Kino Lorber Studio Classics

Vinegar Syndrome, Deaf Crocodile, Imprint, Cinema Guild, and more.
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John Cope
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3151 Post by John Cope » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:57 am

bearcuborg wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:55 pm
feihong wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:58 pm
No Altman I've seen is worse than The Company. I'm mostly a huge Altman fan, but that movie was so bad as to shake my faith in Altman right to its core.

I can't believe Fool for Love could be worse.
I’m a huge fan of The Company.
Me too. I think it's among his best. I always thought it had the loosely observational, de-dramatized quality of a Hou film. Even looser than usual for Altman; the rigor goes into the aesthetics and compositional space as seems only appropriate for a film about artists.

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dwk
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3152 Post by dwk » Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:29 am

Ribs wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:41 pm
They were interested in doing a double UHD release for both Cape Fears but another label has acquired the US rights to those (which isn’t Arrow, per Fran Simeoni’s Twitter, so seems likely to be at Criterion).
Or Shout Factory.

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domino harvey
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3153 Post by domino harvey » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:48 am

Ribs wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:41 pm
There have been interesting conversations about Kino’s process for these 4K titles on Blu-ray’s forums, where they’ve revealed they’ve passed on getting UHD rights for both Double Indemnity and To Kill a Mockingbird because they don’t have the sales potential of Touch of Evil.
I find this rather bizarre— I know the cult of Welles is strong and this is one of his best films, but I’d reckon Double Indemnity has far more name recognition and wider fanbase

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Ribs
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3154 Post by Ribs » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:15 pm

I have to imagine the thought process is as the market has narrowed to even more enthusiast-focused then ten years ago that the drop off on sales from Blu-ray to 4K will be higher for the Wilder then the Welles, which I kind of can imagine as an argument but also seems based on no evidence. Fran Simeoni was just tweeting yesterday how validated he has felt in Arrow’s first titles all doing extremely well on the format and that it presages well for the year ahead while Kino is still afraid to get its feet wet after releasing two titles (which both sold apprently fairly well, though Mad Max sold substantially better) over two years. It just seems strange to see a label able to justify the cost of planning three Deanna Durbin box sets (the latter two of which were cancelled) not thinking that To Kill a Mockingbird, probably one of the most beloved classic era films in a general audience even among young people as it remains something shown to them in school and the like, is a title that would be worth putting out and sell fairly well. The 4K market has grown a lot in the past year (presumably a combination of costs going down and the gigantic boost in adoption the new consoles provided) and Kino’s horizons don’t particularly seem to be in a rush to meet this increase in the way that a lot of the other boutiques seeem to be rushing into (still, points for at least doing them, unlike some people).

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dwk
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3155 Post by dwk » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:26 pm

Has the UHD market really grown? It seems like just about every chart I've run across has sales around 7% of the market, with it occasionaly going higher when stuff like Star Wars gets released and lower when not much is released (it was 4.1% last week.)

I know that Blue Underground is also happy with their UHD numbers, so there is some market, and that seems to be horror and sci fi and big Hollywood blockbusters.

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tenia
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3156 Post by tenia » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:50 pm

From what I gathered, it was about 4-5% of the US 2019 physical market, a market which was itself only 17% to the total home video market.
UHD players sales are already declining, and every figure I've seen are below the original industry projections, which are each year adjusted to lower expectations (probably in order to keep being able to say "look how amazing these figures are !").

So not really a "massive growth" (well, yes, sure, but only because it's easy to double your market YtoY when you're only 2% of it). It's thus pure conjecture to guess production costs went down a lot (though I can ask around), and even more a conjecture that the new consoles provided a gigantic boost (especially the PS5 that only has been out for a few months !).

EDIT :
dwk wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:26 pm
I know that Blue Underground is also happy with their UHD numbers
I still wonder what those sales exactly are. I remember BU saying something like they sold more Maniac UHDs than they ever sold BDs of this movie, yet, it's a movie they released in 3 different BD releases over the past 10 years (4 if you count the one that came AFTER the UHD release), something that'd suggest around 6-10k copies at least. I vastly doubt BU sold that many UHDs of it.

It doesn't mean there is a market nice enough for niche labels. But it doesn't mean the market is getting massive. How many copies Cinema Paradiso sold ? Pitch Black ? Oldboy ? Crash ? For all we know, Arrow might be very happy because they've sold 1000 copies of each. Which is nice, I guess. But still only is a very niche market.
Last edited by tenia on Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3157 Post by EddieLarkin » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:53 pm

Not only does Mockingbird have obvious greater sales potential than ToE or DI, but it's also still only available on a pretty creaky old style Uni transfer that's been blasted with DNR at points, meaning the upgrade in quality potential is far greater too. It seems crazy that any label would pass up on it. Hopefully Universal will make these same titles available to Arrow for the Academy line.

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dwk
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3158 Post by dwk » Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:27 pm

tenia wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:50 pm
I still wonder what those sales exactly are. I remember BU saying something like they sold more Maniac UHDs than they ever sold BDs of this movie, yet, it's a movie they released in 3 different BD releases over the past 10 years (4 if you count the one that came AFTER the UHD release), something that'd suggest around 6-10k copies at least. I vastly doubt BU sold that many UHDs of it.

It doesn't mean there is a market nice enough for niche labels. But it doesn't mean the market is getting massive. How many copies Cinema Paradiso sold ? Pitch Black ? Oldboy ? Crash ? For all we know, Arrow might be very happy because they've sold 1000 copies of each. Which is nice, I guess. But still only is a very niche market.
I think that BU said that the UHD of Maniac was selling faster than the limited edition Blu-ray that they had released the year before, but I don't recall them saying it outsold all the previous Blu-rays.

When asked awhile back, Kino said they've sold 12,000 copies of Hannibal and 10,000 copies of Mad Max (which they added was selling faster than Hannibal.) So is, say, 12,000 to 15,000 copies the ceiling on UHD sales for boutique labels? Since Second Sight sold all 12,000 limited editions, how many copies of the standard UHD of Dawn of the Dead are they going to sell?

Vinegar Syndrome sold out of the 12,000 copy run of Rad, but that was only released as a dual format Blu-ray/UHD. So how many of those were purchased by people that wanted the Blu-ray and how many by people that wanted the UHD? (I am reminded of their separate releases of Tammy and the T-Rex,the Blu was outselling the UHD, so they took a number of the slipcovers from the UHD release and put them on the Blu-ray only release. So, how many copies of Tammy have they sold on Blu vs how many copies have they sold on UHD?)
EddieLarkin wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:53 pm
Not only does Mockingbird have obvious greater sales potential than ToE or DI, but it's also still only available on a pretty creaky old style Uni transfer that's been blasted with DNR at points, meaning the upgrade in quality potential is far greater too. It seems crazy that any label would pass up on it. Hopefully Universal will make these same titles available to Arrow for the Academy line.
Kino probably didn't want to pay for a new 4K scan and all the other costs to do a UHD of To Kill a Mockingbird.

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Ribs
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3159 Post by Ribs » Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:54 pm

15,000 sales is extremely high for any title that’s not a new release from a studio. The average Arrow or Criterion probably only moves 3K at the most in six months with exceptions for bigger titles. I highly doubt the average KLSC title moves more than 1,000 in that frame because of their quantity of output. If Mad Max sold 12k after two months there is no reason to assume its sales will particularly slow and it won’t be at 15 by six months, and maybe 20 at a year (that seems high but I wouldn’t put it out of the question). I remain so confused by the decision to lead with Hannibal, a movie just no one likes, as it seems to have instilled some hesitancy that they only now thought it at least testing the market further.

I find serious fault that several people seem insistent that the releases that have been succesful on 4K have only done so because of some weird circumstance and it doesn’t actually reflect the market; “how did Oldboy sell?” when all the Arrow LE UHDs (the only thing we are actually able with any authority judge how quickly they’ve sold) sold out near immediately, Vinegar Syndrome only offering one SKU making it that most people just wanted the movie and weren’t interested in the 4K. The labels that have committed are clearly all rapidly increasing their rate of 4K releases which should speak extremely strongly for how well they are performing. It’s just confusing Kino is playing hard to get with titles I imagine their competitors will jump through hoops to secure. I just find it so hard to reconcile consider how their main line of Blu-ray releases regularly releases titles with what to me would seem to have no commercial standing.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3160 Post by swo17 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:24 pm

Ribs wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:54 pm
all the Arrow LE UHDs sold out near immediately
Wait, what titles have sold out? I wanted to get some of those!

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Ribs
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3161 Post by Ribs » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:29 pm

Flash Gordon and Tremors are gone, and Demons is 90% sold and OOS from most anywhere that ships to the US. Crash I think is still available. I expect there will be standard releases soon as per normal (Flash Gordon actually had one to start).

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3162 Post by swo17 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:30 pm

Yikes, I'd better jump on Demons if I can find it

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dwk
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3163 Post by dwk » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:36 pm

Ribs wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:54 pm
15,000 sales is extremely high for any title that’s not a new release from a studio. The average Arrow or Criterion probably only moves 3K at the most in six months with exceptions for bigger titles. I highly doubt the average KLSC title moves more than 1,000 in that frame because of their quantity of output. If Mad Max sold 12k after two months there is no reason to assume its sales will particularly slow and it won’t be at 15 by six months, and maybe 20 at a year (that seems high but I wouldn’t put it out of the question). I remain so confused by the decision to lead with Hannibal, a movie just no one likes, as it seems to have instilled some hesitancy that they only now thought it at least testing the market further.

I find serious fault that several people seem insistent that the releases that have been succesful on 4K have only done so because of some weird circumstance and it doesn’t actually reflect the market; “how did Oldboy sell?” when all the Arrow LE UHDs (the only thing we are actually able with any authority judge how quickly they’ve sold) sold out near immediately, Vinegar Syndrome only offering one SKU making it that most people just wanted the movie and weren’t interested in the 4K. The labels that have committed are clearly all rapidly increasing their rate of 4K releases which should speak extremely strongly for how well they are performing. It’s just confusing Kino is playing hard to get with titles I imagine their competitors will jump through hoops to secure. I just find it so hard to reconcile consider how their main line of Blu-ray releases regularly releases titles with what to me would seem to have no commercial standing.
It appears Criterion sold 16,207 copies of Come and See, 16,163 of War of the Worlds, and 34,602 copies of Bruce Lee: His Greatest Hits during the week ending on July 19th. Granted it was during the B&N sale, but still those are impressive numbers.

We don't know the actual number of limited editions Arrow is producing for their UHDs. Are they doing 3,000? 2,500? 1000? And Arrow's limited editions almost always sell out quickly because of people's fear of missing out.

Vinegar Syndrome's Tammy is the only one where they had competing Blu-ray and UHD/Blu-ray releases, and, as I said, the Blu was outselling the UHD so they ended up putting the slipcovers designated for the UHD on the Blu-ray release. Their Beastmaster UHD sold half of its 10,000 copies pretty quickly, but they still have over 1,000 left. Their 3615 code Père Noël UHD still has over 1,000 units of its 5,000 copy slipcover run.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3164 Post by yoloswegmaster » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:52 pm

I'm pretty sure I read an article back in December saying that there weren't enough 4K blus being printed due to production problems, so that would more then likely be the reason a lot of Arrow 4K titles being OOS quickly. Though I did notice that Arrow put the Demons 4K set back on their site to preorder after taking it off a couple of days ago.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3165 Post by swo17 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:56 pm

I only see the Blu-ray edition on their site right now

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3166 Post by yoloswegmaster » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:03 pm

Oh shit, you're right. I saw it next to the Battle Royal 4K set, so I just assumed that it was the Demons 4K set.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3167 Post by fdm » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:13 pm

Ribs wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:29 pm
Flash Gordon and Tremors are gone, and Demons is 90% sold and OOS from most anywhere that ships to the US. Crash I think is still available. I expect there will be standard releases soon as per normal (Flash Gordon actually had one to start).
Tremors 4K isn't gone just yet, though I imagine it's close. Still some copies out there.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3168 Post by FrauBlucher » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:30 pm

But aren't these apples and oranges you folks are talking about. These horror/sci fi genre titles sell much better in the higher formats compared to the Old Classic Hollywood films, which I guess is what the KL Insider was making his point about

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3169 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:48 pm

yoloswegmaster wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:52 pm
I'm pretty sure I read an article back in December saying that there weren't enough 4K blus being printed due to production problems, so that would more then likely be the reason a lot of Arrow 4K titles being OOS quickly.
Tremors already went at least out of stock once on Amazon U.S. There was a window where you couldn't order it except from third-party sellers, then they put it back up for pre-order with copies shipping in late January. Now it's got the "usually ships within 1 to 2 months" that in my experience means it'll never ship, though (as noted) there are still copies available elsewhere. But it does seem that there were supply issues. I think the Flash Gordon LE was also out of stock at Amazon U.S. for a time before coming back.

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tenia
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3170 Post by tenia » Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:30 am

dwk wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:27 pm
I think that BU said that the UHD of Maniac was selling faster than the limited edition Blu-ray that they had released the year before, but I don't recall them saying it outsold all the previous Blu-rays.
I might have misunderstood BU then.
Ribs wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:54 pm
If Mad Max sold 12k after two months there is no reason to assume its sales will particularly slow and it won’t be at 15 by six months, and maybe 20 at a year (that seems high but I wouldn’t put it out of the question).
Actually, having followed Arrow LEs sales over time for as long as possible, it's clear that just like theatrical runs, there is a huge early peak followed by a longer but much slower trail. For Arrow for instance, their LEs sales are clearly peaking just after the pre-orders are open and then straight away declining after that. This goes for lower-regular batch sizes (2000-3000 copies) just like for bigger batch sizes (4000-10k copies), so it seems to be purely proportionnal overall (well, providing the batch size of the LE wasn't vastly under-/over-estimated).

For instance, it took 1.5 months of open pre-orders for Arrow to sell 70% of the American Werewolf LE run, but it took 2 additionnal months to sell only 10 additionnal % of it. It finally took 5 months to sell out. If we suppose a 5000 copies batch, this means going from 2300 sales/month to 250.
RoboCop LE, same thing : 50% sold out after 1 month, 70% after 3, 85% after 6, 90% after 12. It took in total 15 months to sell out. Again supposing 5000 copies : 2500 sales the 1st month, then 250/month over the next 5 months, then 50/month until selling out.
I sadly haven't kept my older file but IIRC, the Phantasm set sold very quickly (let's say 3 months) about 5000 copies. It took 4 times this time to sell out the other 5000 (14 months to sell out), so it went from an initial 1600 sales a month to 450.

Interested people clearly aren't waiting to buy those, just like they're not to see a movie in theater, and then the remaining trail clearly is much much slower.
Note however that technically, by assuming 12k after 2 months then 15k by 6 months, you're technically assuming a slow down (and not a small one at that). :wink:
Ribs wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:54 pm
I find serious fault that several people seem insistent that the releases that have been succesful on 4K have only done so because of some weird circumstance and it doesn’t actually reflect the market; “how did Oldboy sell?” when all the Arrow LE UHDs (the only thing we are actually able with any authority judge how quickly they’ve sold) sold out near immediately
As you wrote, Arrow is usually doing LEs runs around 3-5000 copies. Selling 10-15k is selling 3 times their usual batches, this in a much smaller market to people that possibly are re-re-upgrading a movie they already bought (so it comes with a negative psychological threshold for some).
I'm not saying a minute these are selling well because of "some weird circumstance", but that these very titles might not be representative of the UHD market, and even of the UHD indie market, for very good reasons but still. Flash Gordon for instance comes with a very specific fanbase in the US and the UK, certainly not the Star Wars or Star Trek one, but still. We don't have this in France and guess what : the UHD steelbook still is easily available (and probably hasn't been pressed at more than 5000 copies, probably just 3000 copies). Moreover, for Arrow, these are LEs, which is boosting their sales by a FOMO effect. Finally, I doubt an indie label would try to jumpstart their market with titles that aren't going to do massively well in sales. It's no wonder IMO that BU, for instance, started with Maniac and Zombi 2, probably their 2 best-sellers. And for Second Sight, Dawn of the Dead selling high is everything but a surprise. I'd do the same if I was them.

So I'm not asking "how Oldboy is selling" for mockery or party-pooping or dishonesty, but because such a release is taking all these extra factors out of the equation : the LE boost, the active fanbase, etc, and what you get is the more simple interest in the format and the upgrade it provides. Because as you wrote, selling 12-15k UHDs is extremely high. Within the labels themselves, it'd probably be record-sales even within BDs. So yeah, I do think these are outstanding figures (ie in a statistical meaning), for very concrete and real reasons, but outstanding nevertheless.

And even if those LEs (Flash, Tremors) are gone, I believe these were 5000-copies batches. Demons 1+2 is 4000 IIRC. Not 10-15k. And we said, that's only some of their LEs (and some of the LEs available), several other titles aren't even selling that.
FrauBlucher wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:30 pm
But aren't these apples and oranges you folks are talking about. These horror/sci fi genre titles sell much better in the higher formats compared to the Old Classic Hollywood films, which I guess is what the KL Insider was making his point about
Not only that but only the activity of the fanbase behind this genre currently, and even behind some of these specific movies currently. In France, Studio Canal have released quite a number of UHDs but only Evil Dead II and Total Recall sold out within a few weeks (and those are steelbooks so it probably helped thanks to the Steelbook crowd).


That's all I'm saying : I think we need to be cautious about niche labels being successful and what it means in terms of how big the total market actually is.
Of course, I might be wrong, but as a whole, for a market that has quite expanded in terms of number of releases (500 releases just in France), I'd need quite a hefty number of examples to find them representative.
This being written, this looks like a very interesting study to do, and I'll try to ask around to those concerned if they can give me some numbers to work with. I have some from France, and they definitely aren't anything to cheer about (outside studios and stuff like Avengers Endgame selling 31k UHDs in a month, we're talking about Studio Canal being happy with selling 1500 copies of the Rambo trilogy)).

It's also not a way for me to say "the market isn't viable". I'm seeing indies making it viable with 1000 copies. 1000. So there are ways to do money with it even by selling so few UHDs. But I just want to remember that making money with it doesn't equate selling dozens of thousands UHDs, because I see many enthusiasts seemingly thinking that's what it means, that some labels being successful means UHDs are flying off the shelves. I don't think they are. At all.


(NB : I'm trying not to come off as confrontational but am quite sure this post might look like this. This isn't my objective, and I hope it's clear I'm simply questioning how successful truly is the UHD market as a whole based on concrete figures, and whether niche labels happily operating within their niches means the sales figures are on average really massifying for them.)

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3171 Post by L.A. » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:57 pm

CineSavant review for So Evil My Love

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captveg
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3172 Post by captveg » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:13 pm

More OOP based on previously being in the "While Supplies Last" sale and now no longer appearing on the website:

Juggernaut (1974) (DVD still available)

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3173 Post by Glowingwabbit » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:27 pm

Surprised they wouldn't do these in multi-volume boxsets. I've only seen She Done Him Wrong which was awful enough that I never bothered to track down any more Mae West films. Are any of the others recommended? I do have the last film in a WC Fields boxset that I just haven't gotten to yet.

From the KLSC facebook page:
Coming June 29th!
NINE MAE WEST CLASSICS – First Time on Blu-ray!
NIGHT AFTER NIGHT (1932)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historians Alexandra Heller-Nicholas and Josh Nelson
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
SHE DONE HIM WRONG (1933)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian David Del Valle
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian Kat Ellinger
• Introduction by Turner Classic Movies Host Robert Osborne
• Bonus Cartoon: "She Done Him Right”
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
I’M NO ANGEL (1933)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian Samm Deighan
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
BELLE OF THE NINETIES (1934)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian Samm Deighan
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
GOIN’ TO TOWN (1935)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian Kat Ellinger
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
KLONDIKE ANNIE (1936)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historians Alexandra Heller-Nicholas and Josh Nelson
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
GO WEST YOUNG MAN (1936)
• Audio Commentary by Author/Film Historian Lee Gambin
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
EVERY DAY’S A HOLIDAY (1937)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historian Kat Ellinger
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films
MY LITTLE CHICKADEE (1940)
• Audio Commentary by Film Historians Alexandra Heller-Nicholas and Josh Nelson
• Trailers for 6 Mae West Films

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3174 Post by knives » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:33 pm

None of them I’ve seen have been any good though the Fields film at least has Fields to balance things out with.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#3175 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:41 pm

I'm the last person to ask since I'd rather listen to an anti-ASMR loop of nails on a chalkboard for 90 minutes than Mae West's voice, but I found nothing to like about I'm No Angel, which seems to be often considered one of her best, so perhaps it's worth tracking that one down to see how it sits

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