480 The Human Condition

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Crocky
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#101 Post by Crocky » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:58 am

domino harvey wrote:like these are new concepts

New? No , but not clear. An opinion about a piece of art is subjective,how can it be overrated?
Uh, a film can be highly rated by many without justification, and conversely, a film can also be poorly rated by many without justification. Thus, a film can be overrated or underrated based on how an individual perceives its success or failure...
I understand but according what criterion do you judge if a film is rated with or without justification (poorly or highly)?
If you call a highly rated film "overrated" because you dislike it or underrated a film with a low rating, because you adore it, then you express your opinion, your disagreement with the praise or critic. A film gets its rating according the laws of statistic: X % like it and Y% dislike it and the result is a ratio. A viewer vote or opinion is subjective but not the statistic (even if based on subjective opinions).
domino harvey wrote:I love how the people who get mad over glib negative statements never complain about the glib positive ones
I don't know if that was directed toward me, but "The Human Condition" was one of my preferred movie and I dreamed about the day it will get the Criterion treatment; today after my third viewing I don't like it so much. I may rent it to compare with my Image edition but I won't purchase the set( that still does make me think that the film is "overrated")
You can roll your eyes all you want
Relax, its only a discussion a bout a film :wink:

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knives
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#102 Post by knives » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:10 am

I seem to be a bit late on this, and actually have only gotten through the first disc, but I have to say this is a marvelous film so far. I was really expecting the worst, Kobayashi's blunder before greatness. Instead though I got beautiful photography that seems to switch with ease between Ozu lights and noir shadows. The acting is fantastic too, of course. I can't really explain it, but that thing Nakadai does with his eyes is fantastic.
I do have to say though that this movie has the wrong title. Well Intentioned Moron would have been a more apt description, guess it doesn't fit the tone though. I also funny that this is the movie that Criterion leaves in the burnt in subtitles for.

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Peacock
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#103 Post by Peacock » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:41 am

knives wrote:I do have to say though that this movie has the wrong title. Well Intentioned Moron would have been a more apt description
You come to this conclusion after only having watched disk 1 :roll:

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knives
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#104 Post by knives » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:58 pm

Admittedly I'm jumping the gun a bit, but from what I've heard things don't change much over the next two parts. He tries his best to do the right and humanist thing, with at least a face of optimism throughout, but manages to screw up still. At least that's what I've heard of the next two parts. Plus that line was written more in humour then anything else.

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Peacock
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#105 Post by Peacock » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:06 pm

knives wrote:Plus that line was written more in humour then anything else.
I don't understand humor :wink:
enjoy the rest and tell me what you thought of the whole thing when your finished!

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knives
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#106 Post by knives » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:14 pm

Will do capt.

mteller
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#107 Post by mteller » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:21 am

knives wrote:Admittedly I'm jumping the gun a bit, but from what I've heard things don't change much over the next two parts. He tries his best to do the right and humanist thing, with at least a face of optimism throughout, but manages to screw up still. At least that's what I've heard of the next two parts. Plus that line was written more in humour then anything else.
The funny thing is that Kobayashi addresses this exact same issue in the interview on disc 4. He said that a lot of critics complained that Kaji was too naive, without having seen how the character changes over the subsequent films.

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knives
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#108 Post by knives » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:43 am

I wasn't suggesting naivety, even for the one part I've seen, but rather arrogance and ignorance. Even in the first movie he seems to have some idea of the situation at hand, but is too self centered to be of much help. Damn it that I won't have time until Wednesday to finish this.

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aox
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#109 Post by aox » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:12 am

I finally got a chance over the past week to sit and view this from start to finish and I subjectively found it to be one of the best films I have seen in a long time, and I can't wait to see it again. I was expecting the worst and was delighted that within an hour, I was sucked into the film that deeply.

Just to jump into the discussion, I am really torn about agreeing that Kaji went from idealist to realist or if in fact his character didn't go through any transformation at all. I would like to see more discussion by people who feel strongly either way; I see both sides of the coin quite clearly.

The Soviet interrogation at the end of the film with the inept (or possibly malicious) translator was heartbreaking. I was literally screaming at my screen wanting this translator removed and it was so irksome that neither Kaji or the Russian knew they were being mislead (which was the worst part for me). The realist and idealist in me personally sees more tragedy in events and actions that stem from miscommunication then a person acting out of natural impulses, and the ending to this film exemplified this to a staggering degree for me.

Additionally, many people on this board, on the internet, and in everyday life have complained (and I paraphrase):
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I didn't watch a 10 hour film for the protagonist just to die an uneventful death in the snow.
What a terribly reductionist stance to take with this film and it makes me wonder what one was doing for 10 hours while the film was playing the background. I found the ending extremely profound and riveting.

montgomery
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#110 Post by montgomery » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:40 am

aox wrote:Just to jump into the discussion, I am really torn about agreeing that Kaji went from idealist to realist or if in fact his character didn't go through any transformation at all. I would like to see more discussion by people who feel strongly either way; I see both sides of the coin quite clearly.
I think that there may have been some kind of transformation, but I'm not sure it was from idealist to realist. For me, he certainly became more hardened and slightly less naive. On the other hand, maybe not.
There are traces of his idealism in the interrogation scene that you mention, and one could argue that during the whole final sequence, he is as idealistic--and delusional--as ever.
I do think that, for me, there was something problematic about this lack of change. It wasn't that I wanted him to become less of an idealist but that I wanted him to become a little savvier when dealing with his enemies. In this sense, he was often his own worst enemy. His habit of speaking truth to power kept compromising his position, almost always left him (and others) worse off. He often seemed more naive than idealistic, and I don't think it would have compromised his idealism to use other tactics--for instance, flattery, manipulation, etc.

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aox
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#111 Post by aox » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:54 am

montgomery wrote:one could argue that during the whole final sequence, he is as idealistic--and delusional--as ever.
I would certainly argue this! Which adds to my inability to decide if transformation took place.

Additionally, seeing him "command" in the first 2 hours of the 3rd film counteracts this. I feel he is strong, effective, decisive, and well aware of the dangers surrounding him. He seems tough and rigid; a far cry from his character in the first film who I could not see leading these stragglers through hunger and danger.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#112 Post by Michael Kerpan » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:04 am

I've now survived Part One, but just barely. I find this utterly naive and unbelievable so far.

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Ben Cheshire
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#113 Post by Ben Cheshire » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:55 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:I've now survived Part One, but just barely. I find this utterly naive and unbelievable so far.
Me too. I had to force myself through a lot of Pt. 1, but I did eventually get that far.
Last edited by Ben Cheshire on Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Matango
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#114 Post by Matango » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:20 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:I've now survived Part One, but just barely. I find this utterly naive and unbelievable so far.
Similar story here, except I made myself watch parts one and two, then the first half of part three. Then something came up and I had to switch off. That was about three months ago and I wonder if I'll ever bother with the final segment. Probably not.

BB
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#115 Post by BB » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:33 pm

You guys have inspired me to rent this.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#116 Post by Michael Kerpan » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:41 pm

BB wrote:You guys have inspired me to rent this.
Luckily I've got this for one week (for free) from my library. I'd be kicking myself if I had bought this (but after my unhappiness over Kwaidan, there is no way I was going to buy this sight unseen).

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Ben Cheshire
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#117 Post by Ben Cheshire » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:31 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:
BB wrote:You guys have inspired me to rent this.
Luckily I've got this for one week (for free) from my library. I'd be kicking myself if I had bought this (but after my unhappiness over Kwaidan, there is no way I was going to buy this sight unseen).
Even that's no guarantee. I loved Kwaidan and I just thought this was a much dumber movie. I think the main difference is in the music. Kwaidan's score creates mystery, Human Condition's score beats you over the head with melodrama.

I thought it looked interesting based on a scene I saw on Youtube, and it probably is in small doses; but there's definitely a lot of crap in it. And that's just Part 1.

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aox
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#118 Post by aox » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:07 am

"The Human Condition" is the best of David Lean's epics I have seen. You guys are crazy.

Giulio
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#119 Post by Giulio » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:47 am

maybe you guys should talk after seein' all parts of the movie, this blablabla makes no sense to me

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#120 Post by Michael Kerpan » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:57 am

Giulio wrote:maybe you guys should talk after seein' all parts of the movie, this blablabla makes no sense to me
Since this set consists of three separately-released films, it seems appropriate to discuss each film on its own merits (of course, people can ALSO discuss the merits of the trilogy).
aox wrote:"The Human Condition" is the best of David Lean's epics I have seen. You guys are crazy.
Well, I'm not much of a David Lean either. does that make me crazy? {shrug}
Ben Cheshire wrote:I loved Kwaidan and I just thought this was a much dumber movie. I think the main difference is in the music. Kwaidan's score creates mystery, Human Condition's score beats you over the head with melodrama.
I find Chuji Kinoshita's scores almost always over-bearing, in the fashion of mediocre Hollywood film score

To all and sundry -- watched HC2, which is a considerable improvement over HC1 -- but still not nearly as impressive (to me) as Ichikawa's two war films -- or Tasaka's two great quasi-documentaries (Five Scouts and Mud and Soldiers), which were atually made during the war. So far, HC (esp. HC1) reminds me of the mediocre (but not truly awful) Japanese war-time propaganda films, albeit with a slight shift as to who the "good guys" are supposed to be. For example, I don't find this any more sophisticated than Fushimizu's 1940 China Nights (not a horrible film by any means, but not particularly celebrated as a masterpiece by anyone I know of).

Watched HC3, a bit better than HC1 but not as good as HC2. Even my "favorite" part of this trilogy (HC2) doesn't impress me enough to cause me to re-assess my attitude towards Kobayashi in general -- namely total lack of understanding as to why he is so highly rated in the West, while the work of contemporaries (whose films I strongly prefer) are totally ignored. While he typically has a stronger visual sensibility than Kinoshita, he seems to have less skill in structuring his work (and getting top quality performances).

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Tommaso
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#121 Post by Tommaso » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:30 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:Well, I'm not much of a David Lean either. does that make me crazy? {shrug}
Yes. :wink:

Seriously, I've watched the first film of the trilogy last night, and for the first time I can understand why some here don't seem to like Kobayashi very much, although on the other hand this film bears little resemblance to the later films released by CC. In any case, I have mixed feelings about the film: the Lean comparison is quite good, as the initial scenes in the town and some other moments unfavourably reminded me of "Dr. Zhivago", the only Lean film (of those I've seen) that I didn't like too much. Another cinematic memory: the POWs slaving away in the mines even made me think of "Spartacus"...

Anachronistic comparisons, of course, but they indicate how much this film is modelled on Hollywood cinema, with all its occasional shortcomings. The worst of it is indeed the music, but there are other problems, too: for instance the fact that all the Chinese parts are played by Japanese actors, who on top of it even seem to speak their Chinese words themselves. Now, I don't understand a word of either language, but the simple sound of that mock-Chinese irritated me quite a lot compared to the usual perceived 'fluent' sound in 'real' Chinese films. And if that irritates me even as a Westerner, what impression would a Japanese or Chinese get from this?

Even if you forgive this, the film still has a lot of problems: it is far too long, the whole story could have been comfortably told in half the time. Sure, we get to know these characters very well, but I found myself looking at the player's clock more often than I usually do. The film simply drags a lot, especially in its second half, and only picks up momentum in the last thirty minutes or so, after one particularly dreadful scene:
SpoilerShow
I hate to say it, but I really wished that that officer would simply have shot that crowd of protesting prisoners instead of calling the execution off , because that unbearably melodramatic scene – of which not even Spielberg would have been proud of – would then have changed into something approaching real drama. I mean: a crowd of prisoners voicing their dislike for what is going on and actually succeeding in having their comrades life spared? How naive can you get? Not even Kaji would have imagined this. Or Gandhi.
That sequence really made me cringe. The worst didacticism in Kurosawa feels unbelievably subtle compared to this, and to the rest of the film as well: while I sympathize with Kaji, the endless talk about his humanism went on my nerves (especially as I can see it for myself).

Still, the film isn't all bad and has much to commend itself in moments: I think of the shocking scene with the prisoners leaving the wagons, and the scene with the dog, for instance; also of many of the sequences with the 'prostitutes' (though here you could argue that the film again is too 'hollywoodesque' and not gritty enough; the ladies simply look too beautiful given the circumstances). I also liked the acting of Nakadai, of course, and So Yamamura is magnificent and well-balanced in the difficult part of Okishima. The mise en scene is effective (what better way to express the 'human condition' as seen in this film than those bleak mining pits and landscapes?), though some of the longer interior scenes show a certain lack of inventiveness in shot composition and editing. Well-made, nothing more. I also acknowledge that this is probably a very important film, historically speaking, for the Japanese; but it's still a far cry from Kobayashi's handling of Japan's past and ideology in "Seppuku" only three years later. Kobayashi simply seems not yet to be able to fully control his material, thus the inexplicable blunders in a film that, after all, is well worth seeing. But it's certainly not a great masterwork either. However, this will not deter me from seeing Pts. 2 and 3, especially as I hope that these will in fact be better. There must be some artistic development from this to "Seppuku" (not to speak of "Kwaidan"), otherwise the greatness of these later films is completely inexplicable after this pretty average film.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#122 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:14 pm

I dislike Kwaidan even more than Human Condition 1 -- I like Samurai Rebellion no more than HC2 -- and Seppuku no more than HC3 (maybe a little less).

This is very much an events-based film -- and many events were totally unbelievable. In particular, the actions of the Kempeitai (Military Police) were totally unrealistic. This force would not have been as "lenient" as portrayed-- and willing to overlook things like
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a prisoner escape co-ordinated with a power outage -- where the person on duty was Chinese
.

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knives
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#123 Post by knives » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:16 pm

I find the more to be more interesting as a work of artistic growth. The film itself, except maybe the last part, doesn't lift itself above Saving Private Ryan too often, but the changes of quality as a director is very dramatic and noticable. You can actually believe the last part is by the same guy who did Seppuku. That's not to say the Human Condition is bad, but at least in its beginnings it is obviously the work of a youth.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#124 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:26 pm

knives wrote:it is obviously the work of a youth.
Human Condition 1 was (at least) Kobayashi's 10th film -- he was 33 years old -- and had been directing films for 7 or so years.

Slow bloomer, maybe? ;~}

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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#125 Post by Caged Horse » Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:10 pm

*43* years old.

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