1073 Memories of Murder

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#76 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:43 pm

This will surely read as a blasphemous statement to many on this board, but the tweaks made to this release are more upsetting to me than the WKW set controversy

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soundchaser
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#77 Post by soundchaser » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:00 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:43 pm
This will surely read as a blasphemous statement to many on this board, but the tweaks made to this release are more upsetting to me than the WKW set controversy
Oh, it’s all bad. But I think it’s understandable given that it’s just the color timing (as opposed to aspect ratio, lines of dialogue, etc.) and that it’s one film as opposed to an entire mountain of them.

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senseabove
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#78 Post by senseabove » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:07 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:43 pm
This will surely read as a blasphemous statement to many on this board, but the tweaks made to this release are more upsetting to me than the WKW set controversy
Image

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#79 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:20 pm

This is certainly colored by my fondness for this film (still far and away Bong's best), and one of the films I've personally been waiting longest for a region A blu for since it blew my mind in a college film class (coincidentally this, Fallen Angels, and, at the time to a lesser degree, Chungking Express were the films that inspired me to look beyond French New Wave into other modern foreign cinema- all three butchered this year by the same company). Of all of them though, Memories of Murder is the film that I have the specifics of the look of it, particularly the color scheme, branded into my memory still from almost 15 years ago. The sunny skies contrasted with the dark interiors, the use of red (yes, we can all tell that it's still red, but are we really setting the bar at it being literally the same color now that the WKW set has come out?) which doesn't pop in the darkness the way it did on the DVD- and oh man, that first nighttime killer(?) scene with the red contrasting in the dreary rain is a flashbulb memory of ironic and stomach-churning haunting beauty that sobered me up to the possibilities of foreign cinema (I still recall my thought in class at 18 years old, in the instant of watching that scene, that this was besting Zodiac in every way- a film which I loved already), a feeling that the stills of that image on the Criterion just don't produce. But yes, it's definitely red so I should probably fugetaboutit. Anyways, it's a subjective assessment (surely the WKW soiling is more objectively detrimental) but while visual alterations aren't usually what sticks out for me most in a film, this is the film where they intensely impact the feelings and thematic weight of the film for me.

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Big Ben
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#80 Post by Big Ben » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:10 pm

Memories is just the thing though. I don't have any of those memories because I was much too young to see this when it came out initially and so my first viewing of this will the film looking this way. Am I wrong to not be as perturbed by this as others? I certainly don't feel that angry about this but I'm certainly receptive to why others feel that way. There is no "before" for me. Same applies to the WKW stuff. It certainly looks inferior to me but that's about all the emotional stakes I have in this endeavor.

I'm not defending revisionism but am sort of acknowledging, begrudgingly a sobering point. This won't be the last movie to have the way it looks changed. And more importantly acknowledging the very real reality of how powerless we really are to do anything about it. Particularly if the film community at large just readily accepts the changes especially if they have no emotional connection to the way a film looked decades past. Now that's distressing.

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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#81 Post by swo17 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:17 pm

Should I change this thread title to "Memories of Redrum" or am I not allowed to do that anymore?

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hearthesilence
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#82 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:27 pm

ford wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:32 pm
...a misunderstanding (like the supposed "blue push" of Criterion's BULL DURHAM which, from everything I've read, is much closer to the original late 1980s release than the old blu-ray)...
I have my doubts about that. I've seen it projected (and probably way too many times on TV), and I've even been to a Durham Bulls game - the team colors are essentially a built-in color guide, and any sports fan will be sensitive to their favorite team's uniform colors. I've never seen the movie deviate from the Bulls' shade of blue until Criterion's BD, which is a shade closer to the Miami Marlins.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#83 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:52 pm

Big Ben wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:10 pm
Memories is just the thing though. I don't have any of those memories because I was much too young to see this when it came out initially and so my first viewing of this will the film looking this way. Am I wrong to not be as perturbed by this as others? I certainly don't feel that angry about this but I'm certainly receptive to why others feel that way. There is no "before" for me. Same applies to the WKW stuff. It certainly looks inferior to me but that's about all the emotional stakes I have in this endeavor.

I'm not defending revisionism but am sort of acknowledging, begrudgingly a sobering point. This won't be the last movie to have the way it looks changed. And more importantly acknowledging the very real reality of how powerless we really are to do anything about it. Particularly if the film community at large just readily accepts the changes especially if they have no emotional connection to the way a film looked decades past. Now that's distressing.
As a pretty vocal advocate for the value of relativist experience and believer in subjective realities, I definitely hear your point. My main issue is subjective but my point is also that, using this example, if the red doesn't pop in the same way or if the night v day scenes aren't so starkly contrasted, that specific bolded experience that visually emphasized a novel core theme of merging disgust and deviance with radiance, as if bringing us closer to the mesmerized hypnosis of the killer or the ironic conditions of the detectives, will likely be muted even if we wind up liking the movie the same. To use an extreme example- people have seen Greed in its existent form of frozen stills connecting the narrative, and still wind up declaring it a masterpiece, but even if some critics consider it their favorite film, there's no way in hell they are getting the same experience that those who saw the film as one comprehensive movement did.

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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#84 Post by Calvin » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:04 am

Screencap comparison between the Criterion and UK Artificial Eye Blu-Rays

The green push applied to the Criterion does seem to be fairly uniform rather than timed shot by shot. Additionally, while the booklet may contain more information, Criterion advertises the restoration as having been supervised by Bong rather than their individual transfer. Given that all the other releases sourced from the same restoration look different to the Criterion, I wonder if something simply went wrong with their own transfer.

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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#85 Post by criterionsnob » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:00 am

10 Things I Learned: Memories of Murder
Bong wanted to accentuate the somber mood of the film by maintaining a costume and set-dressing palette that was devoid of most primary colors (aside from the occasional red, as with the clothing of the initial victims). In addition, he and cinematographer Kim Hyung Ku decided to print most of Memories of Murder using a “bleach bypass” process, in which the regular bleaching step of film processing is skipped, thus allowing color dyes to be retained in the emulsion and creating a more desaturated image. Only the opening and closing scenes, set among the amber rice fields, were processed normally, so the golden hues could be showcased.

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Der Spieler
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#86 Post by Der Spieler » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:50 am

Comparisons are up at Caps-a-holic. The Criterion looks even worse than I imagined. Yikes.

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andyli
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#87 Post by andyli » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:07 am

Yes it looks perceivably greener than the French release. Either Bong further tweaked it for Criterion or something went seriously wrong.

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tenia
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#88 Post by tenia » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:18 pm

It's getting hard to understand exactly what happened, both now and during the 4K restoration process.

It's clear that the Criterion and French releases are sourced from the same 4K restoration, with both claiming a Bong supervision (only Criterion also claims a DoP supervision). It's hard to understand why he would be OK with something in 2017-18 but not anymore in 2020.
There also is a report on DVD Classik from someone who saw the movie in Korea in 2019 and who says it looked rather like the Korean BD.
Finally, going by the 10 Things I Learned bit, neither the French or Criterion BDs are really showcasing golden hues. Comparing the Korean BD with the Criterion one especially is quite jarring in this regard.

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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#89 Post by Calvin » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:22 pm

tenia wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:18 pm
It's getting hard to understand exactly what happened, both now and during the 4K restoration process.

It's clear that the Criterion and French releases are sourced from the same 4K restoration, with both claiming a Bong supervision (only Criterion also claims a DoP supervision). It's hard to understand why he would be OK with something in 2017-18 but not anymore in 2020.
Criterion say that the restoration was supervised, they don't make any claims about their transfer - unless there's more info with regards to this in the booklet than there is on their website

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dwk
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#90 Post by dwk » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:26 pm

Criterion's colors seem to match Neon's trailer, so I would assume they also match the master they received. Maybe the French release dialed back some green.

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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#91 Post by Calvin » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:40 pm

The colours of the UK and German releases seem to match the French, only the Criterion is an outlier.

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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#92 Post by yoloswegmaster » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:52 pm

Calvin wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:22 pm
tenia wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:18 pm
It's getting hard to understand exactly what happened, both now and during the 4K restoration process.

It's clear that the Criterion and French releases are sourced from the same 4K restoration, with both claiming a Bong supervision (only Criterion also claims a DoP supervision). It's hard to understand why he would be OK with something in 2017-18 but not anymore in 2020.
Criterion say that the restoration was supervised, they don't make any claims about their transfer - unless there's more info with regards to this in the booklet than there is on their website
I can't verify this at the moment for obvious reasons but the review by Svet has the transfer notes listed and I'm pretty sure that it only stated that the restoration was done by CJ Entertainment, with Kim Hyung-koo listed as a supervisor.

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Der Spieler
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#93 Post by Der Spieler » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:22 pm

World of Wong Kar-wai, Nightmare Alley and Memories of Murder were my most anticipated releases. Guess it's a great year for disappointment.

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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#94 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:41 pm

Der Spieler wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:50 am
Comparisons are up at Caps-a-holic. The Criterion looks even worse than I imagined. Yikes.
In a lot of the caps, it seems the Criterion loses detail too.

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tenia
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#95 Post by tenia » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:31 pm

The caps there do seem softer, though it's hard to tell if it's the contrast playing tricks, the encode being rubbish or if it has been filtered.

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mhofmann
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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#96 Post by mhofmann » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:17 am

The underlying scan Criterion has used is very good. It's the image of the Korean disc that has been subjected to some amount of unsharp masking ("edge enhancement"), which subjectively increases local sharpness but does not actually add any detail. Compare the grass in capture 15; it's actually the Criterion disc that offers better details, without being oversharpened.
Add to this the generally higher contrast of the Korean disc and it seems as if it were sharper. It's not!

Where Criterion loses out though -- and this is not entirely unexpected 'cause they're just really bad at it -- is grain reproduction. Look at all the skies (caps, 4, 6, 15) in the Caps-a-holic examples. What should be a very fine layer of grain is just a blotchy mess on the Criterion disc. Sigh.

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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#97 Post by tenscho » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:39 am

hearthesilence wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:26 pm
hearthesilence wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:13 pm
feihong wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:41 pm
I believe the CJ Entertainment blu ray is still in print.

https://www.yesasia.com/us/memories-of- ... info.html
Kind of horrible that Criterion is fine with passing this stuff off on us. This can't be some "original vision" for the movie.
Thanks!

FWIW, it's part of a "buy 3 get 1 free" deal, and it's eligible for free international shipping. I wonder if it's worth doing a group buy just to help reduce the cost? It still won't be a cheap BD, but at least it won't be $40+ USD.
I think I'm going to go for this. I have one taker on this and just need one more. Anyone?

EDIT: I made a mistake - while it's buy 3 get 1 free, they don't mean one of the Blu-rays is free, they mean they give you a free DVD from a selection of 10 in addition to the 3 you buy. I've never heard of any of the ten giveaway titles.
Can you confirm if this version (2021 CJ Korean reprint) has the green tint or not?

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Memories of Murder (Bong Joon-Ho, 2003)

#98 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:34 am

DISCUSSION ENDS MONDAY, August 31st

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Re: Memories of Murder (Bong Joon-Ho, 2003)

#99 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:12 am

I've mentioned before that this film blew my mind in college, and ignited my interest in Asian cinema in particular. I saw it shortly after Zodiac (a film I was a lot cooler on upon its release than now, but still liked at the time) and felt like the humor in Bong's film was more organically and creatively woven into the fabric of the film to accentuate its themes. I still do, for while Zodiac's mismatched buddy/antisocial humor from Gyllenhaal as an resolved but goofy fish out of water paired with Downey's witty laidback persona has its value, the spirit of the film is not sourced in the inclusion of this shade of the dynamics. In Bong's film, however, the bizarre blend of humor and harrowing murder work to create an apt portrait of the messy nature of fallible people, magnetized by their own individualized distractions whilst engaging in the futile process of 'objective' investigation. The facts require an immediacy weighted down by the myopic skewed perspectives of the principals, and although these idiosyncrasies are played for absurdist laughs at times, the humor's juxtaposition with its reciprocal implications of ineffectuality to progress towards the ideal -and ineluctable- goals of the detectives is ultimately devastating in a manner that sobers us from all that we rely upon for security.

The comedy is primarily derived from Song's masterful balance of passive recklessness and stubborn dedication to the work, that forces a welcome and honest contradiction between selectively desensitized empathy as a personally-prescribed 'necessary evil' to serve a heavily sensitized moral drive. At first we may doubt Song's commitment to his work next to Kim Sang-kyung's more austere professional, but then comes the terrific scene at the club where Song drunkenly dictates the systemic limitations that prevent them as South Korean detectives from engaging with their case like the FBI in America. Song's mention of America as a blueprint is key, as these murders are based on the first case of serial killer murders in Korean history. Not only are there structural blockades to actualizing advancement on the case, but this is a completely foreign terrain of 'urgency', and the detectives are working with a deficit of skill sets as another vital resource that only comes with experience. This revelation is emasculating in different ways to different characters: Kim Roi-ha increases his stapled unidimensional competence of physical aggression in the face of comprehending he has low dexterity, Kim Sang-kyung's psychology and trust in evidence crumbles under his own headstrong refusal to admit his inability to transcend his powerlessness with boostraps-logic, and Song succumbs to deep pathos as his failures gradually reveal to himself that his defense mechanisms of theatre in jokey banter, fake nonchalance, and superficial concerns proved unsuccessful at basting the horrors of this case in a glaze that could help him digest and deflect the existential erosion he suffers from his cultural promises failing him.

It's no coincidence that the film follows the beats of American police procedurals before slipping away from them. Song's methods of intervention and his imprudent temperament signify the behaviors of a man who's grown up watching American movies and TV programs and manufacturing a persona off of them. Song references the FBI and America as the schema for the job of a detective. He and his partner beat people up for an elusive higher moral order that we can tell they haven't defined, and interact like the buddy-duos of programmers without the glorified payoffs. For Song, his occupation (and sense of self) is rooted in the outline of foreign representations; and for Bong, he structures his film in a similar fashion- with the establishment of an ignorant lead who must contend with a new personality type and evolve as a result. But then something interesting happens: The film slides away from the control of these fantastical routines because the consequences don't match the movies. The crimes persist despite the men doing their best, the details become more and more grisly, and no humor can hide the mass of loss that actively suffocates and exposes the fruitless efforts of imperfect vessels vying for hope in friction with nebulous stamina.

The mismatched buddy cop movie that Song wants to be in, and that Bong postures at making, fades into the realism of the situation as the models wither into havoc- though not romanticized pandemonium. Zodiac follows this model peripherally in spurts only, in the service of the more objective narrative, but Memories of Murder forcefeeds us with smooth entertainment before pulling the rug out from under us, its characters, and the film itself. The interview with the primary suspect where silence renders all styles of intervening experts helpless, the late-act wild and sloppy bar fight scene, and culmination in Kwang-ho's unexpected demise (after an appropriately-placed illusory hint that we're going to venture back into the comfort of comedy with him climbing the pole and bargaining with the cops about whether or not they'll kill him) all signal this change. This is a dark world, and any faculty we believe we have to tangibly solve its darkness is a delusion.

I don't think Zodiac arrives at a conclusion that's much different regarding the reality of the situation and humans' relationship with the powerless enigmas of the unknown and inaccessible corporeal truths outside of our scope. I don't even think one film is much better than the other, for they're both near-perfect in their own ways. But I do think Bong's film self-reflexively utilizes the skeleton of foreign cinema, to him, to demonstrate the inventive narratives we concoct to protect and stabilize our psyches, and inform our behavioral practices in social contexts, and then uses his own country's history grounded in the abandonment of this fantasy to contrast the magic of movies with the troubling reality of hindrance. The compromise is catastrophic, the inadequacy unbearable to confront, and the refusal to show the killer's identity or arrive at a conclusive hint of satisfaction is unprecedented- at least for these men, and for this country.

Kim Sang-kyung's negligence to stop the final crime (due to the universal yet still mechanical human flaw of needing sleep), and his eventual angry animalistic outburst towards his suspect, indicate an absolute devolution of balance. Though it's his final act of disbelieving objective evidence as lies based on fallible gut feelings, while also unable to challenge it with any 'evidence' of his own, that seals the execution of his own identity. The most powerful moment in the film comes next when Song, whose existential debilitation has evoked a more delicate and sensitive reaction, stares the suspect down and surrenders, "Fuck I don't know. Do you get up each morning, too?" The phrasing of that last line insinuates that Song is realizing the vulnerability of being human- of waking up each day without control over the contents to come- for the first time. His rumination that this man in front of him is human like him is at once striving for connection whilst acknowledging that this is impossible. He cannot truly know this person or his guilt- and that admittance is crippling as he verbalizes his defeat with a rhetorical question about the value of being human. All he knows is his newfound fear, perpetrated by an invisible culprit who acts as a reminder of Song's pathetic place within the cosmos; the inability to sense evil with the tools he possesses.

The final prompt for this epiphany comes many years later, when the little girl tells Song that she saw the serial killer, and can't describe him besides "plain" and "ordinary." Song's confidence is burgled and his face tells us exactly what he's feeling.. that any refurbished ego he has been able to assemble over the last twenty years has been a ruse to cover up the knowledge of his impotence, of all of our impotences, to contend with evil. For evil wakes up in the morning too, just like us.

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Re: 1073 Memories of Murder

#100 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:33 pm

So having finally watched the new transfer in motion, I’m still ambivalent about the color grading. First the positives: I’m grateful that the two bookend scenes aren’t altered at all from their sunny aesthetic irony, as each fittingly serves to unexpectedly contrast the main principal’s mirage of tone, bursting Song’s safe bubble of false expectations to reveal naïveté persisting on either side of the narrative- resilience itself captured as a defensive facade. Many of the darker interior shots of the police station -and the night outdoor scenes within urban spaces- are fine too, evoking the same appropriate gloomy mood of these segments on the DVD.

However, I was beyond irritated by the “daytime” setpieces at the crime scene, with unnatural looking shadows erasing the detectives’ facial information, not to mute expression but to cast shadows in oddly-specific places. I imagine this is supposed to be the consequence of overcast skies, but that’s just not how the sun works in where it’s illuminating objects and where it’s wiping them out, and any intended dreary effect doesn’t function effectively in motion. Normally these changes don’t bother me much once I’m watching the film, but I was completely distracted and taken out of these scenes by the colorized manipulation that destroyed any sense of authenticity of place. This is a shame, since the brewing situation being depicted is harrowing and demands focus in its multifaceted function at narratively increasing stakes and thematically also peeling back layers of mythmaking and fantastical boundaries of comfort for the detectives. There are a lot of complex pieces at work here, but even if the green-darkening doesn't bother you, the aesthetics are so intrusively pronounced that the visual coating doesn't add to, but diverts attention from the dynamics being disrupted. They play like sloppy, low-budget day-for-night attempts by an amateur.

The other unfortunate changes come during the night scenes in rural spaces like the woods- and the general usurping of ‘red’ as I feared. Sure, you can tell that the color red is being used, but it’s far less bolded or striking, and thus scenes involving the color as a trigger for our unease are diminished. No matter how many times I see this film (all on the previous R1 DVD), there's one scene during a stakeout in the woods where a character takes out a red garment that sends chills down my spine, but here I could barely discern the visual significance of what makes that movement so tense. The rainy insipid scenes leading up to the end work fine, but those middle ones in the woods just don't. They're dampened to an extreme that eliminates the thrust of imagery, forfeiting the balance of suspense the DVD retained with its own brand of sterile murkiness.

I don't know, overall it's worth picking up, but even if some of these changes are affecting me more due to a hypersensitized history with the film, I can't imagine the red imagery popping to absolutely wreck first-time audiences with this new transfer, at least in the scenes that to this day I can recall where I was and how I felt when I first watched them. The visuals just aren't strongly defined enough in certain places where they desperately need to be (i.e. the use of red, the rural night scenes), or they're overly defined with distracting exaggerations when they need to pull back to address the implicit actions taking place (i.e. the overcast crime scene lighting), and in these instances the transfer alteration is a pity.

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