1126 Double Indemnity

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DimitriL
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Re: Double Indemnity (Billy Wilder, 1944)

#26 Post by DimitriL » Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:22 pm

Roscoe wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:14 am
Sorry to nitpick. I like the film a good deal. For me the big issue in the film is, well, what the hell does Walter see in that vulgar bleached blonde tramp Phyllis? Does he really expect to live happily ever after with that creature, who hasn't spent ten minutes total in his company before she's trying to use him in a plot to kill her husband and scam an insurance company?
I tend to agree with the Eddie Muller and Imogen Sara Smith discussion that they really don't see anything in each other but an opportunity. Walter's love affair is with the chance to murder someone and she's a quick means to that.

One of the reasons I'm fascinated by Body Heat is because it seems specifically about, "What if we did Double Indemnity but the protagonist really WAS turned on by the wife?"

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domino harvey
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Re: Double Indemnity (Billy Wilder, 1944)

#27 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:35 pm

I think MacMurray is no different from any other noir protagonist thinking with his dick or his wallet (or both, as here), and there’s a certain hot plate appeal in most noirs for a woman who you know is poison (an element better portrayed in Out of the Past, among many others). I don’t think he’d be as eager to play along if Agnes Moorehead came slinking down the stairs in that first meeting, even if the ultimate appeal transcends mere sex

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FrauBlucher
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Re: Double Indemnity (Billy Wilder, 1944)

#28 Post by FrauBlucher » Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:53 pm

sloper wrote:Walter is stuck in a dead-end job, terrified of being given more responsibility – he loves his boss but doesn’t want to become more like him – and, as it turns out, secretly haunted by the lure of pulling off an audacious insurance heist. He claims to have killed Dietrichson ‘for the money, and for a woman’, but maybe one of the reasons he doesn’t get either of those things is that they weren’t his real motive. He appears deeply apathetic about his work and career, so it’s fascinating that he gets excited about subverting it, and pulling one over on Keyes, and getting to tell him all about it some day.
I feel it's less about his work and more about his life in general. He comes across as someone who suffers of boredom and lacks any excitement.


When I watch noirs I never try to look for the logical. Most of what happens is a means to an end. Walter and Phyllis seem no different.

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Black Hat
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Re: Double Indemnity (Billy Wilder, 1944)

#29 Post by Black Hat » Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:54 pm

I know I wrote in one of the list threads I was lukewarm on this but, without seeing it again, having talked about it with friends a bit since that time, the pendulum's swung back. I doubt I'll be able to rewatch it over the next few days but, are we saying that Walter was evil? I always saw his character as an immature dumb ass who risked it all for a dip in the Stanwyck, things snowballed, and he paid the severest price. Tale as old as time, no?

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Roger Ryan
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Re: Double Indemnity (Billy Wilder, 1944)

#30 Post by Roger Ryan » Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:58 am

I think Sloper has it about right in that Neff has a love/hate relationship with Keyes. Neff is motivated by wanting to prove he has wits as sharp as his boss’s but on his own terms. He’s not so much evil as amoral, convincing himself that the husband’s death is inevitable so he might as well “do it the right way”. From that point on, Neff thinks he’s in the clear as long he stays true to his own set of rules, rules that will allow him to win the game as he sees it. When it all goes awry, he will still attain his goal by recording his account of the events for Keyes to show his worth. He believes he’s doing the right thing by admitting his guilt while showing off his smarts - he wants it both ways.

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Sloper
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Re: Double Indemnity (Billy Wilder, 1944)

#31 Post by Sloper » Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:52 pm

I’ve honestly never had any trouble buying into the Walter/Phyllis relationship. Yes, she’s Barbara Stanwyck not Agnes Moorehead (although I’d love to see Moorehead play this role), and the first thing that draws Walter to Phyllis is erotic attraction: the barely-withheld spectacle/fantasy of her naked body sunbathing on the roof. But this is displaced onto the fun of exchanging snappy dialogue with her, and then, most powerfully, onto the ‘red hot poker’, the ‘hook’ that is too strong to let go of.

To me Phyllis seems much more interesting and convincingly seductive than the femmes fatales in Out of the Past or The Killers, and I think it’s misguided to suggest that she and Walter ‘don’t see anything in each other but an opportunity’, or that Walter just wants a chance to murder someone. There’s something irresistible about the scheme Phyllis proposes, but also about the prospect of executing this scheme with her, specifically, and the film makes us understand this through hundreds of small interactions and moments of complicity between these two. I’ll just talk about a few of these in the early part of the film.

There’s the famous ‘speed limit’ exchange, of course, where Phyllis decides she’s familiar and comfortable enough with Walter’s deliberately stupid sense of humour to engage in some lightly sado-masochistic role-play, while still putting off his advances. But things get more interesting after this.

Roscoe, I love the ‘straightening things’ moment in The Maltese Falcon, but it’s very different from ‘I wonder if you wonder’: Brigid is play-acting nervously because she’s fighting for her life, and Sam is drawn to her, in part, because of how transparent and essentially guileless her pretences are. That’s why the ending of that film carries as much emotional weight as it does.

Phyllis, on the other hand, isn’t really trying to pretend – she wants Walter to see through her. Walter comments on the ‘sameness’ of her life, and instead of shrugging and saying that’s the way she likes it, Phyllis responds, ‘I wonder if I know what you mean’. This is coy, but deliberately and beautifully so, as though she’s standing outside herself and speculating as to whether she is truly unhappy enough to catch Walter’s meaning. Walter’s response, though it makes fun of her, is also picking up on her phrasing and playing along with it – and sure enough (unlike Brigid) she doesn’t seem at all undermined or embarrassed. Fundamentally, the exchange means: ‘I can’t openly admit to understanding you.’ / ‘You don’t have to.’ The impression I’m left with here is of two people operating on the same wavelength and getting mutual pleasure from their exchange.

That impression doesn’t wear off in the next encounter, when Walter does (to an extent) undermine and embarrass Phyllis. This doesn’t feel like ‘the end’ for these two because Walter confronts Phyllis by once again ‘playing along’ with her game rather than just putting a stop to it: ‘of course it doesn’t have to be a crown block…’ I think this is the first time he calls her ‘baby’ – ‘Look baby, you can’t get away with it’ – and it’s telling that the first moment of real confrontation is heralded by the first use of this problematic term of endearment. And yes, she says he’s ‘rotten’ but they both know he’s right; he responds, ‘I think you’re swell – as long as I’m not your husband’, and he’s not simply being sarcastic. Although the conversation ends with him being thrown out, we’re supposed to understand that the two characters are still on the same page, and I’m not surprised or sceptical when Walter realises he ‘hasn’t walked out on anything’, and that her showing up at his door is ‘the most natural thing in the world’.

Then we have the scene in his apartment, and it’s worth contrasting this setting with the Dietrichson household. Walter gets the measure of that house before he even goes inside – outdated, pretentious, ruinously expensive, a trap – and I love how he feeds the goldfish while commenting on the dust hanging in the air, evoking an association between the dust and the fish-food, and between Phyllis and the fish. She’s a damsel trapped in a tower, a prisoner with an anklet ‘cutting into her leg’. Maybe Wilder wanted the blonde wig to make Phyllis seem like ‘a tramp’, but I think it’s another kind of prison wall, imposing a very ill-fitting identity on Stanwyck: look how distinctive and dynamic her hair is in other films, whipping about as she gestures frantically with her head; her enforced stillness in Double Indemnity isn’t just sinister, it’s also kind of poignant, like she’s not allowed to express real emotions.

So the wig is of a piece with the house, the husband, the lifestyle. We get the idea, at the same time as Walter, that Phyllis is trapped in an intolerable nightmare. The snarky, foolish, erotic banter between these two seems hilariously out of place in this stuffy household, so we also understand why Walter would appeal to Phyllis – and why the appeal goes beyond just ‘this guy can help get rid of my husband’, or rather, why getting rid of the husband means more than just getting rid of the husband.

Walter’s apartment is limiting in a different way, in that it’s noticeably smaller than the Dietrichson house, it’s up a couple of flights of stairs, and it couldn’t be more sparsely decorated without actually looking like no one lives there. The line, ‘see if you can carry that as far as the living room’ is a knowing comment on the smallness of this space, but Walter is really saying ‘isn’t this better?’ The enormous Spanish-style house is effectively a goldfish bowl, whereas this apartment is an opaque, private space in which you can say and do whatever you want. You can look out at the world through the window, and instead of sun-rays and dust you get fresh air and falling rain. You can also leave the lights off and be physically intimate, and whisper in each other’s ears, and even the dolly-shot/dissolve that covers the sex scene enhances the sense of privacy and intimacy. Phyllis understands Walter’s home as quickly as he understood hers: ‘Just strangers besides you. You don’t know them and you don’t hate them.’

The witty exchanges are toned down from here on, but I think the chemistry is maintained and deepened, not only by the transition to a more intimate space, but also by the specific kinds of interaction we see between Walter and Phyllis. Take that wonderful back-and-forth while they’re embracing for the first time: ‘That perfume in your hair, what is it?’ ‘I don’t know, I bought it in Ensenada.’ ‘We oughta have some of that pink wine to go with it – the kind that bubbles. All I got is bourbon.’ ‘Bourbon is just fine, Walter.’ For me, there’s more chemistry here than in most love scenes in movies. There’s an emphasis on physical intimacy in the discussion about what Phyllis’s hair smells like, and in their breathless, sultry whispering, and in visual terms it’s cathartic to see the characters kiss and hold each other after all the shot/reverse-shot exchanges in previous scenes. But the conversation ends up being more about game-playing once again. They imagine that the perfume is fancy enough that its name would be worth remembering, or that it would go well with champagne, but they also delight in the mundanity of ‘bought it in Ensenada’, the sub-champagne bathos of ‘pink wine, the kind that bubbles’, and the even deeper bathos of bourbon and tap water served up in a tiny, dark kitchen.

I won’t keep poring over the details of what happens next, but this last example captures what I think is so compelling about the planning and execution of the murder. It all feels like a game, or a ‘ride’ to use the imagery from the film, and I love all the intricate details of how it plays out, and how Walter and Phyllis have to communicate with each other in the aisles of the grocery store or via overheard phone conversations, or in that moment that sends a shiver down my spine when she glances at him in the back of the car before driving her husband to his doom – or, of course, the famous scene where the car won’t start, and he has to lean over her to get it going. I guess I can see why not everyone would buy into all this, but for me the chemistry between these two is phenomenal.

The next question is why the relationship falls apart after the murder, after the game starts to disintegrate. It’s perhaps worth drawing a comparison with Macbeth, in which the central couple also enjoy a kind of transgressive chemistry up to and including the murder of Duncan, but then find themselves drifting apart. As with Walter’s motivations for becoming a murderer, or falling in love with Phyllis, it’s not quite clear why Macbeth or his wife like the idea of seizing the throne. Lady Macbeth says that killing the king ‘shall to all our nights and days to come give solely sovereign sway and masterdom’, and I think there’s a similar (and similarly vague, un-fulfillable) fantasy of power and liberty behind the scheme in Double Indemnity. That’s why it’s important not to dismiss or downplay the significance of the ‘opportunity’ Walter and Phyllis see in each other. Macbeth isn’t really about killing the king, and this film isn’t really about killing your spouse. The real motive lies somewhere in the chemistry between Walter and Phyllis, that energy passing between them that stops her from firing the second shot at the end, and I think it has to do with the sense of freedom they both find (however briefly) in playing these games with each other.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 1126 Double Indemnity

#32 Post by FrauBlucher » Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:32 am

What a terrific half hour spent watching Imogen Sara Smith and Eddie Muller. I hope they use the pair again on other noirs Criterion releases.

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aox
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Re: 1126 Double Indemnity

#33 Post by aox » Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:46 pm

Criterion Channel is going to bundle this up in November under Queer Cinema. It raised an eyebrow for me. I've seen this movie almost a dozen times, though not in some years and the relationship between Neff and Keyes never crossed my mind as queer. I Googled around, and it seems the most compelling evidence is the cigarette lighting. Obviously, at that time, cigarette smoking represented sex or sexuality, and of course, Wilder would have known that. However, that seems tenuous and unconvincing - to me. Is there something else I missed?

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TechnicolorAcid
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Re: 1126 Double Indemnity

#34 Post by TechnicolorAcid » Fri Nov 01, 2024 2:55 pm

SpoilerShow
Personally, I found the queer subtext in the final scene where Neff is with Keyes begging him to just leave him there and not reveal his secret which could possibly be seen as a representation of queer folks back then purposefully hiding their identity until their dying death and die as a normal man (at least to society’s standards) rather than be found out and get into trouble with the law. At least that’s what I think, though it’s been a while since I last saw Double Indemnity so take my interpretation with a grain of salt.

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thekeystobarton
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Re: 1126 Double Indemnity

#35 Post by thekeystobarton » Fri Nov 01, 2024 6:14 pm

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Personally, I do not see any queer-subtext to this film. There may be some unintentional homoeroticism which unobservant viewers could extrapolate from the obvious closeness of the characters of Keyes and Neff, however, I have never subscribed to this as anything other than a "bromance." I have even referred to this film as having a prime (and early) example of an "office bromance" when trying to describe the unique relationship between these characters. Personally, I see Phyllis's character as the one which would be willing and able to use anyone for anything- male or female- but that is due to her character being a borderline sociopath. Even when Neff repeatedly says he "loves" Keyes, it is a gesture which has various meanings depending which scene the line is coming from. Neff's character saying he "loves" Keyes is not a queer-subtext in of itself, it is almost a leitmotif to show us his progression down the rabbit-hole of premeditated murder, a mile-marker we pass repeatedly and can see differently each time as the crimes and tension build upon each other. Likewise, in the final scene where Keyes says to Neff that they were closer than just two men working across the desk from one another, that is hardly a declaration of love, but rather a bittersweet acknowledgment of the history of respect, trust and commiserations that these two went thru at the insurance company for years before Neff met Phyllis and which Neff now has kicked to the curb.

Having said all that, the tried-and-true gesture of lighting cigarettes (and/or cigars) can indeed have a well-documented queer subtext in films as well in real life which predate Double Indemnity by decades and continues on for decades afterwards. Alongside the coding of pocket-squares, and flowers in button-holes, the very act of how a cigarette is lit and held is such a long-standing pick-up amongst men seeking to hook-up or just letting another man know that they are at least on the spectrum is so overly-used as to be a eye-rolling trope. For this film though, I disagree with the new interview on the Channel about this particular part of the "queer" subtext to the film. Keyes goes throughout the film not merely smoking cigars but wearing them as well (vest pockets) and yet Neff never once smokes a cigar or holds one upon his person. In this film, if there was a queer-subtext to the match-lighting, then the very difference between preferences (cigars vs cigarettes) fails the scrutiny of the spectrum itself: if there was a queer subtext to this then why are they not smoking the same things? If they were queer-shaded characters or if the gestures were coded queer, having a cigar for one and a cigarette for the other does not hold up within that context as well as if they both were smoking the same thing, or at least - perhaps- if there was clarifying dialog given as to why one smokes only cigars and the other never does (anyone remember the "snails vs oysters" scene from Spartacus as a parallel in this train of thought?). In terms of the matches, it is indeed Neff who is always lighting a match one-handed for Keyes, but if you carefully observe, Keyes never allows Neff's match to touch his cigar. It is always Keyes who takes the match from Neff and then Keyes holds that match up himself to light his own cigar. This I take not as a gesture of animosity or even homophobia, but rather Keyes is a belt-and-suspenders character who is so cautious he would rather light his own cigar regardless of who is handing him a cigar and/or match. There is even one moment in the insurance office (the scene is before the murder occurs) where Neff holds Keyes's arm in a friendly-enough way, and it is Keyes who gives a look to Neff and quickly moves to the door. I do not mean to suggest that Keyes thought Walter was getting too familiar, rather I take that moment, again, as Keyes being such an overly-cautious person as not wanting to let anyone come too close to him. Also, Keyes only lights a cigarette once for Neff, in the final minutes of the last scene. And it is indeed a touching gesture, in part because the cigarette is stained with Neff's own blood, but this was never intended as the actual ending of the film (it was a compromise when Wilder's final scene showing the gas-chamber was not able to be used as the final scene). And frankly, the gesture of a dying man being offered one final cigarette (before his comeuppance) is such a well-worn histrionic cliché it makes my eyes roll so hard I don't have the energy to read into it within a queer subtext too.

The only possible- and, for me, remote- queer-subtext would be is if we entertain the unsubstantiated idea that the character of Barton Keyes is deeply-closeted, so deeply ingrained he may not even be fully cognizant of it. After all, Keyes called off an engagement with a woman for spurious reasons (dying her hair since she was 16) and looks down at the idea of Walter dating a woman who Keyes believes (erroneously) to be named "Margie" (Keyes reaction to that bit is to say, "I bet she drinks from the bottle"). And there is the old queer-subtext trope of being a size-queen: when Neff turns down Keyes's offer to work as an adjuster rather than as an agent, it is Keyes who says to Neff, "You're not smarter, you're just taller." But none of these are proof-positive of any queer-subtext and for me just do not have the ring of truth of queer-subtexts (in fact, the jokey line about Neff being taller is hardly a queer-shaded line in of itself as it is actually just a factual, accurate statement: Robinson is shorter than MacMurray).

And in the last analysis, perhaps we need to remember: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

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aox
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Re: 1126 Double Indemnity

#36 Post by aox » Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:37 pm

Excellent write-up. Thanks to both of you. I'm all for approaching movies from every angle, particularly this period during the Code. But, I don't see it here.

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: 1126 Double Indemnity

#37 Post by yoloswegmaster » Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:57 pm

There is a new 40 minute conversation between Michael Koresky and Imogen Sara Smith that will likely touch upon why it's been added to the series (alongside the other titles in that series).

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Matt
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Re: 1126 Double Indemnity

#38 Post by Matt » Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:37 am

Their conversation (just a few minutes of the 40-minute video) focuses on the idea that Walter and Phyllis' relationship is doomed and "diseased" from the start and Walter and Keyes' relationship is more loving and "virtuous." I mean, I guess, but it's a pretty thin hook to hang a queered reading on. I've always seen Keyes as more of a disappointed father figure than anything else.

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