1038 Marriage Story

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knives
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#76 Post by knives » Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:39 am

And I'm saying that concern, desiring your family to be raised among a certain milieu with specific attitudes and cultural signifiers, is a universal one. To put it on the other shoe I have a friend from Savannah whose parents completely freaked out at the idea of him moving to Boston. Those parents put a ton of cachet in staying in Savannah.

Now, of course Georgia is a member of the first world and you sincerely mean first world as applying to the whole country rather than back handedly insulting the people of Des Moines. In such a case you can find examples as well. There's this great Belgian-Congolese film called Pieces of Identity that deals with a Congolese father who becomes nervous that having set his daughter to Belgium she will no longer desire to be like him, like his culture, and instead will have become Belgian. This is in essence the same issue you are describing in a purely third world context.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#77 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:59 pm

Again, the context of the film is too important to what I'm saying. Driver's fascination with New York is entirely to do with himself, not with his child, and he is projecting it onto his child. In the universe of the film, he could afford to live almost anywhere (there's a diversion about going to direct a play in Copenhagen with his family for six months, which is used by a divorce attorney as reasonable evidence that if he deems a place acceptable for his career aims then he doesn't mind moving his son there), which makes his refusal to budge on his son being a Los Angeles resident despite a ton of evidence that it's where he should be entirely about his privilege. The film attempts to muddy that by making him self made as a New York resident, coming from nothing to build something there, etc - but I'm of the mind that the future of a child should be decided based upon what's best for the child, not the parents. I realize that wanting your child to be raised in a certain cultural environment is a universal theme, but within this film it is something that both characters have a ton of luxury around being able to hash out without finances being a concern. Whereas, if someone of a lower income wanted to move cross-country or to emigrate to another area altogether, sometimes they just have to grin and bear living where they live, regardless of what they think the best environment for themselves or their child might be.

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domino harvey
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#78 Post by domino harvey » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:12 pm

Do you not think you are giving imagined lower income viewers remarkably little credit, as though they can’t enjoy anything not taking place in their own income bracket? I wonder which these imagined viewers would resent more: the elite city liberal making a film about his own world, or the other elite liberal telling them that they’re too poor to appreciate it?

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#79 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:25 pm

I saw this last night, in NY no less. Neither parent was wholly likable, they did or said things that made them both seem like real assholes (and I was a bit repulsed by some of those around them who shaped the way their divorce played out - only Alan Alda's character came off very likeable, a fellow divorcee who had been through it too many times). But that was to the film's credit, and with every divorce I've witnessed in real life, it's a process that tends to bring out the worst in people.

Driver's character started off as very likeable, but he became a real dick in very convincing fashion in how he slowly cracked as his divorce and ultimately his custody fight developed. It seemed pretty intentional and very clear early on that L.A. was going to be better for his son, mainly when Driver asks him. (His son's response is as sincere as it can get.) It became a running gag for L.A. locals to say that, but I think Alda understood that on a deeper level as well. The fact that Driver couldn't let go was completely understandable - it is selfish, but it's not an unusual selfishness, I've seen it played out in custody fights. It's really where we first see why he's getting divorced and how his ex-wife's grievances become truly convincing. Some of the changes he makes at the end - specifically about his career - is a promising sign that he's finally learning to shift his life around other people and to make the type of sacrifices that married couples should/need to make on both ends.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#80 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:54 pm

hearthesilence wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:25 pm
Neither parent was wholly likable, they did or said things that made them both seem like real assholes (and I was a bit repulsed by some of those around them who shaped the way their divorce played out - only Alan Alda's character came off very likeable, a fellow divorcee who had been through it too many times). But that was to the film's credit, and with every divorce I've witnessed in real life, it's a process that tends to bring out the worst in people.

Driver's character started off as very likeable, but he became a real dick in very convincing fashion in how he slowly cracked as his divorce and ultimately his custody fight developed. It seemed pretty intentional and very clear early on that L.A. was going to be better for his son, mainly when Driver asks him. (His son's response is as sincere as it can get.) It became a running gag for L.A. locals to say that, but I think Alda understood that on a deeper level as well. The fact that Driver couldn't let go was completely understandable - it is selfish, but it's not an unusual selfishness, I've seen it played out in custody fights. It's really where we first see why he's getting divorced and how his ex-wife's grievances become truly convincing. Some of the changes he makes at the end - specifically about his career - is a promising sign that he's finally learning to shift his life around other people and to make the type of sacrifices that married couples should/need to make on both ends.
The way neither parent is presented as wholly likeable is one aspect I really appreciated about the film, especially in the way it played out as you suggested. Right from the opening, with the letters highlighting each's positive qualities, I was full of admiration for certain select skills and qualities that I consider to be those of a 'good' partner/parent, often ones that signify a degree of patience, active listening, and others under the umbrella of selflessness and empathy, and including some that I wish I had developed more myself by now. That each parent is also shown to be flawed throughout the narrative is obviously important, but I would hesitate to put either of them into cozy boxes labeled "selfish" since they have already been established to have demonstrated the opposite qualities throughout their marriage too. The other significant piece to consider is that this is a crisis, and in crises people are not at their best, often naturally reverting into selfish protective modes when they are threatened or even just experiencing change. Now, it's made clear from how the narrative plays out that both parties exhibited behaviors contrary to active listening, patience, compromise, and validation during their marriage (and in the process of the divorce that we see), but they're human. This isn't an excuse it's a reality. I have no doubt that Driver really did love all the parts of being a dad that "nobody does" as his wife says, and was patient and an active listener to her at times, but he's also capable of being impatient and inflexible with his son, and engaging in a solipsistic lack of perspective-taking like the majority of people when not at their best. I think that anybody who wants to point the finger at these characters is kidding themselves, as who can honestly say that they have acted 100% in accordance with their own values and been behaviorally consistent, especially under pressure? I didn't particularly love the characters, and can see where some people are coming from in their distaste, but one credit to Baumbach is that he draws both partners as complex people with both likeable and unlikeable, empathetic and selfish qualities, human beings who every audience member may not want to befriend but it feels a bit harsh to pathologize them with labels based on their behaviors in crisis.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#81 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:11 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:12 pm
Do you not think you are giving imagined lower income viewers remarkably little credit, as though they can’t enjoy anything not taking place in their own income bracket? I wonder which these imagined viewers would resent more: the elite city liberal making a film about his own world, or the other elite liberal telling them that they’re too poor to appreciate it?
I even felt disconnected from the stakes in this film, and I've got a pretty high tolerance for that sort of thing (and am not lower income). There are some moments in the film that resonate universally, but they are far fewer and more far between than I expected. Stuff like the Halloween costume, the home visits, etc feel very lived in, but it's when the film wants the viewer to relate to characters' anxieties about the cost of things (flying multiple times a month, paying for the best lawyers money can buy, etc) that it becomes quite tone deaf. There were opportunities for the film to feel more universal without abandoning the truth behind Baumbach's intentions, and it doesn't do a very good job of towing that line. Just one man's opinion, man!

And yes, I agree with the last couple of posts. I began in Driver's corner, especially because Johansson commits what feels like a pretty unforgivable act (hiring a lawyer in the first place when it sounds like she may not even need to for what's been to that point a pretty amicable separation), but as the film moves on the way Driver is written makes him increasingly selfish and congealed. Maybe I just don't have the needed perspective of being a parent, but it seems as though putting your kid first shouldn't be as difficult as he made it seem, especially considering how he's framed as such a wonderful parent from the outset of the film (and then we never truly see evidence of that again).

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#82 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:25 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:11 pm
Maybe I just don't have the needed perspective of being a parent, but it seems as though putting your kid first shouldn't be as difficult as he made it seem, especially considering how he's framed as such a wonderful parent from the outset of the film (and then we never truly see evidence of that again).
I know what you mean, and I'm not a parent either, but I took this to be reactive based on his son's sudden resistance and disengagement from him as a parental figure. Not to say that I condone his attitude, but I can only imagine what it's like to continue to fly out grasping at straws to keep one's relationship to their son alive, only to be continuously rebuffed. This isn't the kid's fault, but it's a new experience to Driver and it's another crisis of the changing dynamics he wasn't expecting from the move. You're right that we don't get to see him playing with his son in the same way (he even rebuffs the son when he finally makes an offering by asking Driver to play! Indicating perhaps repressed resentment, the selfish rabbit hole of being worn down by a displacement from comfortable roles and setting?) but Driver does little things that subtly speak to his investment in parenting, like challenging his son to continue on with the reading work, even while a watchful eye is present, rather than being the laid back cool fun dad (a common default under the circumstances, especially in divorce) and in the end we see that his son is more confident in reading. I see that as evidence of being a good parent but not necessarily in the surface-level loving way that he is presented as when the dynamics were comfortable in the prologue.

Having said all that, I don't relate to Driver much either. Baumbach has always been most talented at drawing complex characters that aren't too likeable with a degree of ambiguity and authenticity that causes re-contextualization of judgment and produces insight into our own patterns of thought and values. Oddly enough, this is one of his more sympathetic portraits of said characters, and yet the directness with which he tackles the material put me off to both central personalities. I prefer the ambiguity and restraint of Margot at the Wedding, and really most of the non-Gerwig scripted film, over this any day; and like the characters a whole lot more even if some of them are written with less in-your-face evidence in their corners for sympathy. I don’t know why.. maybe I prefer to draw my own conclusions on their strengths and weaknesses embedded in the questionable behaviors, or maybe this allows me to analyze myself and others through the cracks of the relativist position on judgment, or maybe I’m just odd.
Last edited by therewillbeblus on Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#83 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:41 pm

Probably worth stating that my value judgment of Driver's character has nothing to do with my value judgment of this film, which is mediocre in my view on its own merit. In case those have become entangled in the way I'm talking about it here.

Anyway, yes therewillbeblus, it is relatable but unusual to me that he might not realize that by flying back out he isn't always going to get a loving son performance from his son. Also telling that he gets a place to live (at the recommendation of a lawyer, no less, not because of an actual effort to improve his connection), and things with his son seem to immediately improve. Surely Driver understands by the end of the film that his approach earlier on made no sense, but boy is he a frustrating figure to watch navigate the relationships in his life. If he truly had no options and no mobility (and this goes back to the issues with class that the film sort of ignores), it would be one thing, but the fact that he can just relocate (even if just for a while) for the benefit of his son and chooses not to for a good long time out of spite is so strange for me to connect to. You'd think the first thing he'd want to do is be close to his son, above all professional and even artistic concerns. It's not as though Johansson's family all lives in Montana. He can find representation and good paying work and be with his son and smooth out the rough edges of his divorce in an instant - few people in similar circumstances are so lucky. In fact, I detected literally one line of dialogue, from Alda, that acknowledges how easy these characters have it in this situation versus the vast majority of the population.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#84 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:25 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:41 pm
Probably worth stating that my value judgment of Driver's character has nothing to do with my value judgment of this film, which is mediocre in my view on its own merit. In case those have become entangled in the way I'm talking about it here.
Nope, I don't think they've become entangled at all! I also rank the film towards the bottom of Baumbach's filmography, though I think I liked it more than you, for reasons entirely separate to the judgment of Driver's character, but (as I added in an edit in my last comment) partly because of the way his character is handled by the material to be complex but too clearly-defined to be that interesting or be reflected back to cause an internal philosophical stir in the viewer.
mfunk9786 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:41 pm
Surely Driver understands by the end of the film that his approach earlier on made no sense, but boy is he a frustrating figure to watch navigate the relationships in his life. If he truly had no options and no mobility (and this goes back to the issues with class that the film sort of ignores), it would be one thing, but the fact that he can just relocate (even if just for a while) for the benefit of his son and chooses not to for a good long time out of spite is so strange for me to connect to. You'd think the first thing he'd want to do is be close to his son, above all professional and even artistic concerns. It's not as though Johansson's family all lives in Montana. He can find representation and good paying work and be with his son and smooth out the rough edges of his divorce in an instant - few people in similar circumstances are so lucky. In fact, I detected literally one line of dialogue, from Alda, that acknowledges how easy these characters have it in this situation versus the vast majority of the population.
Despite my opinion that Driver holding onto the ideals in his life is a somewhat natural response in situations where deep-rooted family dynamics are destroyed, I agree with you that this circumstance revealed his egocentricity straight into plain sight and made the experience of watching the film challenging because it's so reliant on prioritizing a direct behaviorist approach which overshadows less clear emotional space. This goes back to my conflicting feelings on the film being ill-suited for Baumbach's ambiguity when the material demands a directness. I can't say that it would be more authentic to remain somewhat morally distanced but when the script hinges on amplifying behavioral observation it's hard for Baumbach to do what he does best with his characters, even if he is clearly trying.

That's why the best part of the film for me is a testament to Baumbach's direction (and Driver's performance) rather than his writing: Driver's first reaction in the mother's kitchen to being served. It's one of the best-directed scenes of Baumbach's career that consolidates all of his skills normally exhibited through writing into one brutally subtle yet powerful moment that's all visual (aside from one wonderful abstract line following the reaction, that perfectly summarizes the authenticity of this nonverbal experience).

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#85 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:15 pm

I thought if anything shone through here, it was Baumbach's comedic sensibilities. The scene with the counselor visiting Driver's apartment to observe he and his son having dinner, up through its unexpected and borderline macabre conclusion, was really well done. Although,
SpoilerShow
Why wouldn't he have covered the hole he punched in the wall? ((cue Barenaked Ladies melody)) Sure, it makes for a decent enough punchline, if it weren't for my immediately questioning why he didn't hang a frame there.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#86 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:35 pm

I can see that, though I saw this as another byproduct of his direction shining through this film more than his writing, and a different kind of comedy. I think Baumbach has been funnier through rough, darkly humorous dialogue in prior films but here he plays with comic timing and social gags using a different tool of implementing silence, keeping to that visual bite like the dramatic scene I described before. Much of the effectiveness in the observation scene is credited to Martha Kelly’s performance and natural skill at utilizing flat affect for dry comedy, and she makes it rather easy for Driver to respond to her behavior in any number of ways and be funny through an established awkwardness initiated by, and revolving around, her. Baumbach deserves some credit for directing this kind of visual situational humor throughout the film, especially in his editing, even if I still prefer the murkier humor that sneaks up on you when he directs performances more connected to the page that are extremely hilarious and sad simultaneously and less expected or straightforward.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#87 Post by nitin » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:18 pm

mfunk, as someone who knows quite a few people that have divorced, I can assure you it’s a process in which logical thought goes out the window, if not at the start then definitely at some point during the process. And people also become stuck on one thing they won’t budge on (a pet, a couch or in one instance a fucking pot plant), and selfishly putting themselves ahead of any kids or the other partner, which to an outsider can come across as maddeningly irrational, but too many people do it far too often for it not to be a relatable thing.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#88 Post by MichaelB » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:48 am

I’ve never been divorced, but my wife has been, so I’m greatly looking forward to watching it with her.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#89 Post by hearthesilence » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:02 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:48 am
I’ve never been divorced, but my wife has been, so I’m greatly looking forward to watching it with her.
I watched it with two divorcees - it made for interesting conversations afterwards, but they definitely saw their own divorces play out in the film (at least their dealing with lawyers, we didn't talk too much about the more personal details).


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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#91 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:56 pm

I’m not surprised given the behavioral approach that doesn’t really give himself an ‘out’ here, much of which has been highlighted by mfunk’s points. Plus I was moved by the way the perspective switches gears by the end to provide a clearer validation to her side, and I’d imagine Leigh appreciated that.

The biggest takeaway of the article for me was the (probably already known) information that Baumbach and Gerwig are co-writing a live-action Barbie film, and I suddenly find myself drawn to Noah Hawley’s Star Trek.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#92 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:01 am

Probably worth noting that these are Baumbach's words, not Leigh's

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#93 Post by Drucker » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:27 am

Saw this tonight and thought it sensational. The nearly two and a half hours absolutely fly by, which I think is a testament to just how compelling the drama is. This is only the second Baumbach film I've seen, and fortunately the other is his debut Kicking and Screaming a few weeks ago. Funny to watch them back to back and see how similar they are in many respects. The opening party in K&S felt so similar to the cast party that occurs early on in this film. Baumbach still lets his camera linger on spaces as characters go in and out. But it's all done...way better than in his debut. My two cents is that he's still trying to make some annoying characters still (see: Johansen's mom) but they are more confident and better fleshed out than in his debut.

On its own merits I found the film just completely riveting. There are moments that make you want to cry, some funny moments, and some really painful ones. It's clear the circumstances get away from the characters, and to me far more important than "accurately depicting divorce" is the fact that the film allows you to side with both characters quite easily. You feel Driver's pain as he sits in a room with Alda, realizing that a continent is likely going to separate him from his kid and there's really nothing he can do about it. By the time you've made up your mind to even ask for a divorce, so many things are already out of your hand. Decisions and actions you've made or are planning to make have already influenced future events that aren't even happening yet. In plenty of movies there are times when an early decision, item, or clue ends up having a bigger meaning later on. It happens here, and we keep returning to it, and it's an incredibly effective storytelling device.
SpoilerShow
If only Driver hadn't let them go to LA
.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#94 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:26 am

Drucker wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:27 am
SpoilerShow
If only Driver hadn't let them go to LA
.
Which (the act of holding the position of “letting”/allowing) would have proven his controlling selfishness definitively without complexity if that had occurred. So while we may feel like slapping our foreheads in hindsight, if he didn’t “let” them go he’d have been almost impossible to root for and to weigh his selfless vs selfless characteristics. Then we’d have another movie about a victimized woman in a controlling marriage/divorce, with a clear hero and maybe an easier film to digest ripe with oscar bait but nowhere near as good.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#95 Post by Red Screamer » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:36 pm

Des Moines native here, though I saw the film in Iowa City which, I take no pleasure in reporting, might have the highest density of New Yorker totes in the world (sorry mfunk, I couldn't resist). I think mfunk and the other people I've seen roll their eyes at this online are bending over backwards to talk about the material stakes of the film while ignoring the fundamental emotional and poetic stakes at play. If we can be moved by Byron or by My Dinner With Andre, why not this? To the contrary, one of the things I appreciated about Marriage Story was that it avoided sentimentalizing New York or Los Angeles the way other similar movies might (which can alienate me somewhat as someone with no real attachment to either). Instead, the two cities are important for their associations with Driver's/Johansson's work and personal history, though the importance of the latter is shown to be over-determined by their lawyers, and for the different ways the family interacts with them (walking vs. "space") more than for either being or not being the center of the world. And the movie is also more self-aware than these critics give it credit for: the couple's court appearance is cut short because the judge says there are other, more pressing cases pertaining to people without the means to hire such skillfully longwinded lawyers.

Anyway, I thought this was great and was really impressed by Baumbach's tonal mastery in particular. There's a slapstick energy to much of the movie, but it stems from a place of pain and from the characters trying to cover up that pain, which makes it both more funny and more emotionally cutting than the dour version of this premise that many reviews seem to be describing. I did find myself asking, though, how much of the film's constricted focus is part of a poetic simplicity and how much of it is just plain limited? Several scenes end right as they hit their most powerful note (Driver's song, for instance) and there were times I couldn't tell if it was the TV approach, for lack of a better term, of ending a scene once it makes its "point" or if it was a bold directness on Baumbach's part. Or both.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#96 Post by Persona » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:34 pm

I think the film even acknowledges that this is very first-world, bougie problems, like when the judge calls that out and Charlie looks over his shoulder at the people waiting in the courtroom.

At the same time, they say "write what you know" and it's hard not to think Baumbach pulled a lot from his divorce from Jennifer Jason Leigh and their son. As such, I think the emotion and the thought of the film is coming from a very real, personal place from Baumback, but he never wallows or induldges himself too much, he balances the humor and the emotion in a very skilled way, and overall it's just an incredibly effective film, maybe in due large part to the performances but also I think the directing and editing is very specific and potent here.

As a piece of writing, the Kramer vs. Kramer dynamic is maybe not as interesting as some of the core stories of his other work... but it does have an impact to it, and his stuff has always had a specificity that might sacrifice some relatability for it feeling like lived-in scenarios. That said, I think there is enough thematically here about how culturally and systematically we are pushed towards conflict and selfishness, and how difficult it is to hold on to basic human decency in relationships that become at odds.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#97 Post by Persona » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:37 pm

Also, if Charlie is something of a stand-in for Baumbach, it's meritable that it's not an overly gracious self-portrait, especially as the film goes on. We feel for Charlie, even as we come to realize why Nicole is doing what she's doing and that Charlie is very much a narcissistic arsehole.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#98 Post by Red Screamer » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:09 pm

An insightful review from Richard Brody, though I disagree with his final remarks which basically ask for a different kind of movie.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#99 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:17 pm

Red Screamer wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:09 pm
An insightful review from Richard Brody, though I disagree with his final remarks which basically ask for a different kind of movie.
That’s also where “Marriage Story” reveals its limitations. Baumbach’s canny and intricate construction of the film’s action and dialogue makes “Marriage Story” his most developed and original film. But he doesn’t risk breaking his own frames to acknowledge the offscreen dramas, the lives behind the characters, and what his movie implies for them. Charlie is presented as a dramatist who makes use of his and Nicole’s private life in his own work; the implications are nowhere in the movie. It’s that opacity to itself that blocks the way for “Marriage Story” to the summit of cinematic achievement.
Unless I'm reading this wrong: Is he asking for like, documentary-style talking heads with Baumbach and Leigh? Sure, Nicole brings this up in the film, but I think she was primarily just expressing her frustration for a lack of recognition she receives for her own wit being processed and regurgitated by Charlie during the course of his creative endeavors. The implications are a good portion of what sours the marriage, not entirely certain what Brody means by those not being represented onscreen unless he's referring to the real life people the characters are loosely based upon.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#100 Post by Persona » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:52 pm

It could be that Baumbach would even agree with Brody's criticism, as Nicole tells Charlie she was warned that Charlie is too selfish to be a great artist.

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