141 Children of Paradise

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Jeff
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:49 pm
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#226 Post by Jeff » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:39 pm

Lance wrote:Is grain management more important than story?
To Marcel Carné? No.

To the person entrusted with preserving the look of the celluloid image in a manner that looks as close as possible to projection on the film's initial release? Yes.

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Gregory
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#227 Post by Gregory » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:56 pm

I stopped reading at
Who’s to say how it is done? You all? Who made you the judge of all things restoration? Was this something ordained to you by (fill in your deity of choice)? I was not aware that optimizing and saving content had to go through your special committee prior to distribution so that the rest of us inferior masses could simply enjoy the content. I will certainly let the studio heads know of this new procedure.
Others will surely have more patience, but I guess I'll just go back to my role of faithful and passive consumer. After all, I certainly don't have a destiny in film forged with my own mythological journey and tied to the forward progression of the human race or anything swell like that.

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triodelover
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#228 Post by triodelover » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:09 pm

Lance wrote:I apologize for the above commentary.
Please. If you were sorry you would have edited out the language. Honesty is a key component of credibility. Yours just took a hit.

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Drucker
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#229 Post by Drucker » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:16 pm

Lance, all "the people" really want is for the film to look as close as possible to how it was shot and existed on film for decades, which is the only way we can read into what the director wanted. Comparing it to Lucas is silly for so many reasons, but among them, Lucas is the ONLY person who has the right to do what he did.

There is a lotta silly to digest in your post, but the fact that this all came up with regards to Paradise and you possibly hadn't seen it before your own companies tools were used in a 4K scan really harm the leg you might be trying to stand on with this incident.

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swo17
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#230 Post by swo17 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:33 pm

I'm not a technical expert. It's my understanding that some degree of grain removal/management is necessary in many (most? all?) cases, and I don't doubt that Cinnafilm's products can work well in the right hands. It's entirely possible that I've seen other films that have been run through a similar process and I've thought they looked fine. Indeed, some (maybe half?) of the new Children of Paradise transfer looks excellent. (Les Visiteurs du soir looks uniformly excellent as well. Was Cinnafilm involved with that transfer at all?) The problem here is--and I suppose this comes down to a fundamental difference of opinion--I just think the texture apparent in the rest of the transfer (primarily in close-ups) looks plain bad, overly waxy and artificial-looking, whereas "before footage" of the same scenes, though exhibiting signs of damage, does not share this same problem. I should mention: I've never seen this film other than through home video. I'm not pining for it to look like it did for me ages ago. But I do watch a lot of films, and a lot of films of this vintage. Maybe Carné would have shot this on a RED today, maybe in color. Maybe he would have envisioned it as a graphic novel, a cooking show, or a series of YouTube videos. He didn't. He made a film. Children of Paradise is a film. When Carné would look at dailies, it's probably true that he cared more about scene composition, the quality of takes, or how the story was progressing more than whether the footage looked like it was shot on film. But that's because, as he was in the business of making films, it was a given that the film he was then making would look more or less like a film. If he had been screened footage from the film and it looked like it was covered with wax paper or confetti or little multi-colored candy sprinkles instead of film grain, he surely would have demanded retakes. Because he was making a film. Children of Paradise is a film. It doesn't entirely look like one on this new Blu-ray. That is all.

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triodelover
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#231 Post by triodelover » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:35 pm

Drucker wrote:There is a lotta silly to digest in your post, but the fact that this all came up with regards to Paradise and you possibly hadn't seen it before your own companies tools were used in a 4K scan really harm the leg you might be trying to stand on with this incident.
This is an excellent point. Not only is it apparent that he was unfamiliar with the film pre-restoration, there's no evidence in either of his lengthy posts that he's actually seen either the Criterion or Second Sight BDs, which is what everyone here is working from.

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Brian C
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#232 Post by Brian C » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:37 pm

I find pile-ons distasteful, but this guy really deserves it. He completely fails to engage any of the arguments that the actual experts in this thread are making, he makes a bunch of highly questionable statements that he can't possibly substantiate and even says in at least one case that he's unwilling to try (i.e., "I have seen MORE detail come out of an image using our tech than is lost – you don’t believe me and frankly I don’t care."), and he makes comparisons to defend himself that have no bearing on the actual topic at hand (e.g., Star Wars, Act of Valor). Furthermore, he shows no understanding of what film grain actually is beyond the very superficial aesthetic aspect of it (i.e., something that 'looks like film').

I'm not an expert, obviously, but I don't see where anything this guy says makes any sense at all, and to think that he has a role to play in preservation is frankly chilling. I hope that he's just a troll lying about who he is, a possibility that I don't reject outright but which seems too good to be probable.

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vsski
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#233 Post by vsski » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:39 pm

Arrgh! Why is the main argument folks are making here so hard to understand or considered inflammatory (even if some of the snide side comments may be).
At the heart of the issue all people are asking for is to preserve a film that was made 70 years ago as close as possible to its original look and keeping the grain structure intact goes a long way to achieving that effect.

We all know how difficult these restorations are and given the source material they can't be perfect, but the 4k restoration was a beauty and the opportunity to preserve it got squandered in the transfer, whether intentional or by using tools incorrectly. So people point this out and lament this fact.

No one knows what Carne would do today and whether he would use a Red to shoot his film. And I think we all agree that he would have liked better film stock and shooting conditions at the time he made the movie - again not the point here.
Just because technology moves ahead and things that couldn't be done 20 years ago are now possible doesn't justify altering the work done 20 years ago, especially if not done by the original author.

If I had a painting that needed restoration I certainly wouldn't want anyone to alter the brush strokes of the painter, even if said painter today paints entirely different.
Enough said.

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rspaight
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#234 Post by rspaight » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:43 pm

I am sure some of you will go off the handle about how crazy I am, egocentric, etc – be my guest. You will do so regardless of what I type here because you are the kind of person who looks for any human flaw regardless of how petty (spelling, for exmmaple) to make your point that only a barbarian could be behind the curtain. But a few of you will begin to understand that the force that guides this technology and the impact it is making is well beyond me or my company, it is a needed tool so cope. At some point we have to move on to cell phones from the ones plugged into the wall. We have to move on from horse draw carriages to cars. Fact is, the human race moves forward with or without the ones who sit and pout. If you spend all your time on a topic like film grain levels on one single film you will miss the big picture and the amazing things happening to the whole industry. I mean, I can take a 5D camera, a copy of Adobe Premium, my Dark Energy for After Effects, and I can cut a film that looks as amazing as anything in the theater next year. The stories are coming in floods and we need them to save us, and they will look terrific if people take the time to do them right. That excites me.
I have no idea what you can do with digital tools today has to do with how to present what Carne did with film 60 years ago.

It seems obvious that digital will replace film, just as cell phones are replacing land lines and cars replaced horse-drawn carriages. But that is utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand. De-graining Children of Paradise does not make it look like state-of-the-art digital video, it makes it look like film with the grain (and fine detail) wiped away. Photoshopping the cord off of a Princess phone won't make it look like a cell phone, either. They are fundamentally different things, superficial similarities of purpose notwithstanding.

Ishmael
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#235 Post by Ishmael » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:56 pm

Lance wrote:...blatant name calling is a larger reflection of poor form than bad spelling ever will be.
Lance wrote:I am sure some of you will go off the handle about how crazy I am, egocentric, etc – be my guest. You will do so regardless of what I type here because you are the kind of person who looks for any human flaw regardless of how petty (spelling, for exmmaple) to make your point that only a barbarian could be behind the curtain.

David M.
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#236 Post by David M. » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:28 pm

I'm not a technical expert. It's my understanding that some degree of grain removal/management is necessary in many (most? all?) cases,
No, not really. I've taken scans of a negative and sent them straight to NTSC DVD without degraining. BD can easily handle it.

Although for a more complicated case like Children of Paradise, grain management (nice euphemism?) is a way to level out the differences between the different film elements used. Although the grain was "managed" into almost nothing.

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tenia
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#237 Post by tenia » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:38 pm

Lance wrote:If you are that opposed, go work for those companies, become the restoration managers, then convince them and the film owners that the aged, dirty prints are the original artist’s intent
Nobody needs to be an electrician to complain when your electrical switches are not properly working even if it has been done by a professionnal electrician.

Moreover, I think that I can speak for everyone when saying that the original artist's intent does not lie in aged dirty prints, but with what's below it, which is celluloid, and with it, grain.

To do further than just removing the dust, dirt and wear of time is not restoring, it's revisioning.

So "removing grain, then working on it, then putting back the original grain or new grain" might be "a technique that works well if done right", I truly trust you on this. It's just not restoring. It's tweaking pictures. It's going far beyond the job of the companies that do restorations. As said above, it's assuming stuff, like assuming Da Vinci has been using a special paint without knowing it was bad, so if he would have known, he would have done it otherwise, so let's do it otherwise.

The restoration process should bring back the picture as it were at the time. Not less, not more.
You see, I'm not asking for much, in fact.

vsski explains it very well : having the tools that are very good to what they are done for doesn't mean that you need them at all.

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Gregory
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#238 Post by Gregory » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:04 pm

This all sounds completely reasonable to me: He has a destiny in film. He made a film that coincided with a cataclysmic historical event. He then created a tool, carving it by hand out of technological stone for 8 years until it was so perfect that it could overcome limitations imposed upon his predecessors, which they suffered under without even realizing it, unable to see the future beyond their lifetimes and their limited ideas of what is possible. As an ARTIST, he put the technology to work fulfilling the historical fate of these ancient works, "repurposing" them to belong to the future, a priceless gift to the race of humans, all as part of a plan so immense that no one person can fathom it.
Those who merely sit on the sidelines can never understand the greatness of this, but no matter. They will be crushed under the wheel of history. Anyone who does not understand the unseen force that guides this technology is a fool to question it. If you do not hear it when it speaks, then you cannot hope to even glimpse the glory of the future it will help to usher in. How much of this grand scheme can any of us hope to witness, 80 years, 90? Compared to the timeless expanse in which repurposed works exist, we are like the motes of dust that the Machine will sweep away into the ashcan of history, as progress continues, oblivious to any of our petty concerns about the past or the present.

This all sounds reasonable for someone working with devices with names like Dark Energy. Speculation: Cinnafilm's offices have rough-hewn stone walls and lots of dry ice and strange liquids bubbling through tubes and beakers. The townspeople won't go near the place, and rumors abound regarding the nocturnal activities of Cinnafilm's henchmen. Many of those who vocally opposed Cinnafilm's plans later mechanically say they approve and seem to have mysterious gaps in their memories of past dealings with the company. Lance was recently seen speaking to the daughter of the local tavern owner, who treated him with suspicion. He fixed his gaze upon her, she backed away slowly, shrieked, and then fainted dead away.

David M.
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#239 Post by David M. » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:10 pm

It can be summarized even more succinctly:

What's wrong with films looking like films?

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zedz
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#240 Post by zedz » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:27 pm

Gregory's elucidation rang a few bells, so I stuck Lance's big post through Google Translate and this is what came out:
Greetings, my friend. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future.

Artform
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#241 Post by Artform » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:10 pm

I've been reading CForum for years. Mr. Lance has compelled me to join with his long, drawn out, well spelled diatribe for the benefit of self promotion or should I say, product promotion. Quite frankly, I could care less about his tools. I could care less if the tools were a cauldron, a wand and few eyes of newts, as long as film looks like film and not a step or two away from a video game. Film that looks like film is part of the wonderful experience of watching a movie.

The Children of Paradise was one of my most anticipated upgrades. It is terribly disappointing to what has happened to it. I will refrain from buying the blu.

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PfR73
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#242 Post by PfR73 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:55 pm

Scientists are saying the future is going to be far more futuristic than they originally predicted.

David M.
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#243 Post by David M. » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:31 pm

Arguably, Ed Wood would have modelled the spaceship on a 3D workstation.

peerpee
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#244 Post by peerpee » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:51 pm

I have nothing else to add. Goodnight Vienna!

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Drucker
Your Future our Drucker
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#245 Post by Drucker » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:53 pm

david hare wrote:So are DVNR, color timing, Regrain and all the other software processes now occurring in a production environment in which no regard whatsoever is paid to original resources including prints?

I fear so, if you look at the growing number of fuckups this year alone - toll so far Bande a Part for Gaumont, Lola for Arte, and a particularly startling one the UK BD of the 62 Cape Fear which has totally removed grain for the first 90 minutes and then - poof! - the last m2ts file comes good for the remaining 30 minutes with the grain structure back and intact and a perfect picture. This one seems to have had the same tech falling asleep at the desk as Marnie. And more coming, especially if they're using Cinnafilm for their digital cleanups.
I don't remember the exact thread (I read, and re-read many oldie, goodie ones at work throughout the day!) but somewhere Nick says something to the effect of the prevalence and danger of how many new tools and gadgets there are for people helping bring our releases to life. Lance all but confirms, to me, our greatest fears. That literally one or two dudes and their opinion of how something probably should look somehow makes way to the end product.

All I can say is God bless the likes of James White! This Lance dude sounds like he's been hanging out with Rudy Martinez

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Lance
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#246 Post by Lance » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:41 pm

Good morning from the “Troll” (ok, so maybe I do or don’t deserve to be called that…)
I logged on this morning to see what exciting conversations were stirring in my absence. The first thing I did was re-read my post and I thought to myself, “Good grief, parts of this sound nasty!” What I thought had been an interesting, thought-provoking and clever/sarcastic response to defend my business reads to me now like a somewhat curt, facetious and defensive ramble. Embarrassingly enough, I sounded like the very people I went into business 8 years ago to defeat, and I don’t blame you for not taking me seriously or returning snarky comments.

I’d like to apologize for my personal retorts, broad assumptions, and poor handling of the discussion at hand. I used straw man arguments instead of addressing the problem head on. In fact, some of my comments were uncalled for and rude. Yes, a few of you thought it was fair to say some unkind things about me personally, but it is with this apology that I hope we can move forward in this discussion leaving personal rants/jabs in the past.

In an effort to understand more clearly, I’ve gone back to page one and re-read every post carefully end-to-end, trying my best to see the bigger picture of the serious and justifiable concerns at the center of this entire discussion. I truly appreciate reading your comments and agree that this issue needs to be addressed. In general the commentary on this thread has been more about the technology, the approaches, and the effects. Now able to read beyond what initially caused my defenses to rise, I have found this topic to be deeply intriguing, problematic and yes, in need of further discussion.

I then read Nick’s article, ‘Crimes against the Grain,’ which is extremely well articulated and without tech-bashing. Like some comments in this thread, the article has some technical points I would like to clarify; but overall – his concerns are valid on many levels. I would very much appreciate speaking with Nick directly to obtain a better understanding of his views and concerns, as it seems he really has a handle on this. With more knowledge under my belt, I can take real steps toward educating and informing those we work with, which in turn will ensure we are doing our best to maintain the integrity of the work at hand, which we can all agree is extremely important.

One final thing I hope to leave you all with today: Cinnafilm’s only goal is to make moving images look better. As with any technology, ours is ever-changing and constantly advancing toward a higher-quality outcome. Just as da Vinci experimented with his media, so shall we. Sometimes an idea works, sometimes it doesn’t. Thank goodness for the human ability to create, learn, and better the methods previously available.
Thank you for this enlightening discussion.
Lance

J M Powell
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#247 Post by J M Powell » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:31 pm

Now that's a class-act response. Nick, I hope you take him up on that offer.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#248 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:37 pm

Lance wrote:Thank you for this enlightening discussion.
Welcome to the Forum. ;~}

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tenia
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#249 Post by tenia » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:12 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:
Lance wrote:Thank you for this enlightening discussion.
Welcome to the Forum. ;~}
Sometimes, I think people think we're just a bunch of never-happy cry-babies when most of our concerns are fully motivated. :)
Glad to see that the discussion seems to take a positive turn.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 141 Children of Paradise

#250 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:28 am

tenia wrote:
Michael Kerpan wrote:
Lance wrote:Thank you for this enlightening discussion.
Welcome to the Forum. ;~}
Sometimes, I think people think we're just a bunch of never-happy cry-babies when most of our concerns are fully motivated. :)
Glad to see that the discussion seems to take a positive turn.
This was one of the nicest (maybe THE nicest) thread turnaround in all the years I've been here. ;~}

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