World of Wong Kar Wai

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tenia
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1001 Post by tenia » Thu May 27, 2021 1:33 am

It usually happens where the files used to create a release aren't natively at 24fps or people thinking they weren't. Playing with the Audio pitch is then done to theoritically put it at the proper original tone, but if not done properly, you can end up with the wrong tone in the end because something that didn't require adjustment got adjusted.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1002 Post by MichaelB » Thu May 27, 2021 4:59 am

When we slowed down that Scottish TV doc on Alexander Mackendrick (on Arrow's Sweet Smell of Success) to 24fps to maximise compatibility, one side-effect was that film clips that had been speeded up to 25fps reverted to their original pitch.

These days, I might also have tried repitching just the interviews so that everything would be correct across the board (and for the first time), but I didn't have the tools back then and couldn't justify the expense of hiring someone.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1003 Post by Stefan Andersson » Sat May 29, 2021 1:13 pm

Detailed info in German on the WKW revisions to Happy Together: https://www.schnittberichte.com/schnitt ... ?ID=459534
And details on "2046" Chinese and HK DVDs: https://www.schnittberichte.com/schnitt ... hp?ID=1898

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Boosmahn
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1004 Post by Boosmahn » Sat May 29, 2021 2:55 pm

I haven't seen Happy Together, but from what I gather, those lines seem important (or at least tone-setting).

Tinkering with the color of your films is one thing, but cutting dialogue is another matter. It's even worse when you pass it off as something that "couldn't be helped." I think the missing dialogue is the worst thing about this set — yes, worse than the Fallen Angels changes. There's no excuse for this. You're sabotaging your own art, and devaluing the work other people put into it.

I know these gripes have already been aired here, but this is one change I can't get over.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1005 Post by hearthesilence » Sat May 29, 2021 4:26 pm

Boosmahn wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:55 pm
I haven't seen Happy Together, but from what I gather, those lines seem important (or at least tone-setting).

Tinkering with the color of your films is one thing, but cutting dialogue is another matter. It's even worse when you pass it off as something that "couldn't be helped." I think the missing dialogue is the worst thing about this set — yes, worse than the Fallen Angels changes. There's no excuse for this. You're sabotaging your own art, and devaluing the work other people put into it.

I know these gripes have already been aired here, but this is one change I can't get over.
Cutting the dialogue seems ridiculous simply because you have something approaching (or perhaps equal to) master quality on previous Blu-ray reissues. Record labels, majors and boutiques alike, have legitimately used CD's and even vinyl releases as sources (too willingly in some cases) when the master tapes are simply inaccessible, so it's not a solution that's off people's radar. But I imagine at this point that there's been enough complaints - it's clearly not going to change anything now, but if there's a chance they'll do things right somewhere down the road, there should be enough out there to make them aware.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1006 Post by tenia » Sun May 30, 2021 6:14 am

Considering the state of audio technologies nowadays and how viewers (but also labels and restorers, actually) are much less acute to AQ variations, this indeed makes 0 sense and like Boosmahn, I also can't get over it because of this. It's to the point I wonder if this isn't a cheap opportunity for WKW to justify yet another change he wanted to do but now can hide behind this.
But as it stands technologically wise, there are several sources that could have used to retrieve these lines but someone at some point said "no" for whatever reasons, which in reality is the main issue behind this : who said "no" and what were the exact reasons for it ?

As an example, Apocalypse Now 5.1 soundtrack was restored up until the Final Cut from a copy of the original elements (who were then lost). The copy used instead was found in a dumpster (not kidding) and sent back to Murch in 95. This means the Final Cut is the first time AN soundtrack was sourced from the Printmaster. Does that mean it was rubbish since then ? Of course not. Actually, the Final Cut is 98% Printmaster and 2% dumpster copy. I don't think anyone can tell the difference.

And of course, there's the recurring bad EQ habit of Criterion as regularly demonstrated by Moshrom, which might have neutered any difference between sources anyway.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1007 Post by barbarella satyricon » Mon May 31, 2021 11:41 am

So Nova Media’s posted about their June release of In the Mood for Love, with three packaging/design options. Not because I want to play another round of this game, but do they indicate anywhere that this will have English subs? All the online Korean vendors list Korean subs only, and when I had a copy of the reissued Ashes of Time release in my hands some weeks ago, the specs also said Korean only.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1008 Post by Clarence » Mon May 31, 2021 1:59 pm

barbarella satyricon wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 11:41 am
All the online Korean vendors list Korean subs only, and when I had a copy of the reissued Ashes of Time release in my hands some weeks ago, the specs also said Korean only.
I have a copy of Nova’s Ashes of Time and can confirm that there are English subtitles on the disc despite the box only listing Korean subtitles.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1009 Post by barbarella satyricon » Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:40 am

Clarence wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 1:59 pm
I have a copy of Nova’s Ashes of Time and can confirm that there are English subtitles on the disc despite the box only listing Korean subtitles.
Thanks for confirming, good to know.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1010 Post by shiftyeyes » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:31 pm

With regards to that Nova release of Ashes of Time Redux, I suspect they were not allowed to advertise the English subs. In fact, they're hidden on the disc. Not listed in the menu, but they can be turned on with your remote. Might be a similar situation with ITMFL. Perhaps they were only given the license to release it to the South Korean market.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1011 Post by barbarella satyricon » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:34 am

shiftyeyes (the name is apropos), I think we’ve said the quiet part out loud, i.e. Easter egg subtitles as licensing work-around. Incidentally, I just picked up the Nova Media release of the WKW-produced First Love: The Litter on the Breeze, directed by Eric Kot. Was stoked to see it listed as streaming on the channel, but was not expecting a physical release in any territory outside of Hong Kong. Haven’t checked the disc yet, but have been assured that the English subs are there. A long-time favorite, and a recommended watch for anyone wanting to branch out in their WKW/Christopher Doyle-related viewing.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1012 Post by Elizabeth Corday » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:23 am

I can certainly understand the outrage. I am not a filmmaking expert, but I can totally see why people are unhappy. However I feel that this is indeed the definitive and easiest way to fully get into or enjoy WKW. I believe his heart and intentions are good even with the transfers being highly questionable. I am curious though, what is the most infamous case of a controversial home media release ? Besides Lucas editing Star Wars and Cinderella's color dress controversy I mean.

How is the reception a few months in? Generally positive?

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1013 Post by reaky » Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:04 pm

Elizabeth Corday wrote:I am curious though, what is the most infamous case of a controversial home media release ?
How about Giorgio Moroder’s Metropolis? Cut to 82 minutes, tinted and overlaid with a soundtrack of Freddie Mercury, Bonnie Tyler and Pat Benatar.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1014 Post by colinr0380 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:17 pm

Although at the time the Moroder version of Metropolis was actually restoring long considered lost material back to the film alongside all of its other issues of re-editing, re-tinting and re-subtitling and intertitling to make the film play better against the new soundtrack. Most importantly it now comfortably exists as an interesting half-way house along the road to restoration alongside the current even-more restored 2010 version on Blu-ray, so it is not as if the Giorgio Moroder Metropolis is the only version of the film available now. Indeed it now stands as a worthwhile piece of art by itself (if not probably the most faithful to Lang's original intentions for the music!), allowing people to compare and contrast it with the multitude of other versions of Metropolis out there.

I'm afraid that even without talking about his most famous creation we cannot escape George Lucas as, Star Wars aside, the original 1971 version of THX-1138 has pretty much been withdrawn from circulation, with the 2003 CGI-augmented 'Director's Cut' taking its place.

Personally I am not against director's cuts per se, and think it would be great to see a filmmaker (or anyone else, e.g. Moroder!) revisit, re-edit, cut up and experiment with their previous work to see what new facets they might uncover, but only if there is a version of the original film still preserved (especially if it is a film that has been given a commercial release and therefore has begun to build up a relationship with its audience) for posterity. Beyond the futility of trying to pretend a film never existed in a previous form, I also do not really see what is so particularly bad about having both versions of a film in circulation at the same time, because that allows for an interesting compare and contrast exercise that might only add to a film's legacy rather than destroy it. Although I suppose there is that worrying possibility that everyone may say that your new cut of a film is terrible compared to the first one. But that would happen anyway for those who remember the original version and what was done to it!

I suppose that the other argument against multiple versions being available is the one of unnecessary cluttering up the marketplace for what used to be a singular, simple, definitive release of a film, which most struck me as being an issue when Oliver Stone released seemingly 500 different edits of Alexander, which did feel like he was unable to stop tinkering with it and move on. Though the key thing is that Stone did not keep withdrawing all the previous versions of his film from circulation over and over again whenever he brought out another edition of it but allowed audiences to have the choice of which version of the film they preferred. Like a cinematic equivalent of a Choose Your Own Adventure novel!

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1015 Post by yoloswegmaster » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:31 am

The restorations for the films have been uploaded to the Criterion Channel while still retaining the previous versions of Chungking Express, In the Mood for Love, Fallen Angels, and Happy Together.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1016 Post by dekadetia » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:18 pm

yoloswegmaster wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:31 am
The restorations for the films have been uploaded to the Criterion Channel while still retaining the previous versions of Chungking Express, In the Mood for Love, Fallen Angels, and Happy Together.
A decision so sensible that I'm kind of shocked it happened.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1017 Post by Orlac » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:20 pm

reaky wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:04 pm
Elizabeth Corday wrote:I am curious though, what is the most infamous case of a controversial home media release ?
How about Giorgio Moroder’s Metropolis? Cut to 82 minutes, tinted and overlaid with a soundtrack of Freddie Mercury, Bonnie Tyler and Pat Benatar.
Love it!

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1018 Post by ame-otoko » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:56 am

Hi, I am new to this forum,

having read the larger portion of the previous 40 pages I am grateful for the technical insight. My initial disappointment over the lack of a 4K Blu-ray release was met with astonishment regarding the actual (factual) changes of Wong Kar Wai’s work to the point where I am willing to purchase the Criterion box set and treat it as a bunch of "new" movies - for better or worse.

However, I do not understand the pricing and distribution strategy by Criterion. Production scarcity, Blu-ray scalping and licensing agreements aside, why did Criterion not just release a single box set, either as region code free Blu-ray, or with the presumably licensed regions A and B present?

For region B territories, and for those of you who know the WKW films in and out looking to complete their collection, the aforementioned French box set (Coffret La Révolution Wong Kar-wai) provides a decent value for money since it usually goes for 40-50 bucks on Amazon. As far as I know, this box set includes the only region B release of Happy Together (apart from the new Criterion box set). And yes, the subtitles are French only.
Ashes of Time Redux, Chungking Express, and Fallen Angels are probably sourced from the same material as the Artificial Eye Blu-ray, although Fallen Angels has a lower brightness in comparison, while Days of Being Wild appears to be the same transfer as the Megastar Blu-ray.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1019 Post by jegharfangetmigenmyg » Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:39 am

So, I bought this set. I did this even after reading through this entire thread and all its glorious rants. Having seen only In the Mood for Love, which I liked but didn't love, I thought it a good opportunity to catch up. Having not seen any of the other films, stupid me thought that only Fallen Angels looked truly terrible, and that wouldn't mind those special color gradings since I had no memories for comparison. I started by watching As Tears Goes By which in itself looked quite crappy -- however, better than the previous releases, I understand.

Today I decided to start tackling the trilogy, so I first watched Days of Being Wild. It looked good, actually, but very dark, as in very very dark, with probably too many details getting lost in the murk. There were some questionable Matrix-style green color grading in select scenes, but I wasn't too distracted. When the end credits rolled, I noticed that this was restored by Ritrovata, among others! I don't think any of the rants have stressed this enough. Because, if Ritrovata first have turned every instance of white to yellow, and then Wong afterwards have had his way with digital filters, then, no wonder the final results look so terrible.

Well, this was certainly true of In the Mood for Love, which I had seen before (I viewed the original Criterion blu-ray and still have it). All in all the detail level was better and more refined, but pretty much everything else were a mess. Again, the film looked way too dark. All dynamics have been often sucked out of the image by Wong's filters, and now I had something to compare with. I saw a lot of crushed blacks (especially in every one of those famous staircase scenes -- they looked terrible). As this film had a lot of daylight scenes which DoBW lacks, I was often struck by how obviously ritrovata'ed this has been. Firstly, there are the title cards that appear throughout the film. The texts of those now appear yellow, not white. But, clearly worst of all -- and I urge you to check this out -- the Cambodia epilogue. It's just a non-dynamic yellow mess. Everything, including the sky is totally ritrovata-yellow, and the green grass in the hole is now brown. I did an A/B-comparison of this and the old Criterion blu-ray, and I must admit that the color grading of this new one is truly horrible.

I haven't checked the other discs, but if Ritrovata has done the main restoration on all of them before Wong has had his way with the filters, again, it makes so much more sense that these films look so terrible. Anyways, I just wanted to stress the fact that Ritrovata are probaly most of all to blame for the actual restoration looking so bad, more so than Wong and his filters are...

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1020 Post by mhofmann » Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:50 am

jegharfangetmigenmyg wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:39 am
Today I decided to start tackling the trilogy, so I first watched Days of Being Wild. It looked good, actually, but very dark, as in very very dark, with probably too many details getting lost in the murk. There were some questionable Matrix-style green color grading in select scenes, but I wasn't too distracted. When the end credits rolled, I noticed that this was restored by Ritrovata, among others! I don't think any of the rants have stressed this enough. Because, if Ritrovata first have turned every instance of white to yellow, and then Wong afterwards have had his way with digital filters, then, no wonder the final results look so terrible.

...

I haven't checked the other discs, but if Ritrovata has done the main restoration on all of them before Wong has had his way with the filters, again, it makes so much more sense that these films look so terrible. Anyways, I just wanted to stress the fact that Ritrovata are probaly most of all to blame for the actual restoration looking so bad, more so than Wong and his filters are...
Ritrovata is not to blame for everything here. They indeed did part (or most) of the film restoration, which they are by the way excellent at, but they did not do the color grading! That was done by "One Cool Production" under supervision of Wong Kar-Wai, and *he* is the one to blame for the new gradings.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1021 Post by tenia » Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:58 am

I'm still curious about exactly who did precisely what on those. I guess it'll be easier to judge retrospectively when the new Infernal Affairs restorations, also restored by Ritrovata but graded by One Cool, will be widely available as they're likely to allow more easily to see if the Ritrovata color signature is there or not.
But I wouldn't be surprised to leanr that One Cool are credited but they were, in practice, supported by Ritrovata. I'll have to check but I seem to remember it happened at least once for a movie restored by the Taiwan Film Institute (probably a King Hu).

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1022 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:06 pm

tenia wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:58 am
I'm still curious about exactly who did precisely what on those. I guess it'll be easier to judge retrospectively when the new Infernal Affairs restorations, also restored by Ritrovata but graded by One Cool, will be widely available as they're likely to allow more easily to see if the Ritrovata color signature is there or not.
But I wouldn't be surprised to leanr that One Cool are credited but they were, in practice, supported by Ritrovata. I'll have to check but I seem to remember it happened at least once for a movie restored by the Taiwan Film Institute (probably a King Hu).
When Ritrovata opened their Asian branch in 2015, it was said that color correction for their restorations would be done by One Cool. (As an aside, both of them are based out of the Milkyway Image studios.) One Cool is also credited alongside Ritrovata for the recent Lan Yu restoration. I can't find any mention of One Cool working on the King Hu restorations, most of which were done before Ritrovata started the Hong Kong branch. Legend of the Mountain was the only one done afterwards and the restoration notes say it was done in Bologna.
mhofmann wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:50 am
Ritrovata is not to blame for everything here. They indeed did part (or most) of the film restoration, which they are by the way excellent at, but they did not do the color grading! That was done by "One Cool Production" under supervision of Wong Kar-Wai, and *he* is the one to blame for the new gradings.
This is the case for In the Mood for Love, but the restoration notes for Days of Being Wild (and As Tears Go By) don't mention Wong. Most of the transfers in the set were "supervised and approved by Wong Kar Wai," but that language is missing for those two; instead it just says "This 4K digital restoration was undertaken from the 35mm original camera negative by the Criterion Collection in collaboration with L’Immagine Ritrovata and One Cool." Now it is possible they were graded in line with what they assumed Wong wanted based on the other transfers, or Wong provided some general notes but wasn't involved to the same degree as the others. But as tenia says we'll soon have a good idea whether this is actually a signature of One Cool.
Last edited by The Fanciful Norwegian on Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1023 Post by yoloswegmaster » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:28 pm

I honestly don't believe that the films scanned by the Hong Kong branch apply the usual colour grade that their parent company is infamously known for, though I'm only basing this off screengrabs from the Throw Down release as it's the only film that I know for sure was restored by them. Does anyone know where the other Fortune Star films have been restored? I'm now wondering if the HK branch has been handling the Fortune Star restorations since outside of the Police Story and Bruce Lee films that were done by the Italian lab, all of the recent Fortune Star releases from Eureka/88 Films don't seem to have the typical Ritrovata grade to them.'
tenia wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:58 am
I'm still curious about exactly who did precisely what on those. I guess it'll be easier to judge retrospectively when the new Infernal Affairs restorations.
Woah, I didn't know that Infernal Affairs was getting a restoration. That's fantastic news! Do you know where you heard this news since I can't seem to find anything about it.
Last edited by yoloswegmaster on Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1024 Post by jegharfangetmigenmyg » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:33 pm

mhofmann wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:50 am
jegharfangetmigenmyg wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:39 am
Today I decided to start tackling the trilogy, so I first watched Days of Being Wild. It looked good, actually, but very dark, as in very very dark, with probably too many details getting lost in the murk. There were some questionable Matrix-style green color grading in select scenes, but I wasn't too distracted. When the end credits rolled, I noticed that this was restored by Ritrovata, among others! I don't think any of the rants have stressed this enough. Because, if Ritrovata first have turned every instance of white to yellow, and then Wong afterwards have had his way with digital filters, then, no wonder the final results look so terrible.

...

I haven't checked the other discs, but if Ritrovata has done the main restoration on all of them before Wong has had his way with the filters, again, it makes so much more sense that these films look so terrible. Anyways, I just wanted to stress the fact that Ritrovata are probaly most of all to blame for the actual restoration looking so bad, more so than Wong and his filters are...
Ritrovata is not to blame for everything here. They indeed did part (or most) of the film restoration, which they are by the way excellent at, but they did not do the color grading! That was done by "One Cool Production" under supervision of Wong Kar-Wai, and *he* is the one to blame for the new gradings.
I stand corrected if One Cool is responsible. All I can say is that the epilogue of ItMfL looked very familiar -- as in it looked like the many other Ritrovata restorations, and in a very bad way that I urge those of you who bought the set to check out. If I were to guess, maybe they had a hand in the grading of some, not all, of the movies? Again, I was not distracted by the restoration of DoBW, probably because it is shot mostly in the dark. But Ritrovata really shines in sunlit scenes, and, as we know, beach scenes when both the sky and the ocean suddenly looks like something from another planet. This very much sunlit Angkor Wrack scene pretty much ruined the film experience for me and had me instantly compare to the old blu-ray just to confirm that there once were other colours than yellow in those final minutes of the film.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#1025 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:49 pm

yoloswegmaster wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:28 pm
I honestly don't believe that the films scanned by the Hong Kong branch apply the usual colour grade that their parent company is infamously known for, though I'm only basing this off screengrabs from the Throw Down release as it's the only film that I know for sure was restored by them. Does anyone know where the other Fortune Star films have been restored? I'm now wondering if the HK branch has been handling the Fortune Star restorations since outside of the Police Story and Bruce Lee films that were done by the Italian lab, all of the recent Fortune Star releases from Eureka/88 Films don't seem to have the typical Ritrovata grade to them.
I doubt Ritrovata handles those. My guess is they only handle the big 4K marquee restorations, like the Bruce Lee films, A Better Tomorrow, Police Story 1 and 2, etc. For most of those the restoration work was done in Bologna, though at least some were scanned in Hong Kong. The recent Center Stage restoration has a definite Ritrovata look, but I don't know where the grading was done (the notes from this year's Il Cinema Ritrovato say "Restored in 4K in 2021 by Fortune Star Media in collaboration with Interface Video Production at L’Immagine Ritrovata laboratory"; Interface is a post house that seems to do a bit of everything, but it's possible they only handled the scan and the rest was done in Bologna). Made in Hong Kong is credited to both the HK and Bologna branches. Basically Throw Down and the Wong Kar-wais are the only ones on disc that we know for sure were graded in Hong Kong, but more are presumably on the way.
Last edited by The Fanciful Norwegian on Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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