613-614 Summer Interlude and Summer with Monika

[tachyonEvan]

Why is sympathy important? Many characters from lesser and greater films are the POV yet garner no sympathy. It doesn't seem like a practical complaint especially when sympathy is not a concern of the director.

You're right. Sympathy, likeability, relatability = not important. No protg need be pleasant or do what we'd personally approve of or want something that's generally societally acceptable. But empathy is pretty much all important. We need to the see a character's dilemma dramatized in such a way that we can understand their choices psychologically. And if that's done masterfully, with a big heart and zero judgment, then you've got real drama.

I’m not disagreeing with what you’re saying here – I’m saying that Summer With Monika failed to inspire any such feelings from me because the characters aren’t afforded the “masterful” detail that would allow them to do so.

I’ve also said that maybe the film needs another viewing, and you yourself said I should probably watch more Bergman before I can truly appreciate this film.

Which is weird because we've been talking about A Separation too and that's the thing I think the film does most successfully, allow us to take the perspectives of each of its characters, really see things from their POV.

To be fair, “we” weren’t really talking about A Separation – you brought it up as an example of my ignorance to the “greater glory of better films,” or something. (However you intended it, it came across as a snarky insult. Just because it was the film inspired me to seek out other masterpieces doesn’t make me inferior.)

And yes, I agree – that’s one of the most masterful things about Farghadi’s film. The film doesn’t “choose sides” because its characters are complex enough that it can afford the different – and incongruous – moral perspectives. Harry and Monika aren’t afforded the same detail, attention, or ambiguity.

[warren oates]

Do you think Monika really understands – or for that matter, cares – the consequences of their summer excursion? Seems like textbook teenager to me – she’s excited once she thinks she’s pregnant, but completely disinterested once she actually is in possession of a child. I believe I remember a line that essentially amounted to “I just want to have fun!” So at the end, we’re left with Monika – irresponsible as she’s always been – and Harry – who’s now on his own, recognizing what huge mistakes he’s made. I see no character growth from Monika – is that the point?

Yes, that's the point. Though I don't know if Monika is ever supposed to come to as self-aware a moment of understanding as Harry, she does suffer from what's passed between them and realize it to some degree.

And what I don’t buy is that the audience isn’t supposed to pass judgment – how can we not? Are there other villains in this film, outside of Lelle (himself a teenager), who himself ends up as the object of Monika’s affection despite all his jealous violent outbursts? Is anyone other than Monika and Harry accountable for their actions?

I suppose we'll have to disagree about the fundamental nature and purpose of drama then. I say, leave the judgements to Judy.

To be fair, “we” weren’t really talking about A Separation – you brought it up as an example of my ignorance to the “greater glory of better films,” or something. (However you intended it, it came across as a snarky insult. Just because it was the film inspired me to seek out other masterpieces doesn’t make me inferior.)

Well, your vehement championing of A Separation's stuck in my memory for a couple of reasons: 1) because of the way you broached it initially, Armond Whitishly, as being way better than Certified Copy by contrast and 2) as an example of the kind of great dramatic storytelling I usually ought to value (but in this instance didn't think much of). Granted, A Separation does much to build our empathy with all its characters, but then not enough with all of that feeling.

So, what other Bergmans have you seen?

[mfunk9786]

This dick size competition is getting ridiculous

[Zot!]

This film came out quite a few years before Bergman established the films he has come to be known for. I don't think anyone will argue that this is the best example of a definitive Bergman film. It is an adaptation of a story, that happens to be a melodrama, and was likely done as a commercial effort. I would agree that it is mostly remembered because the director and star continued to greater success in far more accomplished filmmaking. I very much like the movie, and am overjoyed it was released, however when questioning why it is a Criterion release, please consider that it has only now been entered into the collection since they first started, and they have released pretty much everything else they have rights to from Bergman already.

As to why the "nature" isn't what you'd expect of it, the Stockholm Archipelago is a very distinctive landscape, and obviously the photography depicts it as it is, which is not at all like the tropical beauty of the Blue Lagoon or whatever.

[tachyonEvan]

Yes, that's the point. Though I don't know if Monika is ever supposed to come to as self-aware a moment of understanding as Harry, she does suffer from what's passed between them and realize it to some degree.

Again, I must have missed the part where Monika truly “suffered” from her actions. She mostly just melodramatically cried a lot when she didn’t get her way, and Harry’s in over his head at that point.

SpoilerShow

MONIKA SLEEPS WITH THE GUY WHO SET FIRE TO THEIR BOAT.

Well, your vehement championing of A Separation's stuck in my memory for a couple of reasons: 1) because of the way you broached it initially, Armond Whitishly, as being way better than Certified Copy by contrast and 2) as an example of the kind of great dramatic storytelling I usually ought to value (but in this instance didn't think much of). Granted, A Separation does much to build our empathy with all its characters, but then not enough with all of that feeling.

The only reason I brought it up as a point of comparison is because it’s an Iranian film (well, technically a French film by an Iranian director, but you know, I didn’t have breadth for comparison) that was released on blu-ray by Criterion. And I really like A Separation, and it inspired my newfound passion for foreign cinema.
However, this is a discussion of A Separation and ME and not of Summer With Monika, so it’s probably best to drop or move it.

So, what other Bergmans have you seen?

Fanny and Alexander, The Seventh Seal, and now Summer With Monika (in that order).

[warren oates]

So, what other Bergmans have you seen?

Fanny and Alexander, The Seventh Seal, and now Summer With Monika (in that order).

And those first two didn't make you want to see everything else by him? Or did they set your expectations too high for this admittedly early work? Maybe screening some of the really excellent two-hander chamber dramas from the 1960s would put the relative strengths of Monika in a different light: Hour of the Wolf, Shame, Persona or anything from the faith trilogy.

[tachyonEvan]

So, what other Bergmans have you seen?

Fanny and Alexander, The Seventh Seal, and now Summer With Monika (in that order).

And those first two didn't make you want to see everything else by him? Or did they set your expectations too high for this admittedly early work? Maybe screening some of the really excellent two-hander chamber dramas from the 1960s would put the relative strengths of Monika in a different light: Hour of the Wolf, Shame, Persona or anything from the faith trilogy.

Also, I left one out – I’ve also seen The Magic Flute.

They DID make me want to see more by him – a pursuit I intend to continue. I just rather disliked Summer With Monika. I haven’t given up on him or anything – I only posted in here because I was genuinely surprised at how disappointing Summer With Monika was and wanted feedback on what’s going on with this movie. I appreciate the recs, and I intend to check out those that I have access to as soon as I get a chance.

[Zot!]

ignore.

[Matt]

I think the point that several of us have been attempting to make is that it's on you if the movie was "disappointing." That feeling is based on the expectations you brought to the movie as AN IMPORTANT CLASSIC and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the film itself.

If you really are beginning to explore the canon, the best thing you can do is keep an open mind and approach each film on its own terms, ignoring what everyone else has to say about it. You will most likely find that you find things to love about films that others consider garbage and that you have serious criticisms about films widely acclaimed as masterpieces.

[tachyonEvan]

I think the point that several of us have been attempting to make is that it's on you if the movie was "disappointing." That feeling is based on the expectations you brought to the movie as AN IMPORTANT CLASSIC and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the film itself.

If you really are beginning to explore the canon, the best thing you can do is keep an open mind and approach each film on its own terms, ignoring what everyone else has to say about it. You will most likely find that you find things to love about films that others consider garbage and that you have serious criticisms about films widely acclaimed as masterpieces.

Yes, expectations color experience, and I understand that balancing that is key to appreciating a good number of these films. However, it’s not as if I’m in here stomping my feet about Seven Samurai. The entire first page of this thread is riddled with reactions ranging from “alright” to “never been a fan” to “not wholly successful.” Regardless of the expectations I came into the film with, I just don’t think Summer With Monika is a very good movie on its own terms. Others in this thread also appear to be lukewarm on the film. The things that bother me about this film are things I would hold any other film to the same standard of. Is the problem here that if I don’t enjoy something with a spine number, I should avoid going in the thread and saying so?

[Matt]

No, but you seem either to need validation of your opinion of the film as not very good (which, as you've noted, several people here already share) or need someone to convince you that your opinion is wrong. This film is not even in the top half of Bergman's work (even IMDb users mostly agree with me), so just move on. You might feel compelled to revisit it after you've seen a larger portion of his work, but I don't think the energy you are investing in this discussion right now is worth it. You don't yet have enough grounding in Bergman's other films to see what might be interesting about it, and it's not really a film that stands on its own without that and other film-historical context.

Some films, even some by world-class directors and in the Criterion Collection, just aren't that great.

[mteller]

tachyonEvan, I ask you this: what did you make of the long, intense close-up (echoed later in the film) where Harriet Andersson stares directly at the camera? Did this say anything to you? Did it perhaps say "Please don't judge me" or "I dare you to judge me"... or even both? Did it maybe say "I know I'm about to cross a serious line here"? Or did you just perceive it as a quirky shot between reckless acts of selfish behavior by the horrible human being Monika?

[warren oates]

tachyonEvan, I ask you this: what did you make of the long, intense close-up (echoed later in the film) where Harriet Andersson stares directly at the camera? Did this say anything to you? Did it perhaps say "Please don't judge me" or "I dare you to judge me"... or even both? Did it maybe say "I know I'm about to cross a serious line here"? Or did you just perceive it as a quirky shot between reckless acts of selfish behavior by the horrible human being Monika?

This is the key shot for Godard too and his piece on it is worth a look for his appreciation of this moment alone.

[matrixschmatrix]

And those first two didn't make you want to see everything else by him? Or did they set your expectations too high for this admittedly early work? Maybe screening some of the really excellent two-hander chamber dramas from the 1960s would put the relative strengths of Monika in a different light: Hour of the Wolf, Shame, Persona or anything from the faith trilogy.

Or you could watch The Serpent's Egg and get a feeling for what a seriously crappy Bergman looks like

[knives]

Aw, but that has some Carradine induced fun.

[tachyonEvan]

tachyonEvan, I ask you this: what did you make of the long, intense close-up (echoed later in the film) where Harriet Andersson stares directly at the camera? Did this say anything to you? Did it perhaps say "Please don't judge me" or "I dare you to judge me"... or even both? Did it maybe say "I know I'm about to cross a serious line here"? Or did you just perceive it as a quirky shot between reckless acts of selfish behavior by the horrible human being Monika?

This is an interesting point. I went back and revisited the scene (I still have the DVD checked out from the library) and there's a good argument to be made here. I said before that there were interesting shots towards the end of the film, when the consequences become tangible, and that's certainly one of them.

[Tommaso]

Interesting to read this discussion after having just watched the film for the second time (only the arrival of this brand new CC edition made me watch it again after five or perhaps even more years), because I can understand exactly where tachyon comes from; rather similar to my initial reaction to the film way back then, and I basically only bought the CC because I wanted the extras in the first place. But this second viewing was almost a revelation for me. The first thing that strikes me about "Monika" now is how incredibly modern it is, compared to other films about teenage love from that period (I've just seen a few Italian examples for the 50s listmaking), how honest and brutal and gentle Bergman is with this material, how believably he forms the contrast between the essentially bourgeois - and I mean that not in a negative way - Harry and the free-floating and admittedly sometimes terribly annoying Monika. The film depends of course on Harriet Andersson's performance, which I find nothing short of amazing. She manages to move from decidedly slutty behaviour to touching humanity within seconds, which is even reflected in her outward appearance: I guess Bergman draws a little on the 'gypsy' stereotype in the sequence when she steals the food from that rich household, for instance, and some deliberately 'unpleasant' appearances can also be seen in other parts of the film, and she is never as 'sweet' as her namesake Bibi would be in later films. But once the viewer has become momentarily convinced that she's nothing but a terrible pain the arse, Bergman shows us a quick shot of her face, revealing all the vulnerability and the frustrated hopes that lie beyond that. In that respect, as was mentioned already, the moments of 'clothed' intimacy are far more captivating than those few instances of pretty harmless nudity. The cigarette-smoking scene indeed expresses a longing for a 'joy of life', only momentarily fulfilled in the trip to the archipelago, which - like Monika - as a viewer one wishes should never end .

And I would agree with what was said before: Bergman doesn't pass any judgement on his characters, and that is what makes the film so credible for me. As a portrait of the rebellious dreams of youth and the harsh realities that thwart their fulfillment, I find it wholly successful especially because Bergman's style - and there's a lot of it - never gets so much in the forefront as in Godard. "A bout de souffle" may be more important and formally more innovative, but I find "Monika" to be communicating a similar craving for 'life' in a far more direct and emotional way. The film of course is not as perfect or important as Bergman's later masterworks, but really: I'm very glad that I finally rewatched it.

[tachyonEvan]

That Harriet Andersson shot really does stick with you... man, I hate to say it, but you guys (referring to those of you insisting that a further experience with Bergman would lead to further appreciation of this film) may end up being right. For a movie I felt so strongly about, I've kind of felt like re-visiting it. Or at least the scenes that aren't just shots of water and rocks.

[Gregory]

I find that Monika holds together as a compelling and lovely looking film until about the final third, when the trademark Bergman miserablism sets in. I don't know what his intentions were, but I sense a kind of gleefulness or satisfaction in the way he slaps his young lovers with a dose of realism (something that doesn't seem to preoccupy Bergman at all in most of his films) in order to ratchet up the drama. "So! You believe in romantic love, some kind of silly amour fou, and you want to run away and be free, holding hands and leaping into the unknown? We'll see what you have to say after you're dirty, sick of eating mushrooms, and worse yet to come!" He brings the couple together only to have us watch them wrenched apart again, and the workings of the relationship and its circumstances end up buried in a kind of cynicism (presenting itself as the cold, hard facts of life) that's none too interesting to observe.

[mfunk9786]

I'm with you, Gregory. I was rather captivated by the film until it decided to take Monika's character to extremes that weren't necessary or altogether natural. Unless we were being given a very early portrayal of post-partum depression on film here, I'm not too sure why the side-by-side of careless young love and the realities of real life had to be so grim. Isn't it enough to portray the difficulties of marriage and parenthood without blowing everything up altogether? It's a very good film, but the heavy-handedness of the third act keeps it from being a great one.

[mfunk9786]

I have to briefly contradict my above post and state that a second viewing of the film calmed me down a great deal. I began to notice character traits in Monika early on that I'd ignored the first time around, and the ending doesn't feel like as big a leap. The film came off to me more as a quiet study in the sad moment when innocence grows impractical and one sets off to make difficult choices about what youthful traits they will (or won't) pack in their suitcase on the all too quick ride to adulthood. I happily retract my statement that this is not a great film... I feel like it's one I'll revisit often.

[omegadirective]

I watched Summer With Monika last week for the first time, and I really loved it.I give it a five out of five
I have been thinking about the film quite a bit since I watched it.

I absolutely hate Monika after after watching this film.

However, I love when a movie gives me such a strong reaction to the characters and events.
I find it to be very rare to have a movie impact me in such a strong way.

My point of view is as a father and provider for my family (my wife also works full time).
I’m angry with Monika for being so selfish while the boy is doing his best to provide for the family.
I realize not all couples are destined to stay together forever, and this whole relationship happened in a summer of passion between two immature characters who were not prepared to become parents or prepared for commitment, but that still doesn’t tame my hatred for Monika.

This movie is a masterpiece.

[mteller]

Bergman certainly doesn't leave a lot of room to empathize with her, but I think that stunning close-up at the end goes a long way. Her eyes both beg you not to judge her and defy you to.

[davidhuxley]

Does anyone have a definitive source giving the date that Janus Films released MONIKA (aka SUMMER WITH MONIKA) in the US? Wikipedia says that they released it the year after the sexploitation Kroger Babb-edited version of 1955. Searching on Archive.org through old issues of Variety came up fruitless because they don't distinguish between the two versions. Any help would be appreciated.