Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

News on Criterion and Janus Films.
Post Reply
Message
Author
mikeyzjames
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:17 pm

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1201 Post by mikeyzjames » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:25 am

vsski wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:49 am
swo17 wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:16 am
vsski, what are the canonical titles that are available to be released that Criterion should have been releasing this past year?
I'm not up to date with all the right's issues, but I would have hoped by now to see more Truffauts (upgrades and new titles), some Chabrols (not sure they really don't like him), more Resnais, definitely more Kurosawas (but Michael may be correct that Toho is the problem), more Mizoguchis, at least some Naruses (I still refuse to believe that he would sell less than Man Push Cart), more Oshimas, some more Ozus, some of the early Viscontis, although the materials may not be up to snuff, some more Rosselinis, some Francesco Rosis, more Almodovars (surely they still have his licenses), some of the silent Hitchcocks (although they may not have more, I'm not sure), more World Cinema, some of the older Scorseses, some early Wenders, more Rohmers, some silent Hollywood and some more classic Hollywood, although they have published a few nice ones in recent years.
I think the issue is that there are very few major gaps for most of those filmmakers. Some of them are clearly trickling out slowly, but I just don't know if we can expect more than 1 film a year from most "canonical" directors (we've had Death in Venice and The Damned from Visconti, fwiw; we've also had the Rohmer blu upgrade with the 4 seasons films imminent). Some of them are more perplexing than others: I think the very slow roll-out of the Almodovars, even though we know they have plans to release most of them, is really frustrating. But for others, it sort of makes sense. Like, what's the market for The Story of Adele H or one of the Rosselinis that hasn't been released?

I think the overall argument is especially strange because I've found this last year or two to be some of the most exciting releases in a very long time. Of course this is a question of the way we make canons but also the age of the people programming. Clearly, hiring Ashley Clark has changed some of the emphasis, and in particular, I think we've seen a huge shift into the way younger cinephiles view film history. It's interesting that you mentioned something like Throw Down as a type of release that doesn't fit the normal Criterion paradigm, but for a lot of people I've seen, that is a massive release because Johnnie To is a massive, massive filmmaker, especially for younger cinephiles. For me, that shows the Criterion is starting to recognize how things are changing and what younger cinephiles think is important. And to be fair, I think a release like Deep Cover, for example, is way more exciting than a potential release by nearly any of the directors you've mentioned, even though I love most of them and am anxious for more of their films. But watching Deep Cover, in the context of a Criterion release, was one of the best viewing experiences I've had recently. I'm happy that they are starting to re-examine their blindspots and re-claim some of these films that always should have been revered.

User avatar
Finch
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:09 pm
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1202 Post by Finch » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:28 am

Are there even Japanese BDs of any of Naruse's films?

My stance on Criterion's release slate is I buy about 70-80% of what they release each year so I can live with some titles not stoking my interest. I do wish they'd hurry up with upgrading Coup de Torchon though, and Pepe Le Moko.

Re the silent Hitchs, presumably the UK rights are mostly with Studio Canal and if they can't be bothered to put them out given the time that has passed since the 2k restorations originally were completed, they should hand them out to another UK company that cares (Indicator, Arrow, BFI, Network).

artfilmfan
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:11 pm

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1203 Post by artfilmfan » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:38 am

Tommaso wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:31 am
Given that the interest in Naruse isn't as strong as it should be, I don't think that it would be a good idea for Criterion to put the same films out again. If any new Naruse release can somewhat recuperate the investment for the company, it will need to be of a title/titles that would also be a must-buy for those that actually already have the MoC and BFI sets. And there are so many Naruse films around that would deserve a first release in the west.
Of the 30 or so Naruse films that I have seen, to me, the six films that are in the BFI and MoC sets and Scattered Clouds are the best ones. I was not thinking of Criterion releasing them in the same quality of the two sets mentioned here. Part of the reason that I believe and hope that Criterion will someday release them is I think these films need to be restored. I think a lot of the people who already bought those two sets will buy Criterion Blu-ray releases of the restored films. And I think these films would be a better introduction of Naruse to those who have not “discovered” him.

User avatar
vsski
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1204 Post by vsski » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:51 am

Wasn’t there a French Carlotta set of Naruse Blus? Since it didn’t have English subs, I don’t know anything more about it, and it may have been just upscales.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1205 Post by tenia » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:57 am

There was a 5-movies Naruse boxset in France from Carlotta, though at least 3 of those clearly were dated mediocre masters and the other 2 weren't new but were much more decent in HD. In any case, none were new restorations, that's for sure.

User avatar
vsski
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1206 Post by vsski » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:07 pm

mikeyzjames wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:25 am
Clearly, hiring Ashley Clark has changed some of the emphasis, and in particular, I think we've seen a huge shift into the way younger cinephiles view film history. It's interesting that you mentioned something like Throw Down as a type of release that doesn't fit the normal Criterion paradigm, but for a lot of people I've seen, that is a massive release because Johnnie To is a massive, massive filmmaker, especially for younger cinephiles. For me, that shows the Criterion is starting to recognize how things are changing and what younger cinephiles think is important. And to be fair, I think a release like Deep Cover, for example, is way more exciting than a potential release by nearly any of the directors you've mentioned, even though I love most of them and am anxious for more of their films. But watching Deep Cover, in the context of a Criterion release, was one of the best viewing experiences I've had recently. I'm happy that they are starting to re-examine their blindspots and re-claim some of these films that always should have been revered.
That’s a great point which I have been wondering about for a while. It’s quite clear from my post that I belong to the older generation here, and younger audiences may indeed look at film history very differently, I certainly don’t know what is being taught today.
But I still find it strange to believe, that some indie movie is being published because it sells more than an upgrade or new print of one of the old masters - if this is true, and many posts here indicate that there is no longer a profitable market for these older titles, then yes the landscape of releases will continue to drastically change.

I own about every English friendly BD of Johnnie To, but Thrown Down, of which I have the MOC, is probably my least favorite, but again that may be a generational thing or a genre issue (hand to hand martial arts combat has never been my cup of tea).

Deep Cover is exciting and I will pick that up.

Hopefully folks are correct that Criterion is planning another big box set.
Last edited by vsski on Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1207 Post by tenia » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:09 pm

Remember that Criterion's economy is particular in the way that unlike many indie labels, they rely a lot on DVD and have a more mainstream market. This means that while huge usual titles are likely to keep selling again and again, the same way that the Kubricks are cash cows for Warner, yes, new inclusions are likely to do sales at least comparable if not better than what remains for most "another release of stuff already available". It's also possible that newer movies appeal differently than what could be deemed by some as "old stuff in B&W".

All this to say that it's possible, but also more complex than what seem to be a huge opportunity of a canonical director vs small indie thingies.
vsski wrote: For what it's worth, I own the Arrow Rivette and Fassbinder boxes and many more of their old Academy Line, I also own the French Rohmer box. In the past two years I bought more than 300 discs, about 100 from Indicator (mostly thanks to the great supplements that I sometimes like more than the movies themselves - a big thank you to MichaelB who has a hand in this), about 50 each from the BFI, MOC/Eureka and Arrow and about 30 from Second Run and Third Window. And from Criterion I bought exactly zero.
Despite my love for UK labels and the latest difficulties at getting Criterion discs at a price close to what it was in the past, I still bought numerous Criterion discs of movies released nowhere else I could use : Company, the Marlon Riggs set, Bamboozled, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Working Girls, Bringing Up Baby, History is Made at Night, The Inland Sea, Paris Is Burning, Tunes of Glory, The Ascent, The Lady Eve, Husbands, The Cameraman, Beau travail, Now Voyager, Polyester, The Daytrippers, When We Were Kings, The Kid Brother, Hedwig and the Angry Inch or Klute. High Sierra and Citizen Kane are pre-ordered and I have plenty of stuff I'm hoping to catch at some point like The Parallax View, Matewan, Nightmare Alley, Wanda, Devi, Ghost Dog or Fists in the Pocket.

These are all recent releases (2-3 years old top), and they show how Criterion still release tons of stuff that are nowhere else available and would certainly be deemed are perfectly worthy of a purchase (or at least a look).

And in my case, the Marlon Riggs set is likely to be one of my favourite 2021 release, full stop.

Glowingwabbit
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 1:27 pm

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1208 Post by Glowingwabbit » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:19 pm

vsski wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:36 am
For what it's worth, I own the Arrow Rivette and Fassbinder boxes and many more of their old Academy Line, I also own the French Rohmer box. In the past two years I bought more than 300 discs, about 100 from Indicator (mostly thanks to the great supplements that I sometimes like more than the movies themselves - a big thank you to MichaelB who has a hand in this), about 50 each from the BFI, MOC/Eureka and Arrow and about 30 from Second Run and Third Window. And from Criterion I bought exactly zero.
That makes zero sense even with your rigid view of "what is canon". They've literally released titles in that span from directors you've specifically mentioned as wanting to see more of; so I'm completely confused by your stance. I also think you put Criterion on too high of a pedestal (which is silly as they've been surpassed as the gold standard imo) because those companies also release titles that you wouldn't think belong in the Criterion collection.

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1209 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:04 pm

Finch wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:28 am
Are there even Japanese BDs of any of Naruse's films?
Not that I have heard about.

artfilmfan -- While the 6 films released by MOC and BFI are certainly among Naruse's very best -- I think he has a lot more "indispensable" films. I really do suspect that the "tone" of his films is so unique that most viewers never quite get what he is doing. (And that has been true since he started making his films -- see his first boss at Shochiku's hostile/dismissive attitude).

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1210 Post by MichaelB » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:22 pm

Finch wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:28 am
Re the silent Hitchs, presumably the UK rights are mostly with Studio Canal and if they can't be bothered to put them out given the time that has passed since the 2k restorations originally were completed, they should hand them out to another UK company that cares (Indicator, Arrow, BFI, Network).
They're split roughly 50-50 between StudioCanal (4) and ITV (5), depending on whether the films were originally made for British International Pictures or Gainsborough.

So Network (which has released The Lodger) is the only viable label to handle The Pleasure Garden, Downhill, Champagne or Easy Virtue in the UK, as they're the only label that has a deal with ITV - which is only interested in huge bulk licensing arrangements that are quite beyond the financial or logistical resources of other boutique labels.

artfilmfan
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:11 pm

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1211 Post by artfilmfan » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:42 pm

Michael- I agree that there are many more indispensable films that Naruse made. And I want to own as many Naruse films as possible. But I think Naruse needs a proper (re)introduction. And what better way to do so than having his best and most popular films on Criterion Blu-rays with commentaries from people like David Bordwell, Tony Rayns and perhaps Catherine Russell? And as a special bonus, maybe an essay from you on why Naruse is your second most favorite director ;)

I have always wished to hear a commentary on Floating Clouds by Danald Richie. My wish is that Criterion has been quietly working on the Naruse films for quite a long time such that they got him to record a commentary before his passing.

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1212 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:56 pm

In some ways I think maybe the perfect introduction to Naruse might be a film NOT available in subbed form yet -- Lightning. It has enough clear humor (similar to many other films, but just a bit more overt) in the mix to get people to start understanding that Naruse does have his own sly, understated brand of (intermittent) humor to watch out for. And it has a clear presentation of an important recurring Naruse motif -- a woman refusing to give in (despite the odds against her) and actually making some (at least small) progress (at least in this instance). (Maybe it is the Naruse equivalent of starting with Good Morning -- which I am glad I did).

Anyone wanting any Naruse mini-seminars -- please feel free to post in the Naruse thread in the Directors section (and drop me a message -- just in case I don't notice it right away). ;-)

User avatar
vsski
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1213 Post by vsski » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:41 pm

Glowingwabbit wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:19 pm
That makes zero sense even with your rigid view of "what is canon". They've literally released titles in that span from directors you've specifically mentioned as wanting to see more of; so I'm completely confused by your stance. I also think you put Criterion on too high of a pedestal (which is silly as they've been surpassed as the gold standard imo) because those companies also release titles that you wouldn't think belong in the Criterion collection.
I never said that they are still the gold standard and fully agree that other labels have surpassed them or at least drawn even when it comes to lovely curated editions.

And I did say that Criterion is only about 15% of my movie collection.
I will eventually buy the movies they have published in the last two years that fall under my rigid definition, but once you stop collecting spines, the urgency to buy a title immediately goes away.

I’m really surprised that my post caught so much attention. I started by saying the last month of announcements is one that I felt brought back the old Criterion that I used to love and that I felt has disappeared. Many people here seem to feel that my argument is wrong and Criterion hasn’t changed - at least not as much as I feel they have - and they have never been a company that focused primarily on the canonical titles as I defined them - and many had good and credible arguments, so maybe they are correct.

This was never about being right, but my own personal opinion and feeling. I stated that I felt their release slate has changed, and was curious how others felt and they clearly do not share my sentiment, great, and that’s all there is to it.
But even if my feeling is incorrect, it was enough for me to bring a 20+ year collecting streak to an end and unless you are a collector, it’s hard to understand how big a deal this is.

Anyhow, I will move forward doing what probably the majority of people are doing on this forum, selectively buy from Criterion the titles I’m interested in.
Michael Kerpan wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:56 pm
Anyone wanting any Naruse mini-seminars -- please feel free to post in the Naruse thread in the Directors section (and drop me a message -- just in case I don't notice it right away). ;-)
And I’d love to hear from Michael about Naruse, one of my favorite directors, who I can’t see and hear enough about. 😃

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1214 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:51 pm

Naruse Lesson One -- Naruse makes mediocre Ozu movies but excellent Naruse movies. Discuss. (But not in THIS thread).

FWIW -- I have never been a DVD/BluRay collector -- only a movie collector (mostly by director, sometimes by star or cinematographer, very occasionally by music composer).

User avatar
soundchaser
Leave Her to Beaver
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:32 am

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1215 Post by soundchaser » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:48 am

On Rivette specifically: I don’t know what else Criterion COULD release from him. Maybe they’d license Va savoir from Sony, but I don’t see it happening. Everything else is tied up with Cohen, released by Arrow or Kino or Cinema Guild, or, in the case of L’amour fou, in restoration limbo. I, too, bemoan the lack of Rivette on Blu-Ray, but Criterion’s hands are mostly tied there. I’m sure that’s the case for a lot of filmmakers’ work.

User avatar
jegharfangetmigenmyg
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:52 am

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1216 Post by jegharfangetmigenmyg » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:58 am

I guess I'm somewhere on the middleground here. I agree with vsski in that there has certainly been a shift in the way, Criterion prioritizes their titles and in what they release. Generally, I'm all for overlooked gems getting unearthed, but I'm also getting older, have kids and not so much time for going through movies anymore, so overall, I'd rather watch a classic / masterpiece than a historical curiosity such as Girlfriends. Just to take an example.

Regarding the discussion about the pantheon directors, there are certainly some are still not getting the recognition they deserve. I know that most of his titles are stuck in StudioCanal land, but Renoir's filmography is certainly overlooked on blu-ray in the collection. What have we? 4 or 5 titles? Some from older masters. Then there's Ozu[, yes, and what about the Dreyer box? I know that the Danish Film Institute recently did a 4K scan of Ordet (maybe also Day of Wrath and Getrud) which hasn't been released anywhere yet. And Antonioni? Only his most hailed works have been restored. Where's a new scan of Red Desert? Il grido, perhaps?

Personally, I'd much rather that Criterion focused on releasing films of as many different nationalities as possible, rather than focusing on gender and skin colour. Being an American company, I can understand that that's not what bothers most people these days. They did that somewhat by releasing the world cinema boxes, but those were very obscure titles, for sure. But I'm still crossing fingers for Angelopoulos getting the treatment some day. Or they could dig up an even more obscure and overlooked favorite of mine, Delvaux. Now I'm just dreaming, though.

Glowingwabbit
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 1:27 pm

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1217 Post by Glowingwabbit » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:21 am

jegharfangetmigenmyg wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:58 am
Or they could dig up an even more obscure and overlooked favorite of mine, Delvaux. Now I'm just dreaming, though.
I'd love some Delvaux too. Sadly he's definitely too obscure for Criterion. The DVD set is quite nice. I'm not familiar enough with Cinematek to know whether an upgraded blu-ray set would ever happen.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1218 Post by MichaelB » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:15 am

Someone was urging Indicator to release a Delvaux box the other week, but this was hugely wishful thinking: that kind of project doesn't remotely fit their 99% English-language catalogue. Or, I strongly suspect, their budget.

User avatar
jegharfangetmigenmyg
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:52 am

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1219 Post by jegharfangetmigenmyg » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:31 am

Really, Michael? That would have been awesome, but definitely not a big seller!

The Belgian Cinematek boxset was definitely pleasing in that they had restored the films, but it was released a long time ago on the now obsolete dvd-format. Also, weirdly enough, all but the first two of the films were cropped from their native "European widescreen" aspect ratios of 1.66:1 of to standard tv widescreen 1.78:1, and it shows from tops of heads being cropped. I'm not sure of the OAR for his final film, The Abyss, but all the others are definitely 1.66. Finally, the box didn't contain my favorite Delvaux, One Night...A Train. A user posted a trailer for a new 4K restoration of The Man Who Had Cut His Hair Short, so maybe the Cinematek is going through and restoring his filmography again? Hopefully, one of the labels will pick up on this in the future. Remember that Anna Karina is starring in Appointment at Bray and Anouk Aimée and Montand in One Night, so there's definitely some star quality pull in some of the films as well.

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1220 Post by swo17 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:21 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:15 am
that kind of project doesn't remotely fit their 99% English-language catalogue
I know it's only 1%, but this is the cost of releasing Irreversible--never having done something is a far stronger argument than merely seldom having done it. Actions have consequences and cannot be reversed!

User avatar
Maltic
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:36 am

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1221 Post by Maltic » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:29 pm

At least the title didn't need translation (save for the removal of a diacritic)

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1222 Post by swo17 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:14 pm

On the contrary, it had all them weird foreign reverse letters, that even spread like a virus to the Indicator ident

User avatar
vsski
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: Criterion Discussion and Random Speculation Volume 7

#1223 Post by vsski » Mon May 16, 2022 5:37 pm

For me this month is a clear sign as to how much Criterion’s release strategy has changed. I know many felt that I was too narrow minded when I said many months ago that I miss the canonical titles Criterion was famous for, but when I look at this month’s titles with the exception of Hotel Du Nord (which has long been released elsewhere), I see so little of interest that even Kino Lorber, my least favorite boutique label, looks tempting. A very disappointing trend continues.

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1224 Post by swo17 » Mon May 16, 2022 5:58 pm

I know, feels like years since they've announced something canonical like Raging Bull or Pink Flamingos or Double Indemnity

User avatar
Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: Why Won't They Release Only What I Want?

#1225 Post by Gregory » Mon May 16, 2022 6:14 pm

Frownland is in my canon.

Post Reply