1073 Memories of Murder

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
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deathbird
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#51 Post by deathbird » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:17 am

Memories of a Blue Sky

I'd kill people too if I lived in a world that looked like episode 5 of The Dekalog

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feihong
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#52 Post by feihong » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:26 am

The more I look at the DVDbeaver screencaps, and at that Curzon trailer, which does look like it's that same color grading, the more frustrating this is. This can't be how this movie was originally intended to look. And I'm not talking about whatever whim may or may not have flitted through the director's mind one day, 20 years ago; I'm talking about the film they shot and graded at the time. The trailer and these screencaps look entirely too dark. Characters in the background disappear entirely into shadow. The highlights never come close to reaching white––the brightest they get is a slate grey. It's hard to watch that trailer. Even in the daytime shots, the image is bleak, dour, and hard to make out. It's like trying to read by candlelight. Why do a 4k restoration, only to achieve this? I guess I've sort of accepted that the people who operate these restoration labs are all lunatics, but I think that after this and the WKW boxset, the people at Criterion have to be lumped in there, as well. How unacceptable does a transfer have to be, before they reject it? It begins to seem as if there is no floor in terms of quality control.

And when the inevitable advocate for directors' weird whims jumps on here, I need to reiterate from posts months ago: this is a movie about
SpoilerShow
a killer who perhaps kills in part because his victims are wearing
the color red. How can you nullify that color completely and then expect us to take your restoration seriously? This could not at all have been what the filmmakers intended when they made the film. And this transfer looks like a nightmare.

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#53 Post by yoloswegmaster » Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:25 am

Why is it that no one on here was blaming Arrow for releasing their revisionist version of 'Cruising' (and correctly lay the fault on Friedkin), but then be okay with blaming Criterion for a restoration that they never performed?

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Big Ben
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#54 Post by Big Ben » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:52 am

yoloswegmaster wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:25 am
....but then be okay with blaming Criterion for a restoration that they never performed?
Worth pointing out that both Bong Joon Ho and the cinematographer Kim Hyung Ku oversaw the Criterion disc. I'm not a fan of revisionism either but at some point I think this restoration has gone by/through too many people to be an accident. After all this time and effort you'd have to try really hard to convince me that this isn't entirely intentional for better or for worse. Brian had one of the best posts in the thread earlier about this and I really just think the cavalier attitude is something that might just be more common than we realize.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#55 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:00 am

I am certain this botched version was intentional on the part of Bong and his team and the restorers. Criterion's only "fault" is to move ahead with the project once it became clear the results were so bad.

(I'm close to giving up on Bong -- after years of great admiration and affection).

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The Fanciful Norwegian
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#56 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:03 pm

In light of some recent discussion about Happy Together—where all of the home video transfers except the very earliest (and the bonus alternate cut on the Japanese Blu-ray) look completely different from the theatrical prints because they were derived from earlier-generation elements missing various manipulations made at a later stage—I'm wondering if something similar happened here, with the earlier transfers being made from an "unmanipulated" source that wasn't graded in line with the theatrical prints. (I actually saw this theatrically when it was new but don't recall in the slightest any specifics of the color scheme; unfortunately when a theater here did a Bong retrospective a couple of years back, they ended up projecting it off the Korean Blu-ray, since the only print they could find was in Korea and it wasn't viable to have it flown in.) I'm not defending the actual grading here, but the existence of a contemporaneous trailer with roughly the same look raises the possibility that something is going on other than Bong and Kim doing a complete overhaul just for the hell of it.

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hearthesilence
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#57 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:13 pm

feihong wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:41 pm
I believe the CJ Entertainment blu ray is still in print.

https://www.yesasia.com/us/memories-of- ... info.html
Kind of horrible that Criterion is fine with passing this stuff off on us. This can't be some "original vision" for the movie.
Thanks!

FWIW, it's part of a "buy 3 get 1 free" deal, and it's eligible for free international shipping. I wonder if it's worth doing a group buy just to help reduce the cost? It still won't be a cheap BD, but at least it won't be $40+ USD.

EDIT: I made a mistake - while it's buy 3 get 1 free, they don't mean one of the Blu-rays is free, they mean they give you a free DVD from a selection of 10 in addition to the 3 you buy. I've never heard of any of the ten giveaway titles.
Last edited by hearthesilence on Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hearthesilence
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#58 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:21 pm

EDIT
Last edited by hearthesilence on Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#59 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:58 pm

If that's what the theatrical prints actually looked like, they looked a lot worse than the DVD. So it's a loss of points for Bong either way, in my book.

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hearthesilence
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#60 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:25 pm

yoloswegmaster wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:46 pm
Interesting find from the blu forums, a trailer that was uploaded on Youtube from 2007 that features similar color grading to the new restoration.
It's really tough to say because it simply looks like a really horrible and dated transfer. The black background for the title cards don't even look good, nor do the subtitles.

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hearthesilence
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#61 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:26 pm

hearthesilence wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:13 pm
feihong wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:41 pm
I believe the CJ Entertainment blu ray is still in print.

https://www.yesasia.com/us/memories-of- ... info.html
Kind of horrible that Criterion is fine with passing this stuff off on us. This can't be some "original vision" for the movie.
Thanks!

FWIW, it's part of a "buy 3 get 1 free" deal, and it's eligible for free international shipping. I wonder if it's worth doing a group buy just to help reduce the cost? It still won't be a cheap BD, but at least it won't be $40+ USD.
I think I'm going to go for this. I have one taker on this and just need one more. Anyone?

EDIT: I made a mistake - while it's buy 3 get 1 free, they don't mean one of the Blu-rays is free, they mean they give you a free DVD from a selection of 10 in addition to the 3 you buy. I've never heard of any of the ten giveaway titles.

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The Fanciful Norwegian
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#62 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:35 pm

On a hunch I did some googling, and it appears the movie originally underwent a bleach bypass; according to this the process is discussed in the supplements on the 2018 French Blu-ray (which I believe was the first release of this restoration). The English abstract of this Korean-language academic paper says it was also pull-processed. Both of these techniques combined would definitely produce a result more like the heavy desaturation and crushed blacks on the 4K than the brighter image of the previous transfers. (An analogy might be the Italian Blu-ray of Seven, which apparently wasn't graded to approximate the bleach-bypassed look of the early theatrical prints and as such has a more conventional, lower-contrast appearance than the Fincher-approved transfers.) The heavy green tint on the 4K is a different matter, though as I recall that look was relatively trendy in the early aughts.

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Finch
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#63 Post by Finch » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:08 pm

What I find odd is that if the red color was so crucial to the original grading of the film (do we know for sure it was for Bong?), and Bong then decided he also really liked the green tint during the grade of the 4k, why they couldn't have created a mask for the red colored objects in the frame and retained at least the reds from the original grade?

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feihong
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#64 Post by feihong » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:15 am

Sorry, posted w/out spoiler tags for a second...
Last edited by feihong on Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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feihong
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#65 Post by feihong » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:17 am

I think the main reason to suspect that the red is crucial to Bong's mis-en-scene is that the detectives determine that
SpoilerShow
the killer picks out girls wearing red.
They try to lure the killer out
SpoilerShow
with a police woman dressed in red.
SpoilerShow
When they find the eyewitness, they see a red piece of clothing hanging from her laundry line––and that reveal cements for them that this is a woman attacked by the killer, not by someone else.
And then there is the scene where the detective from Seoul arrives. He walks by what looks like a scarecrow, which I think is a marker for the first body discovered, dressed in red cloth. The camera lingers on this marker, keeping it in focus as the detective walks into that focal envelope. There is writing on the figure, but it's hardly distinct. I think the purpose of the shot is to foreground the red color,
SpoilerShow
which the detective begins to suspect is a trigger for the killer.
In other words, the plot involves a whole bunch of red objects being centered as clues. I don't know why Bong the writer would give Bong the director all these pointed scenes where characters recognize the color red, without calling attention to it with dialogue, and then have the detectives take these red items for clues, if you couldn't tell for sure that they are colored red. In the script at least, the red is crucial, but I think the scenes are directed in a way that makes it crucial that you recognize them as red tones, as well.

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swo17
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#66 Post by swo17 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:31 am

I mean, I can still tell in the new restoration that the red things are red

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Big Ben
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#67 Post by Big Ben » Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:23 am

I realize people's perceptions of colors can obviously vary but I'm not really having any issues perceiving the color red either. And when I say I'm perceiving it as red I mean red red. I don't really like the way this version looks over the previous looking one but I suppose at some level I'm impartial because I have not had the privilege of being able to see this film before this release.

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Boosmahn
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#68 Post by Boosmahn » Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:36 am

The Fanciful Norwegian wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:35 pm
On a hunch I did some googling, and it appears the movie originally underwent a bleach bypass; according to this the process is discussed in the supplements on the 2018 French Blu-ray (which I believe was the first release of this restoration). The English abstract of this Korean-language academic paper says it was also pull-processed. Both of these techniques combined would definitely produce a result more like the heavy desaturation and crushed blacks on the 4K than the brighter image of the previous transfers.
Thanks for this informative post!

It seems the situation is more complicated than a case of straightforward revisionism. This is speculation on my part: maybe Bong wanted some contrast, but not to the level seen in the Korean Blu-ray/DVD, and is now doubling down on the grittier look?

And what about this trailer from 2017 that lies somewhere in the middle of these two gradings? Note the shot of the scarecrow(?) at 0:37, which is darker than the high-contrast version but less green than the new one.

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andyli
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#69 Post by andyli » Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:51 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:I am certain this botched version was intentional on the part of Bong and his team and the restorers. Criterion's only "fault" is to move ahead with the project once it became clear the results were so bad.

(I'm close to giving up on Bong -- after years of great admiration and affection).
I seriously doubt Criterion did not know the results when they first made plans to release this film. As people have already pointed out in this thread, the restoration is at least three years old and has at least two prior releases on disc. The transfer was not "botched" yesterday.

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tenia
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#70 Post by tenia » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:46 am

It's nothing new though. While Arrow had their share of stuff they had to release as is while they're otherwise rather OK having a hands-on approach on gradings, Criterion's motto is the other way around.
And in some ways, it's understandable : it shouldn't be their job to have the restoration right, but the lab's one. To each its own job and area of responsabilities. For instance, when Shout and Criterion tried to color correct the Bruce Lee movies, which references did they use since they managee to end up with 2 different results ?
Big Ben wrote:I realize people's perceptions of colors can obviously vary but I'm not really having any issues perceiving the color red either. And when I say I'm perceiving it as red I mean red red. I don't really like the way this version looks over the previous looking one but I suppose at some level I'm impartial because I have not had the privilege of being able to see this film before this release.
Same for me. It was probably at least 15 years since I last saw the movie when I watched the new restoration through the French BD and I had no visual issue seeing these red clues as red. It maybe should be a different red, but it still didn't bother me at all nor prevented to get the clues. They're still there, they're still visible, they're still crucial to the plot.

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Pavel
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#71 Post by Pavel » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:13 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:00 am
I am certain this botched version was intentional on the part of Bong and his team and the restorers. Criterion's only "fault" is to move ahead with the project once it became clear the results were so bad.

(I'm close to giving up on Bong -- after years of great admiration and affection).
If I were in charge of Criterion, there's no way I wouldn't move ahead with the project and I don't blame them for doing so. Choosing not to release a guaranteed seller by one of the most popular and well-liked directors right now (I think this was announced right when Parasite won BP) because of revisionist color grading that won't bother most of the customers is a stupid financial decision. And it's not like they sold out or betrayed their mission statement, since this is what the director now wants. If someone is to blame, it's clearly Bong.
(I sort of like how certain images look — particularly the grey-ish ones that now look darker — but the shots with the bright yellow fields have definitely lost a lot of power.)

Calvin
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#72 Post by Calvin » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:22 am

yoloswegmaster wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:25 am
Why is it that no one on here was blaming Arrow for releasing their revisionist version of 'Cruising' (and correctly lay the fault on Friedkin), but then be okay with blaming Criterion for a restoration that they never performed?
Friedkin's involvement was integral to Arrow being able to licence Cruising from Warner, so they were probably never in a position to stop Friedkin - other than not releasing it at all.

I think there are other examples as well, but Arrow have shown willingness to perform their own colour correction of 'Ritrovata-ed' restorations even when they have been approved by the directors - see The Tree of Wooden Clogs. Criterion released the restoration as is. Arrow also offered the option to watch Michael Mann's Thief in its original theatrical cut with original colour timing.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#73 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:12 am

Pavel -- that's why I put "fault" in quotation marks. I don't blame them for releasing this. I just won't be buying it myself.

Calvin
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#74 Post by Calvin » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:17 am

With the caveat that these are not exact matches, a comparison of these screencaps of the Criterion release (via Blu-Ray.com) and the French La Rabbia (via Caps-a-Holic) suggests that despite being sourced from the same restoration the Criterion has more of a green push.

Image
Image

ford
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#75 Post by ford » Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:32 pm

When I read people freaking out, I figured it was an overreaction to a stylistic choice -- or a misunderstanding (like the supposed "blue push" of Criterion's BULL DURHAM which, from everything I've read, is much closer to the original late 1980s release than the old blu-ray). But my god this looks hideous. One of my favorite films too. Just cancelled my Criterion pre-order, sadly.

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