Criterion and UHD

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domino harvey
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#226 Post by domino harvey » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:31 am

mfunk9786 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:03 pm
They could literally go down to a single UHD/BD combo SKU and reduce their overall footprint and no one would say boo about it, everyone would be happy
I am going to quote this back to you once everyone starts griping about the coaster they don’t need just like they did for the Blu-Ray/DVD combos. What a horrible time to be alive those years were

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#227 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:54 am

soundchaser wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:28 am
Our library system still exclusively loans DVDs, so I suspect Criterion gets more sales from those than we’d imagine.
Our library does handle both blu-day and DVD, but definitely more of the latter. In general it’s amazing how many people think of DVD as the definitive format for physical media despite enjoying higher definition content on streaming platforms. For example nearly every time I have someone over and they see my collection, they refer to them all as DVDs despite my continually pointing out the difference, and I overhear, “I’ll wait till that comes out on DVD” almost universally from those I engage in discussions around film who aren’t collectors. I almost never hear people talk about blu-ray. I understand that Criterion collectors tend to be more passionate and knowledgeable about top quality PQ, but I’ve had plenty of folks request Criterion films as presents or ask eagerly for recommendations with an intention to purchase who only have a DVD player or more often a computer to watch discs on, and even some heavier collectors who choose DVD as a format. I almost always buy DVDs as birthday and Christmas presents for people for this reason, as many of them don’t even own blu-ray players (somehow).

This isn’t an argument against Criterion upgrading but in my experience a significant portion of the population of film-lovers default to DVD all these years later and don’t appear interested in the change. Just one man’s experience of course.

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movielocke
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Criterion and UHD

#228 Post by movielocke » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:09 am

swo17 wrote:If they can keep the MSRP for standard releases at $40
I think you’re definitely right that this would The the reason they can’t do blu uhd dual format

In 1998, they set prices at $39.99 adjusted for inflation, that’s bit over $63 in 2019. I sort of expect them to price UhDs at $49.99 given the manufacturing will be really expensive and they’re only going to sell a single digit percent of the Blu-ray numbers, so the base price has to be higher to Cover the lower unit sales. (I wouldn’t be surprised at a base price of $59.99 actually)

Titles with fanatical and broader customer bases like Wes Anderson or David Lynch might get a lower price because higher sales numbers are expected.

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movielocke
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Criterion and UHD

#229 Post by movielocke » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:22 am

Libraries, even big ones, are pretty price sensitive and mostly are exclusively dvd, here’s recent examples from la public library for four titles never before on disc in the US (or at least with no pre existing copies in their vast system)

Lowest MSRP
The inland sea - 28 copies

Highly awarded film (sight and sound)
Cloud capped star - 14 copies

Old Hollywood obscurity
Cluny Brown - 7 copies

Highest MSRP
Koker trilogy - 0 copies


It sort of suggests that they balk at buying most criterions because of the price, but are more likely to include films that are highly regarded possibly because they circulate more often than old Hollywood obscurities.

Beverly Hills public library has the biggest blu ray collection of any library I’ve ever seen, but then that is the rare library that has no price sensitivity at all.

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#230 Post by tenia » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:26 am

mfunk9786 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:24 pm
Seems like such a strange bet that Criterion won't eventually move on to a superior format that smaller boutique labels have already embraced.
Embraced is way too strong of a word. At best, most of them are still testing the format : in the US, Synapse has released 1, Kino 1, Shout only 12 documentary ones (in a very spaced-out way), VS will do Tammy and the T-Rex, and I think that's it. In France, TF1 released 3 catalogue titles (1 being Casino) and 1 non-catalogue, Pathé 2 (including Apocalypse Now), M6 1 catalogue and 1 non-catalogue (a 2nd one will arrive next year), Le chat qui fume 1, ESC 2 (Dawn of the Dead and Halloween) plus 1 upcoming one end of this year (Evil Dead) and Carlotta 1 (Christine, as part of a Collector's Edition, which is currently selling out - 3000 copies) and Metropolitan a few but only new Lionsgate titles like John Wick 3. Studio Canal are the biggest UHD conveyors in France and, well, they're not small at all. Second Sight will release 1 (Dawn of the Dead), Dogwoof 1 (Apollo 11) and that's it for the UK. Capelight did a few in Germany (Burning, Oldboy and soon Rollerball, and they only started in June 2019 so it's very new).

None are releasing catalogue movies on UHDs on a regular basis. Almost none are releasing UHDs on a regular basis, actually, except Metropolitan and possibly Capelight.
mfunk9786 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:55 pm
It's also improving. UHD is just as much of an improvement over Blu-ray as it was over DVD - a quadrupling of resolution. The idea that Criterion would be embracing of the initial format change and then resistant to this one doesn't make much sense. Just because this hasn't happened yet is no evidence that it's never going to happen. I've beaten this same drum in this thread before, but if you consider yourself a skeptic of this inevitability, take a look at the first few pages of the thread on Criterion and Blu-ray before you recycle any of the same talking points from a decade+ ago
Yes and no.
UHD isn't just as much of an improvement : it quadruples the resolution, but also offers HDR and WCG, while BD didn't upgrade colors over DVD.
But 3 things are compensating for that :
- you have to buy everything or nothing at all if you want to get technical with SDR conversions and face problematic contrast/brightness, meaning you can't smooth purchases over time.
- law of dimishing returns.
- there's no general reason for people who didn't bother upgrading to BD discs to bother upgrading to UHD discs, making it a niche of a niche.
mfunk9786 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:55 pm
Also worth noting that it's now been confirmed that both the new Xbox and new Playstation, which will be released next year in October or November, will have an on-board UHD drive (and right now, the Xbox One already does for the refreshed S and X models).
There was already a HUGE difference in how PS2 boosted DVD vs how PS3 "boosted" BD. As such, it's quite clear that there is a non-negligible split between owning a VG console with a BD player and those actually using this to play BD. The same will happen for UHD, probably in a worse version of it.
swo17 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:19 pm
ost, what, 6x DVDs in terms of manufacturing? That certainly kept away labels like Second Run for many years. I don't know what those metrics are for UHD currently but no way Criterion seriously commits to this format until the manufacturing costs come down to the point where it makes sense financially, if that happens at all.
The French specialised magazine Les années Laser looked in April 2019 at production costs for DVD, BD and UHD. There are 4 main cost factors : Premastering, mastering, pressing (they choose 5000 copies as a per-unit price) and logistics (including transportation). The figures were :
DVD : 600-2000€ / 150€ / 0.5-0.6€ per unit / 0.7-1€ per unit = 0.12-0.4 + 0.03 + 0.5-0.6 + 0.7-1 = 1.35-2.03€ per DVD
BD: 1000-3000€ / 850€ / 0.9-1.2€ / 0.7-1€ = 0.2-0.6 + 0.17 + 0.9-1.2 + 0.7-1 = 1.97-2.97€ per BD
UHD : 8000-20000€ / 2000€ / 2-3€ / 0.7-1€ = 1.6-4 + 0.4 + 2-3 + 0.7-1 = 4.7-8.4€ per UHD

Even if reasoning that the market is well below 5000 copies batch runs for boutique labels, that still gives a UHD costing at least 1.6 times more than a BD, and possibly 4.3 times more.
Manufacturers offer packs to reduce costs, but even so, a DVD still costs 50-60cts, a BD 0.9-1.2€ and a UHD 2-3€ so a similar cost difference remains between BD and UHD (between 1.66 and 3.33 times more).
swo17 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:17 pm
If they can keep the MSRP for standard releases at $40
Technically, their MSRP should be high enough already to absorb UHD costs (compared to other labels around), but I doubt they'd keep it and like movielocke, I suspect they would instead increase it by $10. The real question being however the price people will pay in the end (since it's not MSRP anyway), and how many of them would buy UHD (which will obviously answer how much price need to compensate for smaller sales).

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senseabove
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#231 Post by senseabove » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:40 am

therewillbeblus wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:54 am
Our library does handle both blu-day and DVD, but definitely more of the latter. In general it’s amazing how many people think of DVD as the definitive format for physical media despite enjoying higher definition content on streaming platforms. For example nearly every time I have someone over and they see my collection, they refer to them all as DVDs despite my continually pointing out the difference, and I overhear, “I’ll wait till that comes out on DVD” almost universally from those I engage in discussions around film who aren’t collectors. I almost never hear people talk about blu-ray.
There's a part of me that thinks a non-negligible reason for BR's lack of traction with the general, unconcerned populace is that it doesn't have so handy and brief a written name as DVD, nor does "blu-ray" roll off the tongue well enough to trump the convenience of so similar a concept and so universally adopted a product. But if that had any validity, "HD-DVD" probably should've won the format wars just for familiarity's sake...

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#232 Post by tenia » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:17 am

I do think BD is just overkill for 80% of the general audience, and there isn't much more to it than this.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#233 Post by Noiradelic » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:31 am

For many, DVD was the trendy way to consume movies in the 2000s, till streaming overtook it -- obviously BD has never had that cultural impact.

TwoTecs wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:21 pm
I think it will be a while before they start putting out UHDs for their whole monthly slate so I don't think the workload increase will be 50%.
They didn't even release their whole slate on BD for a while.

For combo packs I wonder if it makes more sense to package UHD and BD together then bringing back BD-DVD dual formats. People who are still buying DVDs are hopeless and they are not going to upgrade if they haven't already. Its those BD player owners that needed to pushed/enticed towards upgrading.

This is also what major studios have been doing where they have started packaging updated BDs with UHDs without releasing them standalone. It will futureproof the buyers without forcing them to upgrade or making them anxious about double dipping.
My impression was the single biggest factor in killing the dual-format was libraries and universities. UHD/BD dual format wouldn't have those issues. Assume DVD buyers not wanting to pay an extra $10 for a BD disc they wouldn't use was up there too. If CC were somehow able to keep the $40 SRP, ramping up UHD would be a lot easier, but that doesn't sound practical. The first few years Criterion were putting out BD, there was a market for them among BD collectors who wouldn't ordinarily buy the films, because they were hungry for older titles -- anything in addition to current product -- on BD. UHD collectors, though obviously a smaller group, are probably even more hungry for older titles. Criterion buyers have been somewhat conditioned to pay $50 SRP for 2-BD titles. If Criterion customers who have gone UHD or are considering it are willing to fork over $50 for Othello and On the Waterfront, they might be willing to pay $50 for a high-profile UHD like a Wes Anderson. I think eventually they'll release some titles on UHD, because Criterion is not going to abandon physical media in the foreseeable future and, maybe, not as long as they're in business.

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#234 Post by tenia » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:54 am

They indeed stopped doing DVD-only releases (outside Eclipse sets) in August 2010, 18 months after their first BD release.

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TwoTecs
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#235 Post by TwoTecs » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:14 pm

bugsy_pal wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:21 am
I think that Criterion will only put out UHD versions for selected titles that can clearly benefit from the extra resolution, eg. Grand Budapest Hotel. I'm not sure whether it would be worth it for something like Mean Streets - not sure if the film has enough resolution to benefit, but perhaps the colour would be improved. As for Citizen Kane - I'd love to see what UHD could do for the film, but it may not be much of an improvement over the lovely Warner bluray...
Mean Streets was shot on 35 mm. GBH might look cleaner because of the difference in lenses but resolution wise they are the same (ofc Mean Streets, being 1.85, is cropped more). UHD just does a way better job of handling grain and if encoded properly, the compression is much better than BD. The color and contrast most definitely would be improved as UHD does a better job at reproducing the color depth of film.

Not that I am saying that it would be feasible for every film to get a UHD release but any film competently shot on 35mm will benefit from one.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#236 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:22 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:31 am
mfunk9786 wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:03 pm
They could literally go down to a single UHD/BD combo SKU and reduce their overall footprint and no one would say boo about it, everyone would be happy
I am going to quote this back to you once everyone starts griping about the coaster they don’t need just like they did for the Blu-Ray/DVD combos. What a horrible time to be alive those years were
Oh dude, quote away - of course this would happen, "everyone would be happy" was said with my tongue in my cheek. That being said, the combos were great the first time around and Criterion should have never relented. If they're not releasing every title in UHD right away, it seems like the ideal solution to just bundle it with the Blu-ray release (or vice versa, however you look at it). And an MSRP bump to $45 might be inevitable anyway somewhere down the line, but I don't see a reason why they couldn't do this and stay at $40...
movielocke wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:09 am
swo17 wrote:If they can keep the MSRP for standard releases at $40
In 1998, they set prices at $39.99 adjusted for inflation, that’s bit over $63 in 2019.
Right. It makes little sense that we'd never see the prices creep up - UHD being part of some of them might be a nice way to soften the blow of an increase to $45 or $50 as the standard MSRP.

As for libraries... I guess I would need to see some sort of data on how many DVDs they still sell, and what the impact would be if they got rid of those SKUs. My guess: Most libraries would keep buying the Blu-ray copies and the world would keep spinning.
Noiradelic wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:31 am
For many, DVD was the trendy way to consume movies in the 2000s, till streaming overtook it -- obviously BD has never had that cultural impact.
Which is why I might be way off base talking about UHD - it's possible they've just decided that Criterion Channel is the better future proofing measure and they're just going to wait and see on the future of physical media.

But so long as they're committed to physical media, why not keep up with advancements in it?

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#237 Post by TwoTecs » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:39 pm

Odd to hear how the LA Library only buys DVDs since the Winnipeg library has a good collection of Criterion blus. Not comprehensive by any means but they do act on requests. They also purchase new films on BD and from the number of holds on them, they seem to be quite popular.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#238 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:50 pm

You guys have a much healthier relationship with taxes and public services than we do down here

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movielocke
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#239 Post by movielocke » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:45 pm

TwoTecs wrote:Odd to hear how the LA Library only buys DVDs since the Winnipeg library has a good collection of Criterion blus. Not comprehensive by any means but they do act on requests. They also purchase new films on BD and from the number of holds on them, they seem to be quite popular.
The LA city library system is serving a population of 4-11 million (there’s only four million people in la city, but anyone can use their library and get a card, like me I’m not in the city of la), and in addition to the LA city library system there is also the LA county library (la county library is also dvd only, LA county is population 11 million) and I also have a library system in my local suburb (which carries Blu-rays of stuff with significant teen appeal (Harry Potter’s, anime, comic book movies) But is otherwise vast majority dvd.

So these are huge systems serving massive numbers of people, and the best way to serve their needs is to provide the most universal format on the market, not the best format, that the universal format is ALSO the most cost effective format is a significant bonus.

And while most democrat presidential candidates would be surprised that a public service like the library is universal and rich people can use it too (since we know that the rational moderate position is that we should never provide any universal program if rich people are also allowed to participate!), many of a libraries regular users don’t have disposable income to spend on permanent purchase for their media consumption habits, and many people who do have such disposable income, tend not to patronize a library these days—these conditions create a feedback loop reinforcing the further need to stay dvd only, because the people who might want blu aren’t coming to the library and they don’t stock blu so the people who want it don’t come.

And like any large library program they have to engage in regular weeding, so five years from now all the copies of the inland sea that haven’t been checked out once in the last three years will be weeded and put on sale, (except for probably one copy in the main branch).

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#240 Post by Nw_jahrles » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:51 am

Boutique Label UHD Watch

Vinegar Syndrome just had a Black Friday update and announced that the DVD/Blu-Ray edition of Tammy and the T-Rex was selling “considerably faster” than the Blu-Ray/4K UHD edition. So much so that they are transferring slipcases from the UHD edition to the DVD/Blu Ray edition to fulfill orders. It will be interesting to see if they continue to test the UHD market in 2020.

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dwk
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#241 Post by dwk » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:16 am

According to Vinegar Syndrome's schedule, they are going to release 1 UHD in May 2020, 1 UHD in October 2020 and 2 UHDs in November 2020. They can obviously end up scrapping those, but that is what they have planned.

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#242 Post by tenia » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:57 am

They also just stated their Tammy and the T-Rex BD is selling much faster than the UHD combo so they're going to take some slipcovers of the UHD combos and allocate them to the BDs instead.

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Luke M
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#243 Post by Luke M » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:23 am

VS's website shows they have 459 in stock of the 4K version but only 40 of the regular blu-ray. I would've thought more people would've went for the 4K but I imagine the adoption just isn't there yet.

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swo17
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#244 Post by swo17 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:41 am

Doesn't help that the UHD combo is priced 40% higher.

To think that the viability of this format to boutique labels worldwide could be decided by people who think Tammy and the T-Rex is worth owning

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#245 Post by Glowingwabbit » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:43 am

Not really surprising considering the UHD cost $35 and Is still very much a niche within a niche market.

Although I cant imagine paying $25 let alone $35 for that title so maybe this is a bad example.

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#246 Post by tenia » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:47 am

There are many factors : the $34.99 remains quite steep for a market which remains mostly driven by studios who can offer UHD combos for cheaper prices (closer to $20-25 than $35), there is a noticeably cheaper non-UHD release for all those only interested in the BD (or, even, just the DVD), and, well, it remains Tammy and the T-Rex overall. Even if VS seemed to have been able to sell surprisingly high quantities of their releases considering the movies they're dealing with, I would have been very surprised if such a UHD would have sold quickly its 3000 copies.

The issue now is that since they're changing the slipcovers allocations, the "457 copies left" (at the moment) doesn't seem to represent accurately how many UHD combos they've sold.

EDIT : beaten by everyone about the price.
swo17 wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:41 am
To think that the viability of this format to boutique labels worldwide could be decided by people who think Tammy and the T-Rex is worth owning
I do hope other boutique labels are not looking at Tammy and the T-Rex sales to decide whether or not THEY should at least give a try. Well, except Arrow, maybe.

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#247 Post by Calvin » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:51 pm

Synapse's Suspiria might provide them with a better measure. Any word on how that one is selling?

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Re: Criterion and UHD

#248 Post by EddieLarkin » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:45 pm

Suspiria has an even higher retail price ($60 vs. Tammy's $50), but we are not comparing like for like. The Tammy UHD is currently available only in its Limited Edition 3D Slipcover form, and only through the VS webstore. Eventually VS will release a standard UHD with no slipcover, available from everywhere. Suspiria on the otherhand is already available in its only planned (non-LE) edition, and is thus already available everywhere. I imagine VS are only going to judge the success of this release on UHD once the standard edition is available.

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#249 Post by tenia » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:28 pm

Synpase might get burnt with Suspiria though as they've been repeatedly saying over the past years "we don't plan this or that" only to later release those.
I wouldn't be surprised Suspiria gets a non-LE UHD re-release in the near future, or at least that some customers will be waiting for one instead of buying the current LE release (which also doesnt even include the movie on BD despite its price).

In any case, you're right about the probable wait for slightly longer term figures to assess the market.

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Luke M
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#250 Post by Luke M » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:50 pm

Luke M wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:23 am
VS's website shows they have 459 in stock of the 4K version but only 40 of the regular blu-ray. I would've thought more people would've went for the 4K but I imagine the adoption just isn't there yet.
Tammy and the T-Rex now showing 246 left of the 4K and 216 of the blu-ray. Seems they moved about 200 slipcovers?

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