80, 454, 1168 Lars von Trier's Europe Trilogy

[kaujot]

I'm afraid I can't remember what the story behind the title change to Zentropa was - was it an official alternate title or just used in the US?

There was another film in the US released at the time (or just before) by the title of Europa Europa.

[colinr0380]

Ah yes, the Agnieszka Holland film.

[Tribe]

Well, I'm a big admirer of Von Trier's work in Breaking the Waves, but even a fan can find that film misogynistic.

Can you elaborate on which parts are misogynistic? I've seen the film a couple of times now and didn't notice anything that was less than sympathetic to the female characters except for the mother who is a useless bitch due to religious fanaticism rather than gender.

I find the movie almost revels in the notion that a woman's path to sainthood is premised on humiliating degradation. In addition, the only woman who is free, so to speak, from her surrounding society is Beth as she delights in her sexuality with her new husband. Yet, she is the only female character who is subjected to the awfulness, while remaining pure (or good) at heart.

So yeah, that's misogynistic in my book. But I'm not knocking Breaking the Waves...it's a brilliant, although difficult to watch at times, movie.

Tribe

[lazier than a toad]

I am not sure you can take anything that happens in a von Trier, or that he says in an interview (did you see the one where he pretends/claims he hypnotised the whole cast and crew of Europa?) film on face value. To me they all reek of irony in a kind of self and audience hating way - the end of Obstructions or the whole of the Idiots seem like the clearest examples. And that seems to be very sadistic (as well as masochistic) and deeply arrogant, but never really misogynist. He never condones, glamourises, trivialises or marginalises the suffering of his women characters - he makes it disgusting, but in a way that exaggerates something of a reality (not denying it). Hence I would argue that his films are overall constructive not destructive/misogynist, despite often being hard things to watch.

At the same time I am not sure I would not describe a movie I felt was misogynist as great, without feeling misogynist myself.

[domino harvey]

At the same time I am not sure I would not describe a movie I felt was misogynist as great, without feeling misogynist myself.

Misogynist films are said to be great in spite of their misogyny. So many canonical films are misogynistic that excluding them is to exclude most of cinema.

[lazier than a toad]

At the same time I am not sure I would not describe a movie I felt was misogynist as great, without feeling misogynist myself.

Misogynist films are said to be great in spite of their misogyny. So many canonical films are misogynistic that excluding them is to exclude most of cinema.

But isn't that in some way misogynist?

[domino harvey]

At the same time I am not sure I would not describe a movie I felt was misogynist as great, without feeling misogynist myself.

Misogynist films are said to be great in spite of their misogyny. So many canonical films are misogynistic that excluding them is to exclude most of cinema.

But isn't that in some way misogynist?

Recognizing misogyny is not misogynistic in itself, and neither is still enjoying those works-- again, we live in a male-centric universe and most films reflect that either overtly or subtextually... I consider myself to be quite feminist and yet even I see that the most interesting works of art to discuss and study are those that are flawed in some sense.

[Tribe]

I am not sure you can take anything that happens in a von Trier, or that he says in an interview (did you see the one where he pretends/claims he hypnotised the whole cast and crew of Europa?) film on face value. To me they all reek of irony in a kind of self and audience hating way - the end of Obstructions or the whole of the Idiots seem like the clearest examples. And that seems to be very sadistic (as well as masochistic) and deeply arrogant, but never really misogynist. He never condones, glamourises, trivialises or marginalises the suffering of his women characters - he makes it disgusting, but in a way that exaggerates something of a reality (not denying it). Hence I would argue that his films are overall constructive not destructive/misogynist, despite often being hard things to watch.

I think the claim about hypnotizing a character was made in regard to Epidemic...the last scene. I'm not entirely certain he really did, or had her hypnotized throughout the scene.

We can agree to disagree about the degree of misogyny in Breaking the Waves, but I do agree with you that he does feel contempt or despises his audience. Perhaps hating his audience is just a variation on the theme?

Tribe

[macaca]

breaking the waves is one of the best films of the 90s.
along with dancer in the dark & dogville, its hard not to admire von trier.
although ive yet to see this, im quite pleased about the news.

[colinr0380]

I think the claim about hypnotizing a character was made in regard to Epidemic...the last scene. I'm not entirely certain he really did, or had her hypnotized throughout the scene.

According to the commentary they hired a real hypnotist and his assistant so the hypontism itself was 'real', but they also gave them some guidelines on what they wanted the theme of the hypnosis to be (about a historical plague, that kind of thing) so they riffed on that also.

Also they took the lady in and out of hypnosis so they could apply the different stages of plague makeup.

"We all fall down! We all fall down! Aaarrgghhh!"

[lazier than a toad]

Yeah I understand that bit about the hypnotism in Epidemic.

But this documentary is a seperate thing, I am almost certain about Europa. It is clearly a joke, or at least I hope so, but is also consistant with the personality he displays through his films. I think it might be 'The Making of Europa' (or possibly one of the other films in the trilogy) or the other doc on the Tartan trilogy disc / boxset.

[pro-bassoonist]

I absolutely adore this film. Is there any rumored date at all? I would be very interested to see what extras come up with this set...as I already own two versions of it.

Dr.A

[kekid]

I do not like Zentropa. I think it is a film whose surface is so dazzling that one might overlook there is no substance within.
I think Breaking the Waves would have been a far better Von Trier choice for Criterion.
I have found it confounding that Von Trier greatly admires Carl T. Dreyer. I consider Dreyer to be a candidate for the greatest filmmaker of all time, whose greatness lies equally in style and substance. Dreyer's spirituality is in stark contrast to Von Trier's contempt for various elements of humanity. However, I consider Von Trier's admiration for Dreyer genuine, and the final scene of Breaking the Waves a touching tribute.
With Vampyr, La Notte, and Salo waiting in the wings, Zentropa is a distraction.

[colinr0380]

Von Trier also paid tribute by using Dreyer's cinematographer of Ordet and Gertrud, Henning Bendtsen, to do the amazing photography for Europa and the film within a film in Epidemic.

I would agree, kekid, about not being entirely certain about the philosophy behind the decision of why to shoot things the way he did in Europa. It seems a bit arbitrary at times, or at worst flashy, overcomplicated visuals for their own sake that at times overwhelm rather than compliment the film. But I don't think there was meant to be that much 'within' in the first place - the visuals feel like the primary driving force of the film, not really the plot (this is even more so with Element of Crime) - because of that it makes a kind of sense that he went to completely the opposite extreme with his Dogme style films that focused on, albeit simple, plots to the expense of careful framing and editing (though I also find the rough Dogme style quite beautiful and artificial in its own way, and like the abrupt edits that often have extreme changes in sound levels. More the signifiers of off hand, amateur filmmaking than amateurly shot films for real!)

Von Trier himself said something to the effect that after Europa there was nowhere further he could really go with that kind of artificial style, and it probably was that quest to reach the outer boundaries of representation that is the most interesting aspect of Europa, and was something that was very present in the short Nocturne (with its strange line of sight editing techniques) and The Element of Crime. One of the best things (and also criticisms) that could be said about Von Trier's early films is that they look stunning with their uses of old techniques in strange and unique ways.

[mmacklem]

On the whole topic of the disputed misogyny in von Trier's films, I've always kind of considered the screenplays of the films in question (Breaking the Waves, Dancer in the Dark, Dogville) to almost consist of a laboratory experiment in writing an incredibly strong female character, and seeing what stimulus is required to break them, similar to a scientist taking a lab animal and doing all sorts of physical experiments to find the limits on their physical behaviour.

With that in mind, I think it's possible to come out of any of these films with both an incredible admiration for the female characters at the core of these films, while also hating the intentions of the filmmaker for putting them through everything they've experienced. One question that comes out of it is to what extent one comes with the other, if our admiration for the female characters are specifically tied to seeing their strength and endurance. And to me that's the most interesting and troubling part of these films is how they force us to think about the relationship between the hardships someone is forced to endure and our admiration for them, which is understandable as a sufficient condition but troubling as a necessary condition.

[justeleblanc]

I agree that visually the film is very strange, but in terms of substance I loved it. The film is about an idiotic American who's simplistic and optimistic in his understanding of foreign affairs and when he gets into the shit, it pretty much destroys him.

It in itself may be a simple concept, but watching it in a post-9/11 college class when all my classmates were self-appointed scholars on how to solve the mid-east fighting.... the film pretty much bitch slapped them.

[colinr0380]

The film is about an idiotic American who's simplistic and optimistic in his understanding of foreign affairs and when he gets into the shit, it pretty much destroys him.

I agree with this and with mmacklem's thoughts about the 'broken hearts' trilogy. All the 'Europe' films have that same idea running through them. By starting with this kind of overall philosophy and his manifestos for a film (or film trilogy), I think that frees von Trier up to play around with the style, or carefully managed supposed lack of it, in his films.

I got the same kind of impression from The Five Obstructions. It felt as if long before Jorgen Leth was set his tasks von Trier had planned every aspect out in detail, from his unimpressed reactions to each of the films Leth made to the wonderfully touching final about face. Then he gets to making the film and is able to watch it play out like clockwork. There is real warmth and emotion there but it is at a distance because the emotion of coming up with the tasks and the final challenge was done at a remove rather than being a spur of the moment thing von Trier thought up on the spot, though he plays it that way - it feels like anti-improvisation in some ways and I found it actually caused a greater emotional response than any piece of overly emotional improv!

While I still have no real evidence for this being his intentions, I'd still like to imagine Manderlay summing up the 'Europe' films and Dogville doing the same with the 'Broken Hearts' films, made all the more interesting by having the same main character go through both philosophies.

It also seems that the US(A?) trilogy marks von Trier's entry back into artificiality (but bringing some of the techniques he has acquired from his 'narrative above all' era with him - hey! just like Van Sant!) and the new world of CG techniques that maybe may allow him to push further past what he achieved in Europa?

[justeleblanc]

In thinking about the over-the-top visuals of Zentropa, they don't completely come out of nowhere. If we are to buy into the theme that we are hypnotized and the entire film is some strange dream state, then surely the strange juxtaposition of 40s film stock and contemporary special effect are just a reflection of that. How is it any different that Fellini's surreal visuals in 8 1/2 or Juliet? Or maybe both directors have taken the easy way out.

[colinr0380]

The Criterion Contraption

[Polybius]

That's not a brief, strangely colored insert: the entire film is lit with that same sickly yellow. It looks like Piss Christ: The Motion Picture.

Okay, I admit that I laughed at that, but working off of this, I seriously doubt that I'll want to read any more of his reviews.

[colinr0380]

A lot of the Criterion Contraption reviews are very good - I particularly liked the one on Cleo From 5 to 7. In their defence The Element of Crime is quite a difficult film to like or even get on the same wavelength of, so I can understand the negative response even though the film has personally grown on me since seeing it.

Here is the fan video for a Radiohead song that uses images from The Element of Crime that used to be mentioned in the Criterion Contraption piece. It was linked to in that a little dismissively but I think it is quite a good little video that manages to keep in the spirit of the film.

[angst-zeit]

It is hard for me to believe that only one of Von Trier's films has gone Criterion. Is this film the only one?

[miless]

Is this film the only one?

Until they release Zentropa in the near future.

[Jack Phillips]

Is this film the only one?

Until they release Zentropa in the near future.

You mean "Europa"? Best to stick with the title that fits the "E" trilogy designation.

[CSM126]

Is this film the only one?

Until they release Zentropa in the near future.

You mean "Europa"? Best to stick with the title that fits the "E" trilogy designation.

Considering that

A) It was released in the US as Zentropa

and

B) They called it Zentropa in a blog post on their site

I'm guessing they're going with Zentropa on this one, not Europa.