blockiness : An Elephant Sitting Still).

Remember also that Criterion didn't use a Netflix stream as a source and then adapt it to 1080p : they worked with an upstream less compressed file, most likely a 4K ProRes (I'd assume already converted SDR but sourced from the 4K DV DI), weighing several hundreds Gbs.
Nasir007 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:50 pm
You HAVE TO compare to the source.
How would you do that ? The Irishman 4K-finished source "weighs" several Terabytes and isn't available to the public. Even the largest least-compressed Netflix stream has compressed that by 99%. All we're achieving by comparing the largest 4K Netflix stream with the Criterion BD is comparing a 99% 4K compression with a different 99% 1080p compression. It's enough to see if there are exact common issues - which would mean there might be baked-in issues - but we're certainly not comparing to "the" source.
I perhaps phrased what I was saying extremely poorly. I meant to say - were I a reviewer, I would compare video presentation to the prevailing format of mass public impression. Say I were reviewing a largely theatrical film, I would compare it to that. If I were reviewing a largely streaming film, I would compare it to that. So I was just supporting the notion that a direct comparison to the nextflix stream is vital as it exists and is readily available out there and it is the way most people would see the film. And beyond extras, streaming-debuted films on disc can place a burden on a potential buyer - if the buyer is only getting the disc for the video presentation and already has a streaming subscription. So whether the presentation on a disc is worthwhile compared to the stream is of interest.

All that is to say, if I were the reviewer, I would have compared it to the streaming copy.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#510 Post by tenia » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:29 am

Movies like The Irishman are actually exceptions allowing to do "easy" A/B comparisons with the other prevailing mass format. There is almost no way to do a real accurate comparison of the BD with its theatrical equivalent (except if accessing the DCP file), so it's all only what you see on BD versus your memories of what you saw theatrically... providing you see it in theaters to begin with (in my personal case, I have never seen once before the utmost majority of the movies whose BDs I'm reviewing, especially since most of them are older than I am), and that it was a technically relevant theater.

And then again, there are many "markers" on a BD release that allow to spot whether the basis are properly covered or if there are specific issues, without having to try and do a comparison with something else.

So to go back on the original matter here, which is the BD compression, the chances the blockiness of the Criterion BD isn't solely coming from the BD encode are pretty much 0. Sure, it's always best to have the matter fully investigated, but really, just like the recent discussion about whether the Universal master supplied to Eureka for Five Graves to Cairo is 4K somewhere or not, the simplest answer is 99.99999% to be the right one. And in the case of The Irishman, it's just the typical crap compression from Pixelogic again.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#511 Post by TheKieslowskiHaze » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:08 am

I had a great time rewatching this one last night, the first time watching it on blu-ray. Because I knew what to expect, I was less distracted by the admittedly not-great de-aging effects and thus appreciated the performances more. I found the overall experience quite devastating.

One thing I noticed that I missed the first time around:
SpoilerShow
The movie, for awhile, has a Dunkirk-like structure, with two alternating timelines (one decades-spanning, the other condensed to a few days) heading toward the same moment (Hoffa's killing).

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Sternhalma Weinstein
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#512 Post by Sternhalma Weinstein » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:56 pm

Pardon my fish if this has been discussed earlier, but I've a question that has bothered me every one of the half-dozen times I've watched this great film:
SpoilerShow
After Frank pops Jimmy (sorry, nerds -- SPOILER) and exits the house, I presume he returns to the car where Jimmy's son Chuckie awaits. What in hell is the logics here? Is Chuckie in on it? Is nothing said of Jimmy's absence? The only thing I can figure is they were gonna leave Jimmy at the meeting and come back for him; but that doesn't make sense either as Jimmy wanted Frank at the meeting too, and I can only assume Chuckie and Mr. Coke Bottles back in the car knew this too. Is Chuckie so dim that he wouldn't have the sense to ask where his old man is?

I know this scene (like much of the film) is conjecture, so it doesn't have to make perfect sense, but I cant figure it.

What am I missing?

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Never Cursed
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#513 Post by Never Cursed » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:01 pm

SpoilerShow
Sally Bugs (your Mr. Coke Bottles) is a made man, so he is presumably in on what is happening. My take on Chuckie was that he was trying to impress the mobsters in his own awkward and clumsy way (very much in line with the failson he is) and thus he would probably have not asked too much about what he knew was mob business even after Frank exited the house.

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domino harvey
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#514 Post by domino harvey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:10 pm

Sternhalma Weinstein wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:56 pm
(sorry, nerds -- SPOILER)
Do not intentionally post a spoiler again

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Sternhalma Weinstein
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#515 Post by Sternhalma Weinstein » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:12 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:10 pm
Sternhalma Weinstein wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:56 pm
(sorry, nerds -- SPOILER)
Do not intentionally post a spoiler again
Are you actually serious? A two-year-old movie about a 75-year-old historical fact and we have to act like Blu-ray.com posters who celebrate their own half-birthdays and keep track of the number of "sleeps" left until the next episode of their favorite comic book movie?

How dispiriting. Over the last 25 years I've read every scrap of content by Kael, Agee, Farber, Rosenbaum (but not Guildenstern), Hoberman, Sarris, Macdonald, et al, and I don't recall any of them stooping to the manchild depths of intellectual abstinence popularized by the likes of Harry Knowles. Didn't realize this was that sort of place.

But, I'll abide. Wouldn't want anyone to enjoy Citizen Kane any less because of its absolutely least interesting aspect.

PS Sorry I mentioned the dead fish

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domino harvey
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#516 Post by domino harvey » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:16 pm

K

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#517 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:51 pm

We don't need two twotecs in this thread

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bearcuborg
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#518 Post by bearcuborg » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:56 pm

Sternhalma, if memory serves Frank says you could say Chuckie was in on it, but stupidly... I guess that’s part of the reason for the fish story?

But yeah, I’m not sure what the logic is either, other than he’s supposed to be dim? At least he knew enough to charge a guy who has a gun, when he has a knife you back away of course.

If I’m not mistaken the real life Chuckie is the only person depicted in the movie who’s still alive. He or a relative contributed to a newspaper regarding his depiction in the movie. He wasn’t pleased.

As for your spoiler, I think it’s the way you presented it.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#519 Post by swo17 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:49 pm


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Drucker
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Re: The Irishman (Martin Scorsese, 2019)

#520 Post by Drucker » Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:22 pm

DarkImbecile wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:23 pm
Anyway, this is a film that is so dependent on its dialogue with Scorsese's own work and American history that I can't imagine coming to it with insufficient knowledge of either and having a positive reaction to it. Of all the mournful notes in the movie, perhaps the most unexpectedly emotional for me was Scorsese's treatment of the erosion of history and meaning over time, on both a global and personal level. He portrays the momentous, world-changing events that dominated these characters' lifetimes and much of his own work as the ephemeral, half-understood abstractions they are to the vast majority of people alive today; the murder of a president and a near miss with nuclear holocaust are roughly as meaningful to the young adults around Sheeran at the end of the film as the various now-obscure murders and disappearances that are more foregrounded in the narrative. It's not just the choices and actions that made up Sheeran's own immoral, wasted life that have lost any color and meaning they might have once had, but nearly all the once-shared experiences, values, fears, and concerns that are rapidly disappearing from living memory.

To the point that Scorsese's presentation of the gangsters in this film denies them even the vitality and mythology that comes with every other film in the genre's depiction of 'the glory days', I loved that he introduces nearly every side character with a description of their ultimate murder or life-ending prison sentence, undercutting them before they can even attempt to assert any larger significance or value beyond ending up bleeding out in a driveway or blown to pieces in front of a Philly rowhome.
Having revisited the film last night, and this thread today, this comment really resonates with what I think is so successful about the film. I'd been meaning to revisit this film for some time, as there have been moments since initially seeing it in theaters where I have been reminded of moments from it...but I finally got around to it last night.

Rather than being bored by the fact that Scorsese already has a film similar to this in Goodfellas, which covers some of the same territory, I found that familiarity with that film made this one so much more enjoyable. Scorsese is taking a similar world and telling it from a different perspective. Not just that of a "Good fella" vs. an enforcer, however, but also with the perspective of time, age, and distance. There is a beautiful minimalism to the film, in the character such as Salerno, having such a gigantic influence over the plot of the film despite being in 2-3 scenes at most. Sheeran never gets close to any of the characters except Russel, and the distance he retains with everyone over the course of the film is incredibly effective. Whereas Henry Hill can riff off the names and mistresses of everyone in his crew, never gets more than one or two conversation with any critical figure in the mob. These mob relationships are stripped of all of their humanity and reduced to the bare minimum, and Scorsese visiting that world again with this different perspective is very effective.

The other thing that really stuck out to me, and I concede this is probably mostly my own bias showing, is the way Scorsese romanticizes the mob in contrast to big business. In one of the final episodes of the Sopranos, there is a plot where the mobsters are trying to force a chain coffee store to start paying them for protection, and the manager insists he can't even access the safe money. Big business has neutered a way for mobsters to collect their money. Similarly, the last time I saw Casino, that was my read as De Niro eulogizes Las Vegas under mob rule at the end of the film. Sure, the things the mobsters are doing is awful, but isn't it a bit more romantic with them in charge than faceless corporations? I have a friend that thinks this is intentionally ironic on Scorsese's part, and he doesn't mean to valorize the mob lifestyle, but I'm personally not so sure it can't be both.

There's a similar tone that is consistent in The Irishman. Hoffa screams that "big business and the government are out to get these unions." As long as the mob can benefit from union power, unions seem pretty safe. And while it's certainly just statement of facts, note how many of these gangsters died in 1979-1981, the years of Ronald Regan (and therefore, the current state of big business') ascent. Throughout the film, Hoffa and the mob are able to use each other effectively. But the death of one ultimately signals the death of the other. The glory days of mob rule went hand in hand with the dominance of the Teamsters' union. From a contemporary perspective, the mob feels less present than it used to, and so are unions which are there to confer benefits and power to the working people against faceless corporations. And the rise of the mega-corporation has occurred during the downfall of both of these.

I know this isn't the primary plot of the film. Scorsese is quite explicit that this film is about the passage of time and how one evaluates their own life while able to look back on it with full hindsight. But between The King Of Comedy, Wolf of Wall Street and The Irishman, we have some very beautiful critiques of the way our current society handles celebrity, fame, money, and big business. The people in his films are very effective representations of those critiques, and that's what's lingered in me the most since revisiting the film last night.
Last edited by Drucker on Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#521 Post by FrauBlucher » Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:32 pm

Drucker, thanks for posting. I’ve been contemplating revisiting this myself. When I first saw it I was nonplussed and felt it was overly long. But every now and then I would think about the film. Besides Scorsese deserves additional chances in changing initial reactions. Scorsese does indeed romanticizes the mobster and that life. I do think Coppola deserves the credit for romanticization of this genre with The Godfather. Scorsese’s first mob movie, Mean Streets, does not have that feel to it. Much more gritty and down and dirty.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#522 Post by ford » Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:38 pm

FrauBlucher wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:32 pm
Drucker, thanks for posting. I’ve been contemplating revisiting this myself. When I first saw it I was nonplussed and felt it was overly long. But every now and then I would think about the film. Besides Scorsese deserves additional chances in changing initial reactions. Scorsese does indeed romanticizes the mobster and that life. I do think Coppola deserves the credit for romanticization of this genre with The Godfather. Scorsese’s first mob movie, Mean Streets, does not have that feel to it. Much more gritty and down and dirty.
I dunno, if anything, I thought it romanticized Hoffa (a complex figure for whom I have much sympathy as he was trying to accomplish trade union advancement in hostile-as-hell-USA). But considering the Hollywood treatment usually reserved for "mid-century, fat dumb white guy union politics," it was quite welcome.

All the scenes of ugly, wrinkly and extremely violent mobsters doing grotesque shit thwarted any kind of romanticization, imho. Personally, I think it's a masterpiece. Which would give him three in the 21st century alone.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#523 Post by hearthesilence » Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:55 pm

Scorsese has openly talked about his mortality in recent years and how the window for making films is shrinking due to his age. Paired with his previous narrative film Silence, I get the feeling Scorsese is tying up all loose ends. Both The Irishman and Silence feel like the work of someone looking back at their life and legacy, analyzing/criticizing it and saying the things that he probably wants to say or at least emphasize that wasn't as pronounced before. They're almost by design final testament films.

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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#524 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:00 pm

ford wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:38 pm
FrauBlucher wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:32 pm
Drucker, thanks for posting. I’ve been contemplating revisiting this myself. When I first saw it I was nonplussed and felt it was overly long. But every now and then I would think about the film. Besides Scorsese deserves additional chances in changing initial reactions. Scorsese does indeed romanticizes the mobster and that life. I do think Coppola deserves the credit for romanticization of this genre with The Godfather. Scorsese’s first mob movie, Mean Streets, does not have that feel to it. Much more gritty and down and dirty.
I dunno, if anything, I thought it romanticized Hoffa (a complex figure for whom I have much sympathy as he was trying to accomplish trade union advancement in hostile-as-hell-USA).
I maintain that the film only works as well as it does because Pacino's Hoffa is being morphed to embody imperfect but ideal existential engagement with passion, awareness, and intent; contrasting with De Niro and all the other characters in this milieu as the (compromised, but that's part of the worldview) shining example of courageous 'participation' in life, moral failings and all, since the others can't even see peripherally at anything beyond the surface-level, spoon-fed, already-carved-out-for-them idea of their myopic agendas- exposed as fear-based and cowardly and pathetic and a lifestyle that's heavily de-romanticized. Any romanticization of Hoffa is implemented primarily for a self-consciously thematic rather than historically accurate purpose

ford
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Re: 1058 The Irishman

#525 Post by ford » Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:56 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:00 pm
ford wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:38 pm
FrauBlucher wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:32 pm
Drucker, thanks for posting. I’ve been contemplating revisiting this myself. When I first saw it I was nonplussed and felt it was overly long. But every now and then I would think about the film. Besides Scorsese deserves additional chances in changing initial reactions. Scorsese does indeed romanticizes the mobster and that life. I do think Coppola deserves the credit for romanticization of this genre with The Godfather. Scorsese’s first mob movie, Mean Streets, does not have that feel to it. Much more gritty and down and dirty.
I dunno, if anything, I thought it romanticized Hoffa (a complex figure for whom I have much sympathy as he was trying to accomplish trade union advancement in hostile-as-hell-USA).
I maintain that the film only works as well as it does because Pacino's Hoffa is being morphed to embody imperfect but ideal existential engagement with passion, awareness, and intent; contrasting with De Niro and all the other characters in this milieu as the (compromised, but that's part of the worldview) shining example of courageous 'participation' in life, moral failings and all, since the others can't even see peripherally at anything beyond the surface-level, spoon-fed, already-carved-out-for-them idea of their myopic agendas- exposed as fear-based and cowardly and pathetic and a lifestyle that's heavily de-romanticized. Any romanticization of Hoffa is implemented primarily for a self-consciously thematic rather than historically accurate purpose
Really wish it could've been Ray Liotta as Hoffa though.

By the way, related: "How the Teamsters pension disappeared more quickly under Wall Street than the mob"
Last edited by ford on Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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